East Midlands Franchise 2019-

OrangeJuice · 25 Nov 2018

323235 said:
Why does it need to replace Northern's Crewe - Manchester Airport service? I would have thought the intention would be to have extra connectivity per hour to the Airport avoid Piccadilly and not have a regional service wasting time calling at local stations Crewe - Airport.

Whilst I think the additional train to Manchester Airport from Crewe will be very useful I think the capacity between Crewe and Wilmslow will struggle a lot when/if HS2 phase 2a does open to Crewe in 2027

RailUK Forums

The Ham · 25 Nov 2018

Tomnick said:
Yes, the proposed route would avoid Birmingham, instead going via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby...

(in all seriousness, I’m at a complete loss to understand why it makes sense to even consider TPE as the operator of such a service!)

The only thing I can think of is that it means that there's not a micro fleet of units being used by another operator (thinking 185's).

Jorge Da Silva · 25 Nov 2018

Killingworth said:
Have we any better idea of what can/will replace them than we had 3-6 months ago?

In short... No

edwin_m · 25 Nov 2018

OrangeJuice said:
Whilst I think the additional train to Manchester Airport from Crewe will be very useful I think the capacity between Crewe and Wilmslow will struggle a lot when/if HS2 phase 2a does open to Crewe in 2027

Absolutely. I think it was suggested somewhere to truncate the Liverpool-Manchester-Airport-Crewe to release capacity for this service - which of course means there won't be any extra trains between Crewe and the Airport...

Can't see anything going across Crewe between Liverpool and Stoke lines unless and until the Crewe Hub happens. They have enough problems pathing the Manchester-S Wales.

dk1 · 25 Nov 2018

edwin_m said:
Absolutely. I think it was suggested somewhere to truncate the Liverpool-Manchester-Airport-Crewe to release capacity for this service - which of course means there won't be any extra trains between Crewe and the Airport...

Can't see anything going across Crewe between Liverpool and Stoke lines unless and until the Crewe Hub happens. They have enough problems pathing the Manchester-S Wales.

Just what I was thinking. Last thing Crewe needs is more conflicting moves blocking up the whole shop.

WillPS · 25 Nov 2018

Tomnick said:
Yes, the proposed route would avoid Birmingham, instead going via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby...

(in all seriousness, I’m at a complete loss to understand why it makes sense to even consider TPE as the operator of such a service!)

About as illogical as EMT then, given the majority of the journey is in the West Midlands. In fact, after leaving Derby it would pretty much immediately leave the East Midlands.

Tomnick · 25 Nov 2018

WillPS said:
About as illogical as EMT then, given the majority of the journey is in the West Midlands. In fact, after leaving Derby it would pretty much immediately leave the East Midlands.

If you look at it purely on the basis of fitting everything into nice appropriately named geographical boxes, then yes, I suppose it is! In terms of actually resourcing it and the locations of existing traincrew depots though, it’d probably fit best with the LNW franchise if not EMT, although the latter has route knowledge for the vast majority already.

Kneedown · 25 Nov 2018

WillPS said:
About as illogical as EMT then, given the majority of the journey is in the West Midlands. In fact, after leaving Derby it would pretty much immediately leave the East Midlands.

Well at least some of the journey is in the East Mids, wheras the route doesn't go anywhere near the Pennines.

duffield · 26 Nov 2018

Jorge Da Silva said:
In short... No

I expect the issue is probably sitting in Grayling's ever-expanding intray.
If he's still there he'll probably get round to it by about next November.

Aictos · 26 Nov 2018

Does it really matter who operates the routes?

TheBigD said:
In the latest issue of the excellent Modern Railways, page 13, there is an article which states :

"...For TPE (or East Midlands Trains) a new service from Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby is proposed for evaluation along with the extension of EMT's Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport.."

Why not think outside the box and instead re-introduce the Birmingham to Lincoln via Leicester service and have Liverpool to Nottingham via Stoke-on-Trent instead of terminating at Derby?

dk1 · 26 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
Does it really matter who operates the routes?

Why not think outside the box and instead re-introduce the Birmingham to Lincoln via Leicester service and have Liverpool to Nottingham via Stoke-on-Trent instead of terminating at Derby?

Doesn't it state that the Liverpool service is going to terminate Leicester? It will reverse in Derby.

Aictos · 26 Nov 2018

dk1 said:
Doesn't it state that the Liverpool service is going to terminate Leicester? It will reverse in Derby.

It does but the Birmingham to Lincoln service really ought to be re-introduced as it used to run under Central Trains, I don't see the point of Liverpool to Leicester myself especially as Crewe is rather busy these days.

Jorge Da Silva · 26 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
Does it really matter who operates the routes?

Why not think outside the box and instead re-introduce the Birmingham to Lincoln via Leicester service and have Liverpool to Nottingham via Stoke-on-Trent instead of terminating at Derby?

I believe Birmingham is prohibited in the next East Midlanda Franchise so no Birmingham to Lincoln service.

Aictos · 26 Nov 2018

Jorge Da Silva said:
I believe Birmingham is prohibited in the next East Midlanda Franchise so no Birmingham to Lincoln service.

Which is rather short sighted of the idiots in DfT....

class26 · 26 Nov 2018

But it could be part of a new Cross country franchise

Jorge Da Silva · 26 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
Which is rather short sighted of the idiots in DfT....

I completely agree. In the consultation it was suggested that the Birmingham to Leicester, Nottingham and Stansted Services should be Transferred to the franchise but despite 60% of the public in favour of the proposals it wasn’t enough to allow transferring and Remapping so it was dropped and meant the prohibition of Birmingham in the next Franchise.

bunnahabhain · 26 Nov 2018

I believe it was more the Transport for West Midlands end that helped block the transfer as they wanted the Birmingham to Leicester and Nottingham routes themselves.

Meerkat · 26 Nov 2018

Presumably they don’t want another operator at New Street either? Too complicated??

whhistle · 27 Nov 2018

Class 403 said:
It does but the Birmingham to Lincoln service really ought to be re-introduced as it used to run under Central Trains, I don't see the point of Liverpool to Leicester myself especially as Crewe is rather busy these days.

So the reason it should be re-introduced is because it used to be a service?

I doubt there will be room at junctions considering TfWM are looking at how a Leicester to Coventry service could work. South Wigston to Nuneaton = plenty of space. South Wigston to Leicester = not so much space without major work of a flyunder (which admittedly has been mooted).

Perhaps giving people of Leicester and Derby a link to Liverpool and Manchester without having to change at Sheffield is the aim?

If TfWM did get the local Birmingham to Leicester route, I wonder whether Cross Country would stop additional trains at the local stations on that line? They've had 100% revenue since taking it on, which would drop to 50% for some stations, 0% for others.
Although I also wonder how it would work with train staff as I believe there is a mixed pattern with the Stansted services, which obviously couldn't continue.

Jorge Da Silva · 27 Nov 2018

whhistle said:
So the reason it should be re-introduced is because it use to be a service?

I doubt there will be room at junctions considering TfWM are looking at how a Leicester to Coventry service could work. South Wigston to Nuneaton = plenty of space. South Wigston to Leicester = not so much space without major work of a flyunder (which admittedly has been mooted).

Perhaps giving people of Leicester and Derby a link to Liverpool and Manchester without having to change at Sheffield is the aim?

If TfWM did get the local Birmingham to Leicester route, I wonder whether Cross Country would stop additional trains at the local stations on that line? They've had 100% revenue since taking it on, which would drop to 50% for some stations, 0% for others.
Although I also wonder how it would work with train staff as I believe there is a mixed pattern with the Stansted services, which obviously couldn't continue.

Could you just merge the Nottingham-Birmingham and Nottingham-Leicester?

AndyW33 · 27 Nov 2018

But what Nottingham-Leicester is this? There's an hourly Lincoln-Nottingham-Leicester which calls at all stations between East Midlands Parkway and Leicester, and there are two MML services an hour, continuing to St Pancras from Leicester. There's no free-standing Nottingham-Leicester service at all.

Qwerty133 · 27 Nov 2018

whhistle said:
So the reason it should be re-introduced is because it use to be a service?

I doubt there will be room at junctions considering TfWM are looking at how a Leicester to Coventry service could work. South Wigston to Nuneaton = plenty of space. South Wigston to Leicester = not so much space without major work of a flyunder (which admittedly has been mooted).

Perhaps giving people of Leicester and Derby a link to Liverpool and Manchester without having to change at Sheffield is the aim?

If TfWM did get the local Birmingham to Leicester route, I wonder whether Cross Country would stop additional trains at the local stations on that line? They've had 100% revenue since taking it on, which would drop to 50% for some stations, 0% for others.
Although I also wonder how it would work with train staff as I believe there is a mixed pattern with the Stansted services, which obviously couldn't continue.

I wouldn't be so sure that there is capacity between Nuneaton and South Wigston. Unless they can find a way to replace the level crossing at Narborough with bridge (which I'd imagine the current buildings do not allow space for) there would be considerable opposition to any more trains through Narborough unless a stop was guaranteed.

Killingworth · 27 Nov 2018

We seem to be drifting away from the East Midlands franchise implementation.

We're still none the wiser on 2 particularly difficult issues.

1. How are HST 125 units to be replaced?

2. When will the Liverpool - Norwich route be remapped? The franchise implies December 2021 when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme was supposed to be ready, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. It's doubtful forward timetable planning will permit that date when there's no date set for work on the scheme to commence, let alone be completed. It seems certain to run into at least 2022. Remapping may now occur earlier, or be delayed for longer ?

43055 · 27 Nov 2018

Killingworth said:
We seem to be drifting away from the East Midlands franchise implementation.

We're still none the wiser on 2 particularly difficult issues.

1. How are HST 125 units to be replaced?

2. When will the Liverpool - Norwich route be remapped? The franchise implies December 2021 when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme was supposed to be ready, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. It's doubtful forward timetable planning will permit that date when there's no date set for work on the scheme to commence, let alone be completed. It seems certain to run into at least 2022. Remapping may now occur earlier, or be delayed for longer ?

1. I think there is discussion on that to see if they can opperate beyond 2020 at least until a replacement or new stock comes.

Something I would like to see after last Sundays experience is a better Sunday service on the mainline. Maybe 4 per hour from lunchtime with a slow and fast being shared between Nottingham and Derby and Corby?

Kneedown · 27 Nov 2018

Killingworth said:
2. When will the Liverpool - Norwich route be remapped? The franchise implies December 2021 when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme was supposed to be ready, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. It's doubtful forward timetable planning will permit that date when there's no date set for work on the scheme to commence, let alone be completed. It seems certain to run into at least 2022. Remapping may now occur earlier, or be delayed for longer ?

It's a case, currently, of IF it will be remapped, not when.

whhistle · 28 Nov 2018

Kneedown said:
It's a case, currently, of IF it will be remapped, not when.

Doesn't the ITT state (in loose words) that it will be remapped?

I'd have thought HSTs could continue to run in their current guise but stock replacement must be by X date that will be soon into the franchise.

Burgerstahl · 28 Nov 2018

whhistle said:
Doesn't the ITT state (in loose words) that it will be remapped?

I'd have thought HSTs could continue to run in their current guise but stock replacement must be by X date that will be soon into the franchise.

It’s intended, but, the ITT states “Provision will be made for East Midlands to continue to operate the service if an agreement with another operator cannot be reached.”

whhistle · 28 Nov 2018

Burgerstahl said:
It’s intended, but, the ITT states “Provision will be made for East Midlands to continue to operate the service if an agreement with another operator cannot be reached.”

*Thanks*
Didn't read and retain all the info

Mollman · 29 Nov 2018

Burgerstahl said:
It’s intended, but, the ITT states “Provision will be made for East Midlands to continue to operate the service if an agreement with another operator cannot be reached.”

I'd take that as a "We don't want EM to operate it, however we don't want to be held to ransom by another operator either".

cactustwirly · 29 Nov 2018

Killingworth said:
We seem to be drifting away from the East Midlands franchise implementation.

We're still none the wiser on 2 particularly difficult issues.

1. How are HST 125 units to be replaced?

2. When will the Liverpool - Norwich route be remapped? The franchise implies December 2021 when the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme was supposed to be ready, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. It's doubtful forward timetable planning will permit that date when there's no date set for work on the scheme to commence, let alone be completed. It seems certain to run into at least 2022. Remapping may now occur earlier, or be delayed for longer ?

For 1 nobody knows, however the HSTs provide a significant proportion of the EM IC services.
So it would be a complete disaster if the HSTs had to be withdrawn before 2020 without a suitable replacement

East Midlands Franchise 2019-

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member