East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[NoOnesFool]

Barnsley limited stop to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham (Northern).

If that heppened, then what would call at Ilkeston and Langley Mill? The Liverpool - Norwichs can't add any more stops, as they are supposed to be express too. Perhaps a local stopping service could be introduced in an ideal world, but there aren't the resources or facilities for that, so it's catch 22.

 

[LowLevel]

The problems rumble on incidentally. Another list as long as your arm of short formed and failed trains and the Twitter and Facebook pages are not a pretty sight.

 

[londonmidland]

Looking at the departures from Manchester Piccadilly, it seems as if most EMT Lime Street and Nottingham/Norwich services have been delayed pretty much all day in the region of approximately 5-20 mins.

I’ve noticed despite leaving RT from Lime Street, services pick up delays on route to Oxford Road due to the usual ‘congestion caused by earlier delays/a late running train being in front of this one’, which I see pretty much everyday.

Until something is done about the severely congested railway around Manchester, I guess this is to be expected.

 

[Killingworth]

Looking at the departures from Manchester Piccadilly, it seems as if most EMT Lime Street and Nottingham/Norwich services have been delayed pretty much all day in the region of approximately 5-20 mins.

I’ve noticed despite leaving RT from Lime Street, services pick up delays on route to Oxford Road due to the usual ‘congestion caused by earlier delays/a late running train being in front of this one’, which I see pretty much everyday.

Until something is done about the severely congested railway around Manchester, I guess this is to be expected.

Over the last 4 weeks 8 services from Manchester to Sheffield have averaged over 15 minutes late. No prizes for guessing the East Midlands services fare the worst.

See the Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16 thread for a very thorough going over of the pros and cons of that possible solution, or not.

 

[LowLevel]

Also not helping is that the crews have had enough of being bottom of the tree everywhere for regulation. This service is bottom of the pile across the country. As a result the crews don't see why they should extend any goodwill to run the service to time when no one else seems bothered and so are not trimming short their breaks to get out in front of stoppers like they used to. Thus 10 to 30 minute late starts from Liverpool and Norwich are now the norm.

Working example. Last time I gave up 10 minutes of my break to have an on time turnaround at Liverpool. Leave on time. Wait 6 minutes at Castlefield Junction. Have 10 minutes late wheezing useless Pacer on that ridiculous Alderley Edge stopper routed in front at Slade Lane. Pristine up fast ignored - both trains on the up slow. Now over 10 minutes late at Stockport while it chugs along making the Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel stops.

You can repeat such stories ad infinitum.

So I may as well take my full break and be delayed at Liverpool than be delayed en route by everyone else.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm not convinced that splitting it would actually offer many benefits. At present, there's a reasonable degree of certainty for through passengers but still with the option to restart the service right-time at Nottingham (with a fresh unit, and the crew that would've worked it forward anyway) if the inward is really down the pan - if that happens, it leaves the through passengers no worse off than they would be if the service was split (i.e. waiting for the next one from Nottingham) but removes the very real likelihood of them arriving only a few minutes late just in time to see the onward working disappearing under London Road.

I still don't understand the obsession with doing away with an ECS movement each way that's used to good effect in any case. If Northern or TPE ran the service to the current timings, they'd probably need two or three ECS (or taxi at best) moves each way between Sheffield and Nottingham for the early starts and late finishes.

I'm not convinced on splitting either but I'm surprised NR allows this ECS to operate as it would impact on their maintenance time. I would argue if it must run then EMT should sign the route to Liverpool via Derby, Crewe thence via Runcorn or Warrington Bank Quay as alternatives to via the Hope Valley and Manchester.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not convinced on splitting either but I'm surprised NR allows this ECS to operate as it would impact on their maintenance time. I would argue if it must run then EMT should sign the route to Liverpool via Derby, Crewe thence via Runcorn or Warrington Bank Quay as alternatives to via the Hope Valley and Manchester.

I'm sure that Network Rail would argue that, if they were concerned about the impact on their maintenance time. I'd suggest that the volume of freight from the quarries on nights would have a far greater impact though.

 

[yorksrob]

Also not helping is that the crews have had enough of being bottom of the tree everywhere for regulation. This service is bottom of the pile across the country. As a result the crews don't see why they should extend any goodwill to run the service to time when no one else seems bothered and so are not trimming short their breaks to get out in front of stoppers like they used to. Thus 10 to 30 minute late starts from Liverpool and Norwich are now the norm.

Working example. Last time I gave up 10 minutes of my break to have an on time turnaround at Liverpool. Leave on time. Wait 6 minutes at Castlefield Junction. Have 10 minutes late wheezing useless Pacer on that ridiculous Alderley Edge stopper routed in front at Slade Lane. Pristine up fast ignored - both trains on the up slow. Now over 10 minutes late at Stockport while it chugs along making the Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel stops.

You can repeat such stories ad infinitum.

So I may as well take my full break and be delayed at Liverpool than be delayed en route by everyone else.

Yes, I've used the service many times and it always ends up on the up slow, and its not as though anything passes us.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes, I've used the service many times and it always ends up on the up slow, and its not as though anything passes us.

It's about 50/50 in my experience - I've never checked whether most have been 'as booked' or not though. My most memorable was sailing past the stopper as it called at Levenshulme, then being held out on the Up Fast at Edgeley Jn No.1 for about five minutes to allow the stopper to catch up and trundle past towards Cheadle Hulme first...

I have to say that Man Picc seem to be pretty good, generally, when it comes to regulating, other than their love of the Up Slow as above. Just as an example, today's Liverpool experience was booked to cross DF-DS at Slade Lane, but they kept us out fast line presumably to avoid a conflict with an Airport-bound train which disappeared off around the curve as we approached the junction, using a decent gap in Up trains to cross us to the slow line at Ardwick Junction instead - saving at least a minute or two, and making for an unusually punctual passage through central Manchester.

 

[londonmidland]

Another day, another delay. The 15:52 off Liverpool Lime Street left 17 late before slowly gaining further delays after Widnes, resulting in picking up an additional 25 or so minutes by the time it got to Oxford Road. Most likely due to following other late running trains plus congestion.

In the end, it left 46 minutes late off Oxford Road.

Adding the fact that there are more short forms out due to extra maintenance required, due to leaf fall and other things, it hasn’t been a good few weeks for EMT.

 

[adrock1976]

If that heppened, then what would call at Ilkeston and Langley Mill? The Liverpool - Norwichs can't add any more stops, as they are supposed to be express too. Perhaps a local stopping service could be introduced in an ideal world, but there aren't the resources or facilities for that, so it's catch 22.

Apologies for the delayed response as I have only just seen this post.

What I meant was that there is (or was, as it presently runs to Lincoln Central via Worksop) a short Leeds - Sheffield limited stop via Barnsley that could be extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the present 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham. As far as I am aware, the existing Leeds - Nottingham via Barnsley limited stop calls at Ilkeston Parkway and Langley Mill anyway. Perhaps the frequency could be increased to every 30 minutes there should the suggestion of the Leeds-Sheffield (Lincoln) runs to Nottingham?

 

[ivanhoe]

I use to use this service quite regularly until last year. There were never all that many hold ups when I was traveling Liverpool to Nottingham, any delays on route were quickly made up. Splitting the route is not going to change the current issues. Changing operator, is equally not going to change current problems. However, surely EMT and Network Rail can get together and identify and suggest solutions. This is an important route , not some run of the mill rout,e connecting 3 Northern Powerhouse cities , East Midlands and East Anglia. It baffles me why the metro mayors of Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield are not getting to the airwaves to shout about this service and it's inadequacies.

 

[theblackwatch]

Please note that this thread is for discussion of the EMT franchise from 2019 - not moans about current EMT operations. If you wish to discuss the latter, please do so in another thread to prevent your post from being deleted as Off Topic. Many thanks!

 

[TheBigD]

In the latest issue of the excellent Modern Railways, page 13, there is an article which states :

"...For TPE (or East Midlands Trains) a new service from Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby is proposed for evaluation along with the extension of EMT's Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport.."

 

[londonmidland]

Interesting. Though if EMT retain the franchise, I can’t see Derby to Manchester Airport being very popular if all they can provide is a single 153? Was there not a Central Trains Nottingham/Derby to Manchester Airport service at one point?

TPE from Liverpool to Leicester would be nice in an ideal world as it opens up more connections and direct services but not sure how it’d work operationally.

 

[bunnahabhain]

TPE from Liverpool to Leicester would be nice in an ideal world as it opens up more connections and direct services but not sure how it’d work operationally.

Seems daft giving TPE yet another tangent of a route to have no interest in running.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Interesting. Though if EMT retain the franchise, I can’t see Derby to Manchester Airport being very popular if all they can provide is a single 153? Was there not a Central Trains Nottingham/Derby to Manchester Airport service at one point?

TPE from Liverpool to Leicester would be nice in an ideal world as it opens up more connections and direct services but not sure how it’d work operationally.

There was a Skegness to Manchester Airport Services but was cut back significantly to Crewe (now its the Manchester Airport-Crewe service). It was popular but due to congestion around Derby and Nottingham it was axed.

It would be interesting to see a Manchester Airport-Derby services (replacing Northern’s Crewe-Manchester Airport service) and I suspect the stock will be replaced or cascade of other trains. I think a Merseyrail Long Term Rail Strategy had proposed a Liverpool to Leicester via Derby and Crewe service and I am glad we could see this in the next East Midlands Franchise (ort TPE Franchise).

 

[323235]

Why does it need to replace Northern's Crewe - Manchester Airport service? I would have thought the intention would be to have extra connectivity per hour to the Airport avoid Piccadilly and not have a regional service wasting time calling at local stations Crewe - Airport.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why does it need to replace Northern's Crewe - Manchester Airport service? I would have thought the intention would be to have extra connectivity per hour to the Airport avoid Piccadilly and not have a regional service wasting time calling at local stations Crewe - Airport.

That’s the plan according to Modern Railways Mag. They say it could replace that service.

 

[vlad]

In the latest issue of the excellent Modern Railways, page 13, there is an article which states :

"...For TPE (or East Midlands Trains) a new service from Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby is proposed for evaluation along with the extension of EMT's Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport.."

It used to run to Manchester Airport but never seemed to be particularly well-used. I took that train on a few occasions and was pretty much the only passenger between Manchester Airport and Crewe.

What was popular was the extension of the train in the other direction, to Nottingham. I'm not sure there'd be room for that now.

 

[ivanhoe]

Can’t really see the Liverpool to Leicester route being fruitful. Don’t get me wrong,I’d love it, being a regular Loughborough to Liverpool traveller but can’t see the demand and more importantly the connectivity options. Love to be proved wrong however.

 

[Pete_uk]

So, I'm guessing there is little chance of the slam door HSTs being taken out of service before 2020?

What might they do longer term? 800s?

 

[cactustwirly]

So, I'm guessing there is little chance of the slam door HSTs being taken out of service before 2020?

What might they do longer term? 800s?

No there's nothing to replace them with.
800s possibly, but I hope the future bidder goes for something of a higher quality!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So, I'm guessing there is little chance of the slam door HSTs being taken out of service before 2020?

What might they do longer term? 800s?

They have to they do not meet standards after 31/12/19

 

[cactustwirly]

They have to they do not meet standards after 31/12/19

But if they were to be withdrawn, there would be a significant drop in capacity!

 

[XCTurbostar]

They have to they do not meet standards after 31/12/19

At this point, Ill put money on there being a derogation to keep them in service.

 

[Aictos]

In the latest issue of the excellent Modern Railways, page 13, there is an article which states :

"...For TPE (or East Midlands Trains) a new service from Liverpool to Leicester via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby is proposed for evaluation along with the extension of EMT's Derby to Crewe service to Manchester Airport.."

MMM, interesting proposals I see...

Would the first proposal avoid Birmingham?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

But if they were to be withdrawn, there would be a significant drop in capacity!

They haven’t modified them so they will be withdrawn

 

[Killingworth]

They haven’t modified them so they will be withdrawn

Have we any better idea of what can/will replace them than we had 3-6 months ago?

 

[Tomnick]

MMM, interesting proposals I see...

Would the first proposal avoid Birmingham?

Yes, the proposed route would avoid Birmingham, instead going via Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter and Derby...

(in all seriousness, I’m at a complete loss to understand why it makes sense to even consider TPE as the operator of such a service!)