ScotRail December 2018 Timetable change

Class83 · 29 Nov 2018

There are a some winners and losers as with any change, however there are a few things that could be better.

Dunblane Services, the omission of a direct 0725-30 arriving Edinburgh ~0830 is not good, it's absolutely the peakiest of the peak time. Hopefully this can be resolved in May, possibly with adjustments at Stirling to allow it to couple to a service from Alloa. The service is otherwise half hourly all day so this is a pretty bizarre omission.
Likewise the 1718, hanging around in Stirling again on the main peak train will be annoying. Though this will be right behind the 1715 to Queen Street so it can't leave any earlier, only option would be to swap it with the 1723 via Bathgate which would reduce the wait in Stirling by 5 mins. The Bathgate train may have a path to fit in through Glasgow though.

Linlithgow Services, it's not good for those travelling to Stirling, but there aren't many of them, driving may well be the best option.
However for those travelling to Edinburgh it's at least as good as current, however, Scotrail need to commit to making the Glasgow-Cumbernauld-Grahamston-Linlithgow-Edinburgh service 6 cars if it generate additional demand. Though the 0823 (as a morning peak example) leaves Grahamston 4 minutes after an Alloa to Edinburgh service so shouldn't have many people from Falkirk on it.

And a flyover at Newbridge is probably needed at some point, the Dalmeny Chord without the airport tunnel just seems silly, and would cause conflicts with services on the Forth Bridge.

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tbtc · 30 Nov 2018

One surprise is that the 17:03 from Queen Street to Grahamston still runs (before shunting into the Grangemouth siding for a bit and heading back to Glasgow) - one of those quirky services that I'd not noticed before (not sure how many years it's been running?).

Since the new timetable seems to be an opportunity to tidy up services, I'm surprised that this has been kept - presumably as a crowd buster for Bishopbriggs/ Lenzie? Or was the intention that this could extend through to Fife one day (like the 17:33 from Queen Street)?

Class83 said:
Dunblane Services, the omission of a direct 0725-30 arriving Edinburgh ~0830 is not good, it's absolutely the peakiest of the peak time. Hopefully this can be resolved in May, possibly with adjustments at Stirling to allow it to couple to a service from Alloa. The service is otherwise half hourly all day so this is a pretty bizarre omission

I guess it's more a case of the Stirling - Edinburgh service retaining a broadly half hourly timetable (07:07, 07:49, 08:03, 08:36), but the 07:49 is the ex-Alloa service, so it's more important to give Alloa *one* Edinburgh service than maintain a half hourly Dunblane service.

There are 07:38 and 07:55 arrivals in Stirling from Perth, so there's an 07:29 ex Dunblane that connects into the Alloa service.

The path of the one "fast" service (the current 07:23 ex Dunblane, 07:31 ex-Stirling) that currently runs non-stop from Larbert to Haymarket is given over to a "Cumbernauld" service, which means it'll serve Falkirk/ Polmont/ Linlithgow rather than zipping through them as it currently does - as it is currently timed to arrive in Edinburgh only three minutes after the previous Dunblane service (the ex-Perth one), I'd argue that it's better use of resources to give Falkirk/ Polmont/ Linlithgow a prime morning arrival into Edinburgh (than to give Dunblane two Edinburgh arrivals within a few minutes of each other).

I agree with your other points though - always going to be some winners and some losers but I think it's a generally very positive set of changes.

Esker-pades · 30 Nov 2018

The timetables for the Highlands (Highland Main, Inverness to Aberdeen, Kyle and Far North) are back up.

Stopper · 30 Nov 2018

ScotRail’s response on Twitter to a lot of disgruntled passengers has been that there will be further timetable ‘improvements’ in May and December next year. Other than all-electric timetables and Shotts going electric, what are these changes?

Esker-pades · 30 Nov 2018

Stopper said:
ScotRail’s response on Twitter to a lot of disgruntled passengers has been that there will be further timetable ‘improvements’ in May and December next year. Other than all-electric timetables and Shotts going electric, what are these changes?

Hopefully re-instated connections at Inverness.

route101 · 30 Nov 2018

tbtc said:
One surprise is that the 17:03 from Queen Street to Grahamston still runs (before shunting into the Grangemouth siding for a bit and heading back to Glasgow) - one of those quirky services that I'd not noticed before (not sure how many years it's been running?).

Since the new timetable seems to be an opportunity to tidy up services, I'm surprised that this has been kept - presumably as a crowd buster for Bishopbriggs/ Lenzie? Or was the intention that this could extend through to Fife one day (like the 17:33 from Queen Street)?

I guess it's more a case of the Stirling - Edinburgh service retaining a broadly half hourly timetable (07:07, 07:49, 08:03, 08:36), but the 07:49 is the ex-Alloa service, so it's more important to give Alloa *one* Edinburgh service than maintain a half hourly Dunblane service.

There are 07:38 and 07:55 arrivals in Stirling from Perth, so there's an 07:29 ex Dunblane that connects into the Alloa service.

The path of the one "fast" service (the current 07:23 ex Dunblane, 07:31 ex-Stirling) that currently runs non-stop from Larbert to Haymarket is given over to a "Cumbernauld" service, which means it'll serve Falkirk/ Polmont/ Linlithgow rather than zipping through them as it currently does - as it is currently timed to arrive in Edinburgh only three minutes after the previous Dunblane service (the ex-Perth one), I'd argue that it's better use of resources to give Falkirk/ Polmont/ Linlithgow a prime morning arrival into Edinburgh (than to give Dunblane two Edinburgh arrivals within a few minutes of each other).

I agree with your other points though - always going to be some winners and some losers but I think it's a generally very positive set of changes.

Was the 1703 service , a Queen St to Lenzie service that was extended at some point ?

kilonewton · 30 Nov 2018

Stopper said:
ScotRail’s response on Twitter to a lot of disgruntled passengers has been that there will be further timetable ‘improvements’ in May and December next year. Other than all-electric timetables and Shotts going electric, what are these changes?

Probably more 42 minute trips between Edinburgh & Glasgow. From my reading of the timetable, it’s one each way. Some services have even been lengthened by up to 5 minutes.
Taking a more detailed look, it’s evolution rather than revolution for the E-G & SDA. I look forward to May

Journeyman · 30 Nov 2018

tbtc said:
One surprise is that the 17:03 from Queen Street to Grahamston still runs (before shunting into the Grangemouth siding for a bit and heading back to Glasgow) - one of those quirky services that I'd not noticed before (not sure how many years it's been running?).

Since the new timetable seems to be an opportunity to tidy up services, I'm surprised that this has been kept - presumably as a crowd buster for Bishopbriggs/ Lenzie?

I use it occasionally, and that seems to be exactly what it's for. It's full and standing out of Queen Street, but almost empty on departure from Lenzie. It's been running for at least the last four years, I think somewhat longer.

tbtc · 30 Nov 2018

Stopper said:
ScotRail’s response on Twitter to a lot of disgruntled passengers has been that there will be further timetable ‘improvements’ in May and December next year. Other than all-electric timetables and Shotts going electric, what are these changes?

Could just be a little tightening up once the 385s have time to bed down - e.g. at the moment we don't know how dwell times at intermediate stations will change (due to longer trains with wider doors than 158s and splitting the loads between additional services e.g. Grahamston to Waverley), plus once they can *rely* on EMUs they can maybe shave a minute or two here or there.

Plus remains to be seen how efficient things like the teatime splitting at Stirling will be?

Doesn't hurt a TOC to say something along the lines of "we are listening to passengers and will potentially tweak timetables to reflect demand" to placate angry tweeters.

route101 said:
Was the 1703 service , a Queen St to Lenzie service that was extended at some point ?

Journeyman said:
I use it occasionally, and that seems to be exactly what it's for. It's full and standing out of Queen Street, but almost empty on departure from Lenzie. It's been running for at least the last four years, I think somewhat longer.

Interesting - cheers both - in a world of regular clock face timetables, it's interesting to find non-standard services like these.

I guess the Grangemouth siding is somewhere to dump it (given the lack of crossovers near Lenzie) - just seems a relatively "short" service when almost everything else from Queen Street runs all the way to Edinburgh/ Dunblane/ Alloa (yes, apart from the Anniesland services...)

InOban · 30 Nov 2018

Isn't it possible to turn a train at Cadder?

Highlandspring · 30 Nov 2018

InOban said:
Isn't it possible to turn a train at Cadder?

Yes, there’s a (rarely used) signalled move from Lenzie station Up E&G to Down E&G via 708pts at Cadder. Lenzie terminators have turned at Greenhill in the past.

Chrism20 · 1 Dec 2018

Stopper said:
ScotRail’s response on Twitter to a lot of disgruntled passengers has been that there will be further timetable ‘improvements’ in May and December next year. Other than all-electric timetables and Shotts going electric, what are these changes?

All electric on Shotts
All electric on Glasgow/Edinburgh to Alloa and Dunblane
More robust timetable E>G due to above
New Highland Mainline timetable
The double track being installed north of Aberdeen being opened
More HSTs running to allow full benefit of the above two.

Esker-pades · 3 Dec 2018

connormill said:
Is that because staff have been taken from their regular duties to do HST Training?

If so, why have they left it so late to train the second guys up, they have known about the timetable change for weeks.

Quote from another thread to prevent thread drift.

Not just HST training, but it is for staff training for new rolling stock and routes.

As for your second point, you'll have to talk to ScotRail senior management. They have been fairly awful in their implementation of the new timetable.

Mingulay · 3 Dec 2018

Public meeting with Scotrail and local politicians in Dunblane tonight one to follow in B of A later

Standing room only. The irony of that did not go unnoticed!

In a nut shell Scotrail held there hands up and said sorry things have been bad. We don't communicate well , we have not consulted widely we know your getting a poor service of late it's down to industrial action ,staff training, delay of new trains and HST ,but nothing will change for this timetable , they seemed deaf to the loss of peak services from Dunblane . In May they hope to but no guarantee that a further service will be laid on at circa 7.30. But it is not direct , change at Stirling 6 min if on time from Alloa . They then said Dec 19 they may look again. Don't think that was taken as satisfactory or likely
At least people have vented frustration , Scotrail have taken a public caning and local politicians of all parties gave impression of trying to help albeit a bit of grandstanding. Surprisingly Transport Scotland did not take the flak they should but no doubt that will come later.

So. All eyes on Monday and hope it's not carnage. No one happy it seems but it was never going to be medals all round for Scotrail. Fair play they showed up.

scotraildriver · 3 Dec 2018

It's not "industrial action." It's people taking their rostered days off. If there were enough staff there would be no issues.

Mingulay · 4 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
It's not "industrial action." It's people taking their rostered days off. If there were enough staff there would be no issues.

Thanks for clarifying. I think his words were they were they are in Dispute with one of the unions. I’m not sure he or the audience used industrial action so I don’t want to misquote him. In the eyes of the public it’s a fine distinction. I entirely sympathise with you tho. I’m not a fan of strikes but it is clear they are not adequately staffing. He was challenged by a member of the public why not have more drivers. He said they have sufficient it’s just training that’s the short term problem. Clearly that is scotrail spin.

scotraildriver · 4 Dec 2018

It is partly true. There have been additional training requirements which were not part of the plan. Slam door HSTs, the class 365s - each member of staff needs 4 days additional training which has meant having to remove people from train services. But people are fed up being constantly asked to work their days off and the drivers are the only grade to receive any financial incentive to work a day off. The RMT want some sort of payment for their members too to make it worth people's time, but Abellio have made unsatisfactory offers so there is no overtime being worked currently which could have been used to cover the training. Hope this explains the situation - everyone is working their contracted hours, just not their days off and as you can see, the railway cannot run without people's goodwill.

Mingulay · 4 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
It is partly true. There have been additional training requirements which were not part of the plan. Slam door HSTs, the class 365s - each member of staff needs 3 days additional training which has meant having to remove people from train services. But people are fed up being constantly asked to work their days off and the drivers are the only grade to receive any financial incentive to work a day off. The RMT want some sort of payment for their members too to make it worth people's time, but Abellio have made unsatisfactory offers so there is no overtime being worked currently which could have been used to cover the training. Hope this explains the situation - everyone is working their contracted hours, just not their days off and as you can see, the railway cannot run without people's goodwill.

Thanks again. All fair.

All businesses rely on goodwill. But it’s finite and if taken for granted it soon evaporates as is clearly the case here. Abellio are all out of goodwill with staff and was clear last night no goodwill from passengers in this part of the network at least. And in view of public dissatisfaction , no goodwill from the political class. So they are now in a hostile environment where every failure will attract scrutiny and fire from all sides which an unsympathetic press will spotlight. But that is the lot of most TOC
Studiply however Scotrail have set themselves up by maintaining the brand Scotland’s best ever railway and nothing gives your opposition an easy win than shooting the claim down in flames. It soon becomes Scotland’s worst ever franchise !

scotraildriver · 4 Dec 2018

All true but I still maintain if Hitachi and Wabtec had delivered on time we wouldn't be in this situation now. These companies failures are the root causes of all the issues and I do have some sympathy with Scotrail.

Mingulay · 4 Dec 2018

scotraildriver said:
All true but I still maintain if Hitachi and Wabtec had delivered on time we wouldn't be in this situation now. These companies failures are the root causes of all the issues and I do have some sympathy with Scotrail.

Yes they have let Scotrail down. But as the customer you have choices and you are the other half of the contract. Did they enter into a good deal. Right terms. Done due diligence. Risk assessment of converting an old train ? These are areas Scotrail and Transport Scotland need to be held to account. If I buy a car that is unsuitable at the wrong cost who is to blame. No one should ever take a face value what a supplier promises in a sales negotiation it’s up to you to interrogate it and be satisfied they can deliver. As rail industry insiders. Scotrail should have understood and been wholly satisfied Wabtec could deliver and been all over that companies plant staffing and track record and insisted on a test bed conversion and how it went before entering the contract especially if you know your existing fleet are under contract to go. There was a finite time frame to deliver and it’s not remotely been met. There is only limited defence in blaming others. Besides. Travelling public court of opinion Scotrail are in the dock. Not Wabtec. So it matters not

dmkc · 4 Dec 2018

Hmmm still no sign of the Glasgow & Edinburgh - Aberdeen Timetable from Monday
Sign of an ever moving scenario still?

mcmad · 4 Dec 2018

Someone queried that lack of Aberdeen timetable today on twitter and the reply was the new version is uploaded. Not checked myself though.

Edit. Just checked and its the old one as you say.

David M · 5 Dec 2018

mcmad said:
Someone queried that lack of Aberdeen timetable today on twitter and the reply was the new version is uploaded. Not checked myself though.

Edit. Just checked and its the old one as you say.

I think the twitter reply intimated that the booking engine had all the details and so times shown within were confirmed - it was only the pdfs that they were waiting on.

InOban · 5 Dec 2018

And how. long should it take to load the data into the PDF template? 30 minutes?

David M · 5 Dec 2018

InOban said:
And how. long should it take to load the data into the PDF template? 30 minutes?

My inclination would be that the preparation is done by a commercial printer rather than Scotrail. It isn't only used online but is printed and available at stations - they will send it to Scotrail for proof reading and then action any amendments. I'm guessing it goes online when the print run is under way or completed. The timetable is finalised and tickets can be booked but the pdf isn't yet available - seems in hand so chill pills required.

InOban · 5 Dec 2018

It's up!

Stopper · 8 Dec 2018

Had my last ever (for the forseeable future) rail commute yesterday. Hopefully tomorrow’s timetable change goes very smoothly and there aren’t any major problems.

snookertam · 9 Dec 2018

As others have noted on the class 314 withdrawals thread, a number of 4 car class 380s out and about today on the Neilston and Newton services, still both a 3 and a 6 car 314 diagram on those routes it would appear.

Also noted a 3 car 380 on a Lanark service so it looks like they've returned to that route also.

I believe the plan is for 385s to end up on some Inverclyde, Cathcart and Lanark services.

Esker-pades · 9 Dec 2018

snookertam said:
As others have noted on the class 314 withdrawals thread, a number of 4 car class 380s out and about today on the Neilston and Newton services, still both a 3 and a 6 car 314 diagram on those routes it would appear.

Also noted a 3 car 380 on a Lanark service so it looks like they've returned to that route also.

I believe the plan is for 385s to end up on some Inverclyde, Cathcart and Lanark services.

I believe that is correct. When 385s are fully rolled out, they will replace all the 314s (with some help from 380s) as well as operating the newly electrified services between Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dunblane. They'll also do the Edinburgh - North Berwick and Dunbar stuff.

Stopper · 9 Dec 2018

I don’t think 385s are going to Inverclyde. It’s meant to go all 380 once the 314s are gone. Cathcart and possibly Lanark are going 385s. Shotts, North Berwick, Carstairs, SDA and E-G are 385s.

ScotRail December 2018 Timetable change

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