Who has been the best operator of the East Coast Main Line franchise?

vlad · 6 Feb 2019

falcon said:
GNER were without any doubt the best TOC and offered the best service of any TOC.

GNER phoned me to tell me they'd found some property I'd lost on a train then denied all knowledge of it when I turned up to collect it. I've still no idea where it went.

One GNER member of staff shouted "What do you want?" at me when I entered the ticket office.

Another GNER member of staff refused to serve me as I was queueing in the wrong place, despite the fact I was the only person in the queue (apart from the person he was serving at the time) and there were no signs telling me where I should have been queueing.

From my experience, GNER offered the worst service of any TOC. However, given that I've never travelled on any of the other ECML franchises my vote has to be for Cross Country....

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Iskra · 6 Feb 2019

43096 said:
Can't help but feel that anyone doing the VTEC awful, LNER much better routine are just on an anti-Virgin/Branson trip. Presumably those thinking that are oblivious to the fact that the management team (right up to David Horne as MD) are the same under LNER as they were under VTEC.

Likewise the misty-eyed nostalgia for GNER must be from full-fare first class ticket holders. "Bletchleyite" has it right on that.

My opinions were for the reasons I gave, nothing to do with Branson.

I think VTWC are good. I think Virgin Atlantic are good. I didn’t like VTEC, but weren’t they much more stagecoach than virgin anyway? (I’m not anti-stagecoach either...)

westv · 6 Feb 2019

It was a sad day when we lost Rewards and it was a sad day when we lost the online discount.

falcon · 7 Feb 2019

vlad said:
GNER phoned me to tell me they'd found some property I'd lost on a train then denied all knowledge of it when I turned up to collect it. I've still no idea where it went.

One GNER member of staff shouted "What do you want?" at me when I entered the ticket office.

Another GNER member of staff refused to serve me as I was queueing in the wrong place, despite the fact I was the only person in the queue (apart from the person he was serving at the time) and there were no signs telling me where I should have been queueing.

From my experience, GNER offered the worst service of any TOC. However, given that I've never travelled on any of the other ECML franchises my vote has to be for Cross Country....

Sorry you had bad service, but those are your single individual experiences. Unlike the complete service they offered to millions of happy customers. Which have never been matched by any other TOC.

Bletchleyite · 7 Feb 2019

falcon said:
Sorry you had bad service, but those are your single individual experiences. Unlike the complete service they offered to millions of happy customers. Which have never been matched by any other TOC.

His experience is more like mine. They truly treated Standard and Weekend First passengers like the dirt on their shoe, and did nothing substantial to the trains or service other than paint them a nice shade of blue (which First North Western also did, with some substantial service improvements to boot).

XC are dire though, I don't agree with that part. Without doubt the worst IC TOC (noting that I don't consider TPE an IC TOC yet, otherwise they would sit just below for their corporate arrogance and overcrowding problem despite flogging Advances left, right and centre).

hexagon789 · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
Yes, the Eurostars were definitely a novel and interesting improvent to the Leeds service - seems like a long time ago.

And where would we have been without the extra HST's !

Definitely ages!

If GNER hasn't procured the additional HSTs,I wonder if a half-hourly Leeds service would've materialised and if so what would be operated it.

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

hexagon789 said:
Definitely ages!

If GNER hasn't procured the additional HSTs,I wonder if a half-hourly Leeds service would've materialised and if so what would be operated it.

I suppose the Eurostars could have been kept, but probably not enough to go half hourly.

Come to think of it, there were a few Mk 3's and 87's going spare from the WCML around then.

hexagon789 · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
I suppose the Eurostars could have been kept, but probably not enough to go half hourly.

Come to think of it, there were a few Mk 3's and 87's going spare from the WCML around then.

Would the 110mph maximum of 87s have been an issue though?

Failed Unit · 9 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
did nothing substantial to the trains or service other than paint them a nice shade of blue (which First North Western also did, with some substantial service improvements to boot).

The Mallard refurb (although that is often debated to if it was an improvement)

The Eurostar was interesting. Didn’t the main driver behind these come from the fact a MK4 set was wrote of in Great Heck and Hatfield accidents. (A few coaches in each one)

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

hexagon789 said:
Would the 110mph maximum of 87s have been an issue though?

Perhaps. I'm not sure whether they could have gotten away with using them on Leeds/York stoppers for example. You'd need a diagrammer to give some idea !

Failed Unit · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
Perhaps. I'm not sure whether they could have gotten away with using them on Leeds/York stoppers for example. You'd need a diagrammer to give some idea !

They had many years of class 90 traction on London - Leeds (after the 89 was stopped) and the Eurostar’s were restricted with extended dwell times anyway.

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
They had many years of class 90 traction on London - Leeds (after the 89 was stopped) and the Eurostar’s were restricted with extended dwell times anyway.

That's interesting. It would have suited me - I loved the mk 3's on the WCML !

Failed Unit · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
That's interesting. It would have suited me - I loved the mk 3's on the WCML !

I will add for clarity that the 90 was hauling the mk4s rather than mk3’s. Not sure if the ex - WCML was ever considered. I think 90024 was painted in GNER blue.

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
I will add for clarity that the 90 was hauling the mk4s rather than mk3’s. Not sure if the ex - WCML was ever considered. I think 90024 was painted in GNER blue.

Fair doos. I prefer mk 3's to mk 4's personally.

NoMorePacers · 9 Feb 2019

I'm too young to have been on/remember the first three (and EC to an extent I suppose), and I haven't been on EC and VTEC, so LNER it is, I guess.

vlad · 9 Feb 2019

falcon said:
Sorry you had bad service, but those are your single individual experiences. Unlike the complete service they offered to millions of happy customers. Which have never been matched by any other TOC.

You're right: the blatant rudeness shown by GNER staff has never been matched by any other TOC. :smile:

Incidentally, I notice you feel the need to apologise, which suggests to me you're connected to GNER in some way.

falcon · 9 Feb 2019

vlad said:
You're right: the blatant rudeness shown by GNER staff has never been matched by any other TOC.

Incidentally, I notice you feel the need to apologise, which suggests to me you're connected to GNER in some way.

No nothing to do with GNER they went years ago. I just have sympathy with anyone who had a bad experience because knowing that company they would always do their best to compensate customers.
The point is individual experience does not really show the full story.
As has been said and it is accepted that GNER were excellent with customer service there are always individuals that feel aggrieved with everything. it's the overall picture that counts.

Darandio · 9 Feb 2019

falcon said:
As has been said and it is accepted that GNER were excellent with customer service there are always individuals that feel aggrieved with everything. it's the overall picture that counts.

Accepted by who? You are speaking like some kind of mouthpiece for the whole GNER customer base and effectively blaming those who complained because they would complain about anything.

Newsflash, GNER weren't that good.

Bletchleyite · 9 Feb 2019

falcon said:
No nothing to do with GNER they went years ago. I just have sympathy with anyone who had a bad experience because knowing that company they would always do their best to compensate customers.
The point is individual experience does not really show the full story.
As has been said and it is accepted that GNER were excellent with customer service there are always individuals that feel aggrieved with everything. it's the overall picture that counts.

I do not accept that GNER had good customer service - it was in my experience appalling. They were a TOC even more institutionally arrogant than "We're InterCity, don't you know?" TPE (complete with their overcrowded suburban DMUs). You only got genuinely good service if you were toting a First Open ticket.

Bletchleyite · 9 Feb 2019

Darandio said:
Newsflash, GNER weren't that good.

Indeed, they were in my experience a polished turd. I think VTWC have been much, much better over the years and have done far more to improve service than a TOC who basically just rode on the back of what BR did rather than on a service they inherited from BR that was falling to bits over on the WCML.

You could say they were the best TOC on the ECML because all the others were dross too (though I think East Coast were probably better) but that does not make them any good.

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed, they were in my experience a polished turd. I think VTWC have been much, much better over the years and have done far more to improve service than a TOC who basically just rode on the back of what BR did rather than on a service they inherited from BR that was falling to bits over on the WCML.

You could say they were the best TOC on the ECML because all the others were dross too (though I think East Coast were probably better) but that does not make them any good.

Well VTWC had to do something, given they got the route at the end of the investment cycle !

(Speaking as someone who used them regularly in the second half of thre 90's)

Bletchleyite · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
Well VTWC had to do something, given they got the route at the end of the investment cycle !

(Speaking as someone who used them regularly in the second half of thre 90's)

Yes, I remember just how bad it had got. An hour spent watching Victoria Wood's Great Railway Journey would demonstrate quite adequately just how grim rail travel to/from and in the North West had got in the 1990s, and how much better things are now (give or take the blip of the present mismanaged industrial relations disaster of a Northern franchise).

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, I remember just how bad it had got. An hour spent watching Victoria Wood's Great Railway Journey would demonstrate quite adequately just how grim rail travel to/from and in the North West had got in the 1990s, and how much better things are now (give or take the blip of the present mismanaged industrial relations disaster of a Northern franchise).

I just remember heading for the smoking compartment to get a seat, and long waits at Crewe or Preston.

Generally, I don't think things were too bad. The late Victoria Wood's documentary doesn't make things seem bad as far as I can see. The only thing I did notice was when she said the subway at Middlesbrough smelt of pee, because it doesn't now.

Bletchleyite · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
I just remember heading for the smoking compartment to get a seat

Yeah, I used to do that. I also found you got more interesting people in there - it was more like a pub on rails in a way.

Generally, I don't think things were too bad. The late Victoria Wood's documentary doesn't make things seem bad as far as I can see. The only thing I did notice was when she said the subway at Middlesbrough smelt of pee, because it doesn't now.

To me it was a story of grimness, unreliability, very low usage, a run-down feel and a feeling that half of it was likely to close in pretty short order, particularly the Cumbrian Coast. At the time the future looked bleak.

yorksrob · 9 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Yeah, I used to do that. I also found you got more interesting people in there - it was more like a pub on rails in a way.

To me it was a story of grimness, unreliability, very low usage, a run-down feel and a feeling that half of it was likely to close in pretty short order, particularly the Cumbrian Coast. At the time the future looked bleak.

In terms of the smoking carriage, that it was like a pub was probably why I liked it.

In termsof the Cimbrian coast, it showed a sprinter with some people on it. How is that di#erent to today ?

Bletchleyite · 9 Feb 2019

yorksrob said:
In terms of the smoking carriage, that it was like a pub was probably why I liked it.

In termsof the Cimbrian coast, it showed a sprinter with some people on it. How is that di#erent to today ?

Maybe it was just Wood who painted a sad story - but it certainly didn't feel like the same Cumbrian Coast of today. It was an era where the British holiday was dead or dying and regional trains had no future, and that was certainly the dreary feel it gave to me. It wasn't the era where you'd expect things like the recent frequency increases on the route.

yorksrob · 10 Feb 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Maybe it was just Wood who painted a sad story - but it certainly didn't feel like the same Cumbrian Coast of today. It was an era where the British holiday was dead or dying and regional trains had no future, and that was certainly the dreary feel it gave to me. It wasn't the era where you'd expect things like the recent frequency increases on the route.

Well no, but apart from different moquettes, it didn't seem that different to today.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 Feb 2019

I don't travel on the ECML enough to have an opinion, but I didn't care for Christopher Garnett's dismissal of Voyagers as "nasty little trains".
Like them or not, they are the backbone of services across wide areas of the country, and they complement East Coast services north of Doncaster/York.
I was once tipped off a KX-bound 225 at Stevenage when it stopped on a set down only service - the guard came down the (lightly loaded) train to find me especially.
Didn't endear me to East Coast customer service... (it was in late BR days).
I've also never thought dark blue was a particularly attractive livery for trains - makes them largely invisible.
GEC's Mark 4s also have poor leg room and the seat-back tables squeak (the refurb might have improved these).

GrimShady · 24 Feb 2019

hexagon789 said:
I did like GNER, but one just has to look at a BR timetable to see how quick some of the crack expresses once were. Edinburgh in 3 hrs 59 with two-stops, Glasgow in 4 hrs 57.

The two-hourly Glasgow service was very useful, very comfortable going to York in a 225.

I'm too young for BR days, but I can clearly remember GNER, so that's what I'm voting for.

When did the 2 hourly Glasgow Central 225 service stop?

hexagon789 · 24 Feb 2019

GrimShady said:
When did the 2 hourly Glasgow Central 225 service stop?

2011 I believe.

Who has been the best operator of the East Coast Main Line franchise?

Who has been the best operator of the East Coast Main Line franchise?

British Rail

Great North Eastern Railway

National Express East Coast

East Coast

Virgin Trains East Coast

London North Eastern Railway

They were all equally as good.

They were all equally as average.

They were all equally as bad.

I don't know.

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