Who has been the best operator of the East Coast Main Line franchise?

[swt class 450]

In your opinion who do you think has been the best operator of the East Coast Main Line franchise? Who has done the best job of running the line?

This franchise has had a very high number of TOC changes so it be interesting to hear your views on the different TOCs. Certainly a lot has changed on this line.

These are the six operators so far:
• 1. British Rail↓
(operate until 27/04/1996)
• 2. Great North Eastern Railway↓
(28/04/1996-08/12/2007)
• 3. National Express East Coast↓
(09/12/2007-13/11/2009)
• 4. East Coast↓
(14/11/2009-28/02/2015)
• 5. Virgin Trains East Coast↓
(01/03/2015-23/06/2018)
• 6. London North Eastern Railway↓
(24/06/2018 until current)

This is how i would personally rate them in order from best to worst:

~best~
• British Rail
• East Coast
• Great North Eastern Railway
• National Express East Coast
• London North Eastern Railway
• Virgin Trains East Coast
~worst~

The first four were all quite decent. I was always happy with BR / GNER / NXEC / EC and never really had many problems or complaints about them. I thought that they all provided a fairly high quality of service.

However all the problems really only started when VTEC started. VTEC was by far the worse one. They were a complete and utter disaster. I can't think of anything good to say about them at all.

Every day there was fault after fault after fault, ticket machines broken, toilets broken, other broken faculties, carriages out of use, no catering available, etc etc etc. It was clear that VTEC made no effort at all.

They bought in all this tacky unprofessional typical Virgin style publicity and started speaking to customers in the very annoying typical Virgin style language.

The customer service also went very downhill. It was impossible to get a decent reply from customer service. I found that their Twitter became very unprofessional with a lot of rather rude staff running it. I also found that VTEC really wasn't interested in hearing any criticism at all about their services.

Unfortunately LNER has been rather disappointing. Even though they are nationalised they are nowhere near as good as the previously nationalised EC was. They are slightly better than VTEC. But as i say only slightly. I find that very little has changed. They are basically just VTEC in disguise. I think that one of the major mistakes was keeping the entire management team. They really should have replaced all the managers.

So what are your views about the six different operators (BR/GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC/LNER) of the East Coast Main Line franchise? Which do you think was the best? Which do you think was the worst? I would be interested to hear your views about this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were all pretty dross, to be honest. None a patch on VTWC.

 

[yorksrob]

I will say GNER, I don't recall having difficulty getting a cheap fare in those days, although to be fair, the same could probably be said of NXEC and East Coast. These seem to be more difficult to come by since Virgin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will say GNER, I don't recall having difficulty getting a cheap fare in those days, although to be fair, the same could probably be said of NXEC and East Coast. These seem to be more difficult to come by since Virgin.

GNER were good if you had a First Open, but generally treated standard and Weekend First passengers like dog dirt on their shoe. They also came up with the worst design of seat anywhere, with a forward sloping base. VTEC fixed this with new cushions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR (as a TOC) was gifted the ECML upgrade (electrification, resignalling and IC225 trains) in 1991.
GNER also had best use of that infrastructure, and were torpedoed only by the financial failure of their parent during their second franchise.
NXEC/EC operated when the train fleet and infrastructure were beginning to show their age - particularly class 91s and the OHLE.
VTEC/LNER faced more of that and were/are trying to implement enhanced services (frequency and routes) at the same time.
LNER also faces a huge task to replace all the rolling stock over the next couple of years.

While obsolescence is not as bad as the WCML reached in the 1980s and during WCRM, the ECML faces significant disruption as the ageing infrastructure is replaced.
You have to set the performance of the operators into the bigger picture with NR and the route's assets.
I think there was probably bound to be a gradually declining performance on the ECML, whoever the operator was.
The DfT probably has another definition of "best TOC", based on how the finances went.
I wouldn't know who comes out best on that yardstick, GNER Mk2 possibly, before Sea Containers pulled the plug.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I haven’t travelled with LNER and don’t think I did with VTEC so can’t comment on those two. Of the other four my order would be:

GNER
BR
East Coast
NXEC

BR provided a good service but GNER come out top for the Regional Eurostars, which I loved travelling on, and their toasted cheese sandwiches.

 

[hexagon789]

I did like GNER, but one just has to look at a BR timetable to see how quick some of the crack expresses once were. Edinburgh in 3 hrs 59 with two-stops, Glasgow in 4 hrs 57.

The two-hourly Glasgow service was very useful, very comfortable going to York in a 225.

I'm too young for BR days, but I can clearly remember GNER, so that's what I'm voting for.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm fascinated by the number of votes for GNER. The constantly told us they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we thought they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we should tell other people that we thought they were amazing. They seemed much the same as all the others to me, and in terms of putting things right when they went wrong they could having a stinking attitude. The answer to everything was "fill in a complaints form and post it to us", which was no solution to "there is a thing wrong now that you could put right immediately".

What was so different with GNER that didn't apply either before or after?

 

[Scott M]

Suspect a lot of people will vote for GNER because they had arguably the best livery of all time.

 

[hexagon789]

Suspect a lot of people will vote for GNER because they had arguably the best livery of all time.

I voted GNER, but think InterCity Swallow was the best livery they carried.

I'm fascinated by the number of votes for GNER. The constantly told us they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we thought they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we should tell other people that we thought they were amazing. They seemed much the same as all the others to me, and in terms of putting things right when they went wrong they could having a stinking attitude. The answer to everything was "fill in a complaints form and post it to us", which was no solution to "there is a thing wrong now that you could put right immediately".

What was so different with GNER that didn't apply either before or after?

I put GNER because I can remember travelling with them, I never had any issues with staff, significant delays, stock maintainance (trains being clean/in good state of repair). GNER also made service improvements, using North of London 373 Eurostars on select Leeds workings, obtaining off-lease HST sets to enable a regular 2tph Leeds service, the "Mallard" refurbishment on 225s making all sets the same formation, lengthening the HSTs from 2+8 to 2+9.

Not being alive in the BR era, I can ony look at things subjectively and the only thing I can conclusively note is faster "crack" services - The Flying Scotsman and Scottish Pullman services for instance.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

GNER - the restaurant car served fantastic evening meals and breakfasts. A 4-hour evening ride to Edinburgh was a chance to eat a good meal, drink some decent wine and relax in a way no other mode of transport could ever achieve.

 

[delt1c]

BR, who allowed both classes to use the resturaunt car, quality buffet car and trolley service

 

[yorksrob]

GNER were good if you had a First Open, but generally treated standard and Weekend First passengers like dog dirt on their shoe. They also came up with the worst design of seat anywhere, with a forward sloping base. VTEC fixed this with new cushions.

They seemed decent enough in steerage, which is where I spend my time on the ECML.

 

[thejuggler]

Not a very regular user, maybe half a dozen times a year over almost 30 years both to London and Edinburgh from Leeds, but TBH all have served me well. The 225 is still a pleasant place to sit for a couple of hours.

In BR days we had a problem due to severe snow which meant at least twice as many on board as usual and it took about 6 hours London to Leeds, but even BR didn't control weather!

Also had an issue with Virgin. following a lineside fire leading to ECML closure and severe delays staff said taxis would be waiting in Leeds when we arrived at almost midnight.

Of course there were no taxis, just a single employee trying to find taxis for a fully loaded MML and a Virgin service which arrived within 5 minutes of each other. Nice earner for taxi drivers who picked up the Scarborough runs.

 

[Iskra]

I only used GNER a small handful of times so beyond liking their livery and the 373's I can't comment on them. From the operators I've used on a reasonable frequency it would be:

1) LNER. Things seem more reliable and professional again. When things have gone wrong, they have more than made up for it. They seem to be preparing to reverse some of the worst of VTEC.
2) East Coast. They seemed to care, and the staff were happy and motivated. It always had the appearance of a stop-gap organisation though.
3) VTEC. Awful. Full of promise but delivered naff all- couldn't live up to their patronising marketing hype. Steep decline in standards, staff motivation and the first class offer.

 

[tom73]

Cannot forgive VTEC for refusing to continue East Coast's Rewards loyalty scheme to go with the vastly inferior Nectar scheme. I remember collecting enough Rewards points to get a free First Class London-York ticket. Impossible to do with Nectar - unless you're willing to change your supermarket.

 

[AndrewP]

Travelled on this line for many years since I was a very small child to present day with regularity ranging from occasional to commuter. My thoughts are as follows:

• GNER were the best in my view giving a real quality service which just felt right
• InterCity were good too
• Virgin were good
• LNER are good but not as good as Virgin - they seem to be good at trimming the extras
• National Express were the worst by a long way - they just felt cheap in everything but their fares!

This quality matters to me as I can easily fly or drive as the nature of my work means that when I need to travel tends to be expensive.

I have tried the alternatives and liked Hull Trains to Doncaster but haven't used them in ages but don't like Grand Central (although they do have great staff) as they seem to have jammed trains and no concept of working air conditioning

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suspect a lot of people will vote for GNER because they had arguably the best livery of all time.

That was in some ways my point. GNER basically had a fancy livery (which in my view looked good until the PRM orange doors were added, which themselves made it look absolutely terrible) and otherwise just carried on operating the relatively modern kit they had inherited from BR on roughly the timetables operated by BR. Nothing special at all, which when coupled with the arrogant attitude from the top down made them not at all what they were made out to be.

The "Mallard" refurb promised to be nice, but the seat design was imbecilic - worse even than the piece of fabric-covered metal that the Class 800 uses. Who ever thought a seat with no underthigh support at all (due to sloping the wrong way) would work? Fortunately the frames they used were solid, and Virgin/Stagecoach replaced those "innovative" (!) one piece cushions with new two-piece cushions which are pretty comfortable.

 

[GrimShady]

VTEC were horrific!

 

[Failed Unit]

Although I think GNER were the best I must admit I didn’t agree with some things they did. For example they should have worked with Central Trains to get a decent connecting service to Lincoln rather than set up a coach service. They didn’t really do much to develop routes outside their area which to some extent gave us GC and HT.

Sadly some of the headline times were lost as well.

But they did attempt to give us a quality product even if they didn’t get everything right. You got the feeling the staff had some pride in their employer.

National express just started the decline.

 

[tbtc]

People remember GNER fondly, though they didn't seem to expand the routes.

People remember NXEC badly but they put the groundwork in for what became known as "Eureka" - they brought in the 180s to permit regular Lincoln services (something that DOR didn't implement, hence them being leased to Northern) and plans for Harrogate etc to get regular services.

NXEC was run more like a regular TOC (than a swanky "Flagship" with grand restaurant facilities etc) but that's no bad thing in my book. The GNER livery was significantly better than the dull NXEC one but I think NXEC get a worse reputation than they deserve.

GNER were good if you had a First Open, but generally treated standard and Weekend First passengers like dog dirt on their shoe. They also came up with the worst design of seat anywhere, with a forward sloping base. VTEC fixed this with new cushions.

I agree

I did like GNER, but one just has to look at a BR timetable to see how quick some of the crack expresses once were. Edinburgh in 3 hrs 59 with two-stops, Glasgow in 4 hrs 57

That was partly because it was in the days when London - Leeds was often just hourly and London - York only two/hour (no Newark/York terminators, no Open Access, no daytime Cross Country services north of Newcastle and generally only one XC service per hour north of York).

The fact that it's not simple to replicate this nowadays is more about the railway being so busy rather than one TOC being great

I'm fascinated by the number of votes for GNER. The constantly told us they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we thought they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we should tell other people that we thought they were amazing. They seemed much the same as all the others to me, and in terms of putting things right when they went wrong they could having a stinking attitude. The answer to everything was "fill in a complaints form and post it to us", which was no solution to "there is a thing wrong now that you could put right immediately".

What was so different with GNER that didn't apply either before or after?

It's funny how so many of the people nostalgic for GNER disliked the "arrogance" of Virgin (East or West Coast).

GNER acted like they were a cut above the rest of the railway, so much so that they didn't want you to connect onto Provincial trains - they advertised coaches connecting at Newark/ Doncaster etc for passengers going to Lincoln/ Grimsby/ Hull (so the local TOCs didn't get a slice of the ORCATS)

IF VTEC had acted like this, enthusiasts would have had kittens!

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit they didn’t seem to want a national rail system. Remember the parkways? Let’s have people drive to Doncaster parkway rather than change into a local train at Doncaster. That in addition to the coaches to complete with other franchised operators already highlighted.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

GNER were bequeathed by 'deeply inefficient BR' a thoroughly modernised electrified main-line and largely new rolling stock - sure they improved customer service and had a fancy new livery but did little else. Top management had an insufferable and haughty attitude - failing to accept other operators' tickets at times of disruption and ludicrously running coach services from Bradford and Lincoln instead of acknowledging connecting rail services. Hubris came with the second term which they were desperate to win at any cost, and substantially overbid as a result. Leisure traffic, on which the ECML is so much more dependent than the WCML, collapsed with worries over the terrorist attack on London. Staff numbers were slashed and customer service markedly declined. Free-marketeer CEO Christopher Garnett then complained about proposed competition from open-access operators. Apologists for privatisation contend that the difficulties of parent company Sea Containers prompted the collapse, but GNER was in very serious difficulties anyway. So no, I haven't voted for GNER.

 

[Darandio]

I've voted for equally as average because none wasn't an option. No operator has been that good, certainly not in a way that stands head and shoulders above the others.

 

[PG]

1) LNER. Things seem more reliable and professional again. When things have gone wrong, they have more than made up for it. They seem to be preparing to reverse some of the worst of VTEC.
2) East Coast. They seemed to care, and the staff were happy and motivated. It always had the appearance of a stop-gap organisation though.
3) VTEC. Awful. Full of promise but delivered naff all- couldn't live up to their patronising marketing hype. Steep decline in standards, staff motivation and the first class offer.

I can't agree with your number 1 as, to me, LNER seems to be pretty much VTEC with a new name but 2 & 3 spot on.

I'm voting East Coast because any TOC's best asset is their staff and a happy motivated workforce really does make a positive difference.
That comes from the top and works its way down - good leadership inspires people and makes them feel valued - it showed where it mattered at the sharp end.

 

[hexagon789]

That was partly because it was in the days when London - Leeds was often just hourly and London - York only two/hour (no Newark/York terminators, no Open Access, no daytime Cross Country services north of Newcastle and generally only one XC service per hour north of York).

The fact that it's not simple to replicate this nowadays is more about the railway being so busy rather than one TOC being great

Oh I appreciate the ECML is an awful lot busier now that in the early 1990s, it was more about just pointing out that schedules are no faster.

 

[swt class 450]

Thanks for all the votes and comments so far. Very interesting results of the poll.

GNER certainly seem to be extremely popular. They have gotten about 50% of the vote. I suppose they did have quite a good service. Although not quite as good as BR in my opinion.

I am very surprised by how many votes that VTEC has got. I didn't know that many people liked them. I found them to be an awful company. I can't think of a single good thing about them.

What has really surprised me is that NXEC has gotten zero votes. I didn't think they were that bad. EC who replaced them was certainly better but i didn't think NXEC did too bad of a job compared to some of the others. I am surprised at the dislike that some people have for them. I used NXEC quite regularly and i was always happy with it. They seemed to provide a good quality service. They were better than LNER and certainly a million times better than VTEC in my opinion.

The only operators i have been unhappy with and had poor experiences have been VTEC and LNER. I was always happy with the first four (BR/GNER/NXEC/EC).

 

[falcon]

I'm fascinated by the number of votes for GNER. The constantly told us they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we thought they were amazing, and they constantly told us that we should tell other people that we thought they were amazing. They seemed much the same as all the others to me, and in terms of putting things right when they went wrong they could having a stinking attitude. The answer to everything was "fill in a complaints form and post it to us", which was no solution to "there is a thing wrong now that you could put right immediately".

What was so different with GNER that didn't apply either before or after?

GNER had a dedicated manager on the train as well as the guard to deal with all forms of customer service throught the entire train.

GNER made all staff stand at the doors of the train at every station to assist customers when alighting or boarding.

GNER introduced a half hourly service between Leeds and London Kings Cross.

GNER had 88 full resturant cars available to both standard and first class customers

GNER put an extra coach into the HST sets

GNER provided a standard plus facility in a dedicated coach with at seat service along with free biscuits, corissants, tea and coffee, a selection of two newspapers for holders of full standard calss tickets on peak and off peak trains.

GNER were without any doubt the best TOC and offered the best service of any TOC.

National Express destroyed the service.

 

[43096]

I only used GNER a small handful of times so beyond liking their livery and the 373's I can't comment on them. From the operators I've used on a reasonable frequency it would be:

1) LNER. Things seem more reliable and professional again. When things have gone wrong, they have more than made up for it. They seem to be preparing to reverse some of the worst of VTEC.
2) East Coast. They seemed to care, and the staff were happy and motivated. It always had the appearance of a stop-gap organisation though.
3) VTEC. Awful. Full of promise but delivered naff all- couldn't live up to their patronising marketing hype. Steep decline in standards, staff motivation and the first class offer.

Can't help but feel that anyone doing the VTEC awful, LNER much better routine are just on an anti-Virgin/Branson trip. Presumably those thinking that are oblivious to the fact that the management team (right up to David Horne as MD) are the same under LNER as they were under VTEC.

Likewise the misty-eyed nostalgia for GNER must be from full-fare first class ticket holders. "Bletchleyite" has it right on that.

 

[yorksrob]

GNER also made service improvements, using North of London 373 Eurostars on select Leeds workings, obtaining off-lease HST sets to enable a regular 2tph Leeds service,

Yes, the Eurostars were definitely a novel and interesting improvent to the Leeds service - seems like a long time ago.

And where would we have been without the extra HST's !