ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

43096 · 19 May 2019

Clansman said:
Surprising how many times both sets have made it up to Scotland.

I see one of the sets at least once or twice a week working up to Aberdeen, and on the odd occassion in Inverness.

As EC64 is in a common pool with EC51-63 it is totally unsurprising how many times you have seen it north of the border.

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Goldromans · 20 May 2019

Do we know yet if the refurbed sets will operate any Inverness diagrams regularly in the new timetable?

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

I've not had a look at the new timetable yet (on a long weekend just now!) but there seems to be more booked HSTs on the HML. The 0845 Inverness to Glasgow QS was an HST, as was the 0707 Glasgow QS to Inverness.

I did hear there'd be more HSTs on the HML - seems to be a rumour which actually turned out to be fact!

Goldromans · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
I've not had a look at the new timetable yet (on a long weekend just now!) but there seems to be more booked HSTs on the HML. The 0845 Inverness to Glasgow QS was an HST, as was the 0707 Glasgow QS to Inverness.

I did hear there'd be more HSTs on the HML - seems to be a rumour which actually turned out to be fact!

I'm guessing these could vary day to day between classics and refurbs, depending on staff availability?

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

Goldromans said:
Do we know yet if the refurbed sets will operate any Inverness diagrams regularly in the new timetable?

No, to be honest, I don't think the Classic sets & Inter7City sets are on the train crew diagrams - it just specifies 'HST 4C' (a 4 coach HST).

I'd imagine the refurb sets won't be seen on the HML much, as not many Inverness crews are trained on it yet (including myself). The Sunday runs for the refurb sets on the HML are, I think, a regular thing. Not sure how mamy Perth crews have been trained on the refurbs (they work HML services too)?

Set 5 is apparently heading for Inverness at the end of the month, that should cover the conversion training & once we're all trained up, hopefully the Inter7City sets will start replacing the Classic sets.

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

Goldromans said:
I'm guessing these could vary day to day between classics and refurbs, depending on staff availability?

Not sure - as I was saying in my other reply, I'm not sure we'll see many refurbs on the HML, other than the 2 on a Sunday.

Goldromans · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
Set 5 is apparently heading for Inverness at the end of the month, that should cover the conversion training & once we're all trained up, hopefully the Inter7City sets will start replacing the Classic sets.

Do you happen to know how many refurbs are needed to start taking classics out of service?

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

Goldromans said:
Do you happen to know how many refurbs are needed to start taking classics out of service?

Short answer: No

I think there are 13 Classic sets needed just now (maybe someone could correct that if I'm wrong..), so I suppose as long as there are 13 sets available, it wouldn't matter which ones are Classic or Refurb. The crew training is still an issue, though, although I think it's been curtailed to some extent for now, due to the extra HST diagrams in the new timetable.

InvHst · 20 May 2019

First official day and scotrails journeycheck having another nightmare
0944 is a 170 instead of HST
1046 is a HST instead of a 170??? Dunno why that is very confusing.

And also the 0834 Edinburgh to Inverness is a 170 not HST but nothing stated on system shocking

Steven_G · 20 May 2019

I see 43148 at Haymarket depot attached to refurbed set with the back HST missing.

Northhighland · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
No, to be honest, I don't think the Classic sets & Inter7City sets are on the train crew diagrams - it just specifies 'HST 4C' (a 4 coach HST).

I'd imagine the refurb sets won't be seen on the HML much, as not many Inverness crews are trained on it yet (including myself). The Sunday runs for the refurb sets on the HML are, I think, a regular thing. Not sure how mamy Perth crews have been trained on the refurbs (they work HML services too)?

Set 5 is apparently heading for Inverness at the end of the month, that should cover the conversion training & once we're all trained up, hopefully the Inter7City sets will start replacing the Classic sets.

Monty the training situation must surely becoming to an end? How long can it take to train crews? Summer is key on HML, need the extra capacity to be reliably delivered. Otherwise the positives amongst passengers will dissipate putting the whole project in a negative place.

Goldromans · 20 May 2019

What are the chances of us seeing any 5-coach classic sets? Considering all refurbs were meant to be in service by now the capability must surely be there, and the extra capacity would be a huge help over the summer.

chuff chuff · 20 May 2019

Northhighland said:
Monty the training situation must surely becoming to an end? How long can it take to train crews? Summer is key on HML, need the extra capacity to be reliably delivered. Otherwise the positives amongst passengers will dissipate putting the whole project in a negative place.

Training has been suspended in an effort to deliver this timetable with the absolute minimum of costly cancellations,.

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

InvHst said:
First official day and scotrails journeycheck having another nightmare
0944 is a 170 instead of HST
1046 is a HST instead of a 170??? Dunno why that is very confusing.

And also the 0834 Edinburgh to Inverness is a 170 not HST but nothing stated on system shocking

Remember, the timetable has just changed. These could very well be diagram changes. I know the 1727 Inverness to Glasgow QS is diagrammed for a 170 now.

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

chuff chuff said:
Training has been suspended in an effort to deliver this timetable with the absolute minimum of costly cancellations,.

Yes, that's correct. There's also a large number of trainees just now (particularly Drivers), so there's a lack of Instructors to do the HST training, as well as instructing Trainees - the instructor's turns also need to be covered if they're off on the HST training.

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
Short answer: No

I think there are 13 Classic sets needed just now (maybe someone could correct that if I'm wrong..), so I suppose as long as there are 13 sets available, it wouldn't matter which ones are Classic or Refurb. The crew training is still an issue, though, although I think it's been curtailed to some extent for now, due to the extra HST diagrams in the new timetable.

Yes, 13 Classic sets.

BRX · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
Yes, that's correct. There's also a large number of trainees just now (particularly Drivers), so there's a lack of Instructors to do the HST training, as well as instructing Trainees - the instructor's turns also need to be covered if they're off on the HST training.

This sounds very similar to the mess that Thameslink got themselves into last year. Dilemma of either getting on with training and reducing the available staff in the short term... Or keeping those staff available but holding up the training programme even further.

Northhighland · 20 May 2019

chuff chuff said:
Training has been suspended in an effort to deliver this timetable with the absolute minimum of costly cancellations,.

That sounds ok but if we end up with more substitute 170's in the busy summer months it will create negative publicity. Surely better to get it out of hte way and get the new service working reliably and punctually.

jingsmonty · 20 May 2019

Northhighland said:
That sounds ok but if we end up with more substitute 170's in the busy summer months it will create negative publicity. Surely better to get it out of hte way and get the new service working reliably and punctually.

Not really, as you'll end up with several trainee drivers kicking about. I think the plan is to get at least some of the drivers qualified & out driving, which will, in turn, free up instructors to do the rest of the HST training. We have 2 separate rosters in Inverness now (an HST & non HST link), as of this week.

Ideally, we would have everyone trained, but there's just too much else going on! There's been a big increase in instructors, but they're needed for the large number of trainee drivers we have/will have. There's been a big recruitment drive over the past year or so. It's certainly been challenging for us all! Most of us are HST trained now (if not converted to the refurbished sets).

Stoney1979 · 20 May 2019

Northhighland said:
That sounds ok but if we end up with more substitute 170's in the busy summer months it will create negative publicity. Surely better to get it out of hte way and get the new service working reliably and punctually.

Would certainly agree with that, otherwise it's just "kicking the can down the tracks". I suspect if Scotrail were honest about it and came out and said "we need to cancel x, y, z services to get people trained" they'd probably get a reasonably sympathetic ear - as long as, of course, tangible results and improvement came very soon afterwards.

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
Not really, as you'll end up with several trainee drivers kicking about. I think the plan is to get at least some of the drivers qualified & out driving, which will, in turn, free up instructors to do the rest of the HST training. We have 2 separate rosters in Inverness now (an HST & non HST link), as of this week.

Ideally, we would have everyone trained, but there's just too much else going on! There's been a big increase in instructors, but they're needed for the large number of trainee drivers we have/will have. There's been a big recruitment drive over the past year or so. It's certainly been challenging for us all! Most of us are HST trained now (if not converted to the refurbished sets).

Will it increase the likelihood of an HST-booked service operating with an HST?

Or are 170/158 substitutions still very possible/likely?

superalbs · 20 May 2019

mikey9 said:
Defo those fixed armrest, soft squishy foam, low level seats with knobs on

Terrible way to talk about the passengers! :lol:

InvHst · 20 May 2019

jingsmonty said:
Remember, the timetable has just changed. These could very well be diagram changes. I know the 1727 Inverness to Glasgow QS is diagrammed for a 170 now.

Well that's interesting then as realtime trains still says it's HST something ain't right here then what services are now meant to be HST and what ain't cause something ain't adding up here

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

InvHst said:
Well that's interesting then as realtime trains still says it's HST something ain't right here then what services are now meant to be HST and what ain't cause something ain't adding up here

I've yet to see current diagrams for the new timetable, be interesting to see what is actually booked HST now.

mcmad · 20 May 2019

Stoney1979 said:
Would certainly agree with that, otherwise it's just "kicking the can down the tracks". I suspect if Scotrail were honest about it and came out and said "we need to cancel x, y, z services to get people trained" they'd probably get a reasonably sympathetic ear - as long as, of course, tangible results and improvement came very soon afterwards.

I think after all the cancellations last December any chance of a sympathetic ear is long gone.

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

mcmad said:
I think after all the cancellations last December any chance of a sympathetic ear is long gone.

I agree, I think most passengers are fed up with cancellations and won't take such an excuse readily.

Stoney1979 · 20 May 2019

hexagon789 said:
I agree, I think most passengers are fed up with cancellations and won't take such an excuse readily.

Fair point. I suppose the reality is that it's a choice between biting the bullet and having purposeful cancellations (by that I mean ones during which people achieve training) in the short term with, hopefully, improvements coming sooner, or continued substitutions/overcrowding and real improvements taking longer.

The training won't happen by magic, something has to give. As Jingsmonty has said, it's a complex picture and things look pretty stretched right now - so, if/when the training can be fitted in is anyone's guess. Ironically, the lack of training will lead to more cancellations anyway. I just think it would be better to get on with it, even if some services have to be sacrificed in the short term.

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

Stoney1979 said:
Fair point. I suppose the reality is that it's a choice between biting the bullet and having purposeful cancellations (by that I mean ones during which people achieve training) in the short term with, hopefully, improvements coming sooner, or continued substitutions/overcrowding and real improvements taking longer.

The training won't happen by magic, something has to give. As Jingsmonty has said, it's a complex picture and things look pretty stretched right now - so, if/when the training can be fitted in is anyone's guess. Ironically, the lack of training will lead to more cancellations anyway. I just think it would be better to get on with it, even if some services have to be sacrificed in the short term.

I think if the cancellations had lasted for a shorter overall duration people would be more accepting, but they've been going on for a while now.

And isn't there still the risk of short terms cancellations even now? It just seems to be dragging on and on.

I do appreciate that it's short-term pain for long-term gain, but I'm not sure your average passenger sees it that way nor necessarily understands that either as such.

Stoney1979 · 20 May 2019

hexagon789 said:
I think if the cancellations had lasted for a shorter overall duration people would be more accepting, but they've been going on for a while now.

And isn't there still the risk of short terms cancellations even now? It just seems to be dragging on and on.

I do appreciate that it's short-term pain for long-term gain, but I'm not sure your average passenger sees it that way nor necessarily understands that either as such.

Wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. Just, from a layman's point of view, trying to see a way out of it asap.

hexagon789 · 20 May 2019

Stoney1979 said:
Wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. Just, from a layman's point of view, trying to see a way out of it asap.

I appreciate that ScotRail are a bit stuck, but here's hoping they do indeed get out of it ASAP.

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