First Group: General Discussion

Volvodart · 24 Jul 2019

When it was announced two months ago, they said it would take several months so not to expect anything quickly. One of the complications is that the pension scheme is due a full revaluation. I would not have thought they could not make an informed decision without the actual current deficit.

RailUK Forums

Robertj21a · 24 Jul 2019

Any update on Oldham ?

mic · 24 Jul 2019

Robertj21a said:
Any update on Oldham ?

they are cutting about 9 routes off from 1st September i would say the sooner the better i use them and the shocking state of some of the buses routes to go are Ashton routes 38/39/331/333/389/393 3 routes in Rochdale area and some school services

winston270twm · 24 Jul 2019

Robertj21a said:
There's a number of comments around, from usually respected individuals, suggesting that some other First Ops may be nearing a sale. On the other hand, there's been no shortage of such comments ever since the Northampton fiasco, so it may be nothing too imminent.

What kind of comments / suggestions are you seeing? Not seen anything posted speculation wise for a while.

Robertj21a · 24 Jul 2019

winston270twm said:
What kind of comments / suggestions are you seeing? Not seen anything posted speculation wise for a while.

Probably only the usual (as I mentioned) but coming from people who have proved to be accurate in the past. I know these things can take a long time to come to fruition so I'd *guess* it's arising from those people who are doing careful scans of the finances.

NorthernSpirit · 24 Jul 2019

mic said:
they are cutting about 9 routes off from 1st September, I would say the sooner the better I use them and the shocking state of some of the buses. routes to go are Ashton routes 38/39/331/333/389/393, 3 routes in Rochdale area and some school services.

So in effect, all that First Greater Manchester will have from the 1st September is the Standedge corridor services 180, 184 and X84? They may as well rebrand themselves as First Oldham.

NorthernSpirit · 24 Jul 2019

KendalKing said:
35583-35637 Wright StreetDeck’s for Hunslet Park.

Some of these could be for the 49, 50 and 50A, unless the York Road corridor is getting some more for the 19, 19A and 40? The 7Series routes (Primley Park, Alwoodley and Shadwell) will more than likely retain the current batch of hybrids.

Any further discussion on this should be posted in the First West Yorkshire & York thread.

DD12 · 24 Jul 2019

Volvodart said:
...... One of the complications is that the pension scheme is due a full revaluation. I would not have thought they could not make an informed decision without the actual current deficit.

Can anyone tell us WHEN the result of the revaluation will be known to First, please ?

-- I GUESS that IF negotiations are going-on to sell all or parts of First Bus UK, - First Group will have to "make good" any pension deficit at a "loss" to First Group (??)

Surreyman · 24 Jul 2019

DD12 said:
Can anyone tell us WHEN the result of the revaluation will be known to First, please ?

-- I GUESS that IF negotiations are going-on to sell all or parts of First Bus UK, - First Group will have to "make good" any pension deficit at a "loss" to First Group (??)

I assume that the sale of Queens Rd and Bolton to G/A and Rotala were on the basis that First retains long term pension liabilities for transferred staff up to the day of sale?
(And that transferring staff join the G/a and Rotala pensions schemes).

TheGrandWazoo · 24 Jul 2019

DD12 said:
Can anyone tell us WHEN the result of the revaluation will be known to First, please ?

-- I GUESS that IF negotiations are going-on to sell all or parts of First Bus UK, - First Group will have to "make good" any pension deficit at a "loss" to First Group (??)

I may well be wrong (wouldn’t be the first time) but they’re revalued every three years and First announced a worstening of the position last year.

As for any sale, I seen people do a couple of things. Either retain the liability or provide a dowry to ensure the scheme is adequately funded for the future (but gives you a clean break). The latter is what Philip Green did with BHS but got hauled back as it was deemed insufficient especially in light of the collapse.

mic · 24 Jul 2019

NorthernSpirit said:
So in effect, all that First Greater Manchester will have from the 1st September is the Standedge corridor services 180, 184 and X84? They may as well rebrand themselves as First Oldham.

they still have 3 Ashton services been 348/350 and 409 and agreed should be known as the above

winston270twm · 24 Jul 2019

Robertj21a said:
Probably only the usual (as I mentioned) but coming from people who have proved to be accurate in the past. I know these things can take a long time to come to fruition so I'd *guess* it's arising from those people who are doing careful scans of the finances.

Just wondered, as not seen anything posted for a while where I normally look.

TheGrandWazoo · 24 Jul 2019

winston270twm said:
Just wondered, as not seen anything posted for a while where I normally look.

Can't help but agree.

Not heard of anything other substantive than the Manchester sales with the two announced being rumoured in advance to the correct sellers, and Oldham having someone interested who then elected not to.

Thankfully, we seem to have had a break from the usual 2+2 speculation.

Robertj21a · 24 Jul 2019

winston270twm said:
Just wondered, as not seen anything posted for a while where I normally look.

Agreed, I've not seen anything posted online anywhere. These very quiet periods often seem to be when all the key stuff is happening, but in the background of course.

winston270twm · 24 Jul 2019

Robertj21a said:
Agreed, I've not seen anything posted online anywhere. These very quiet periods often seem to be when all the key stuff is happening, but in the background of course.

Sorry, I thought you'd come across some comments online, admittedly there are numerous threads/sites I don't view regularly, hence why I'd asked what you'd found.

Yes, calm before the storm. Needs sorting sooner rather than later. Uncertainty will do no good for the businesses if the process is long & drawn out.

DD12 · 24 Jul 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
I may well be wrong (wouldn’t be the first time) but they’re revalued every three years and First announced a worstening of the position last year.

As for any sale, I seen people do a couple of things. Either retain the liability or provide a dowry to ensure the scheme is adequately funded for the future (but gives you a clean break). The latter is what Philip Green did with BHS but got hauled back as it was deemed insufficient especially in light of the collapse.

Thanks TGW, and Surreyman.

gka472l · 24 Jul 2019

Blackpudding said:
Yes they do suggest that but there are fleet numbers not being used within each batch because they were previously used by Routemasters. The total number is 77.

Is it the case that First cannot reuse numbers then?? Quite a few Stagecoach numbers are on their second use, although I think there is a period of time that has to pass before a number can be re-used.....

Jordan Adam · 24 Jul 2019

gka472l said:
Is it the case that First cannot reuse numbers then?? Quite a few Stagecoach numbers are on their second use, although I think there is a period of time that has to pass before a number can be re-used.....

I'm fairly certain some of the 67xxx numbers used on LWB E200MMCs and E300s are in their 2nd use now.

gka472l · 24 Jul 2019

If 77 is correct as posted, and numbers are missing because of previous use, they would be 39405/28/42/67/86/90 as listed on here in the 'Sold' bit http://www.swhite.org.uk/steve/fg18.xlsx

overthewater · 24 Jul 2019

Would any announcement be left until after the summer? This would give any talks a bit of breathing space. However I do agree the pension are a sticking point, but I dont think it will be certain depots that will get sold off, ie no more Manchesters. Anyways It looks like Buses of Somerset is getting refresh going by its Facebook page:

Buses of Somerset - Behind The Scenes Facebook page:

Blackpudding · 24 Jul 2019

gka472l said:
If 77 is correct as posted, and numbers are missing because of previous use, they would be 39405/28/42/67/86/90 as listed on here in the 'Sold' bit http://www.swhite.org.uk/steve/fg18.xlsx

Yep. Those are the ones missing in the gas bus fleet numbers.

TheGrandWazoo · 24 Jul 2019

Blackpudding said:
Yep. Those are the ones missing in the gas bus fleet numbers.

Ahh right. That makes sense - thanks for the information

47550 · 24 Jul 2019

SKM reports that Stagecoach Manchester have added 3 Enviro 200s and some Tridents their reserve fleet. Maybe to take on the First routes that are being given up in Ashton ?

Jordan Adam · 24 Jul 2019

47550 said:
SKM reports that Stagecoach Manchester have added 3 Enviro 200s and some Tridents their reserve fleet. Maybe to take on the First routes that are being given up in Ashton ?

Off topic i know, but those E400's would be useful in Aberdeenshire where there's a long running decker shortage!

47550 · 24 Jul 2019

...and 4 Enviro 400s as well. I wonder if this is part of a Northampton style retreat and handover to Stagey.

mic said:
they are cutting about 9 routes off from 1st September i would say the sooner the better i use them and the shocking state of some of the buses routes to go are Ashton routes 38/39/331/333/389/393 3 routes in Rochdale area and some school services

47550 said:
SKM reports that Stagecoach Manchester have added 3 Enviro 200s and some Tridents their reserve fleet. Maybe to take on the First routes that are being given up in Ashton ?

Blackpudding · 24 Jul 2019

47550 said:
SKM reports that Stagecoach Manchester have added 3 Enviro 200s and some Tridents their reserve fleet. Maybe to take on the First routes that are being given up in Ashton ?

The smaller vehicles would be useful for Ashton. The next timetable change is late October so who knows what may transpire. Just to note as well that First having lost some Yellow School Bus (YSB) routes operating out of Oldham have also won one as well as some non YSB routes which came as a bit of a surprise (to me at least).

Blackpudding · 24 Jul 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Ahh right. That makes sense - thanks for the information

Sorry not to have included the numbers in our exchange this morning but I stupidly thought you were just concerned with the total number.

47550 · 24 Jul 2019

Blackpudding said:
The smaller vehicles would be useful for Ashton. The next timetable change is late October so who knows what may transpire. Just to note as well that First having lost some Yellow School Bus (YSB) routes operating out of Oldham have also won one as well as some non YSB routes which came as a bit of a surprise (to me at least).

Been a while since I have been to Ashton but I presume the routes First are surrendering don’t need deckers. Maybe the deckers are for a 409 takeover ? Pure speculation of course but you would have thought that Stagecoach would be interested in taking it on if it is as profitable as has been quoted and First are phasing a closure of Oldham if they cannot find a buyer ?

Whiteway215 · 24 Jul 2019

gka472l said:
Is it the case that First cannot reuse numbers then?? Quite a few Stagecoach numbers are on their second use, although I think there is a period of time that has to pass before a number can be re-used.....

Another example is Bath's Park & Ride E40H Hybrids which are 39133-5/7-41 as 39136 was a Leicester Dennis Dominator. Perhaps I should say used to be on Bath's P & R as only two (39133/40) remain on those duties. The others are parked up in Lawrence Hill Depot, Bristol possibly awaiting Euro 6 diesel engines.

Blackpudding · 24 Jul 2019

47550 said:
Been a while since I have been to Ashton but I presume the routes First are surrendering don’t need deckers. Maybe the deckers are for a 409 takeover ? Pure speculation of course but you would have thought that Stagecoach would be interested in taking it on if it is as profitable as has been quoted and First are phasing a closure of Oldham if they cannot find a buyer ?

I'll reply to this in the TfGM thread.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfgm-area-bus-timetable-updates-and-general-news.80316/

First Group: General Discussion

Established Member

RailUK Forums

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member