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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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scotraildriver

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I reckon GWR has kept the cream of the crop and Scotland got the dregs.
Experience counts for alot, especially amongst maintenance staff. Look as the trouble Southern and Northern are having with their 170s which operated successfully in Scotland for 20 years.
 
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I reckon GWR has kept the cream of the crop and Scotland got the dregs.
Which doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny, as a) ScotRail made the decision to go for HSTs well before the GWR retained fleet was decided on, b) it's basically a ROSCO decision as to which go where and c) the GWR retained fleet is partly made up of First-owned vehicles, which were the worst condition of the GWR fleet.
Experience counts for alot, especially amongst maintenance staff. Look as the trouble Southern and Northern are having with their 170s which operated successfully in Scotland for 20 years.
Strange then that the current Modern Railways shows ScotRail sets being 5,800 MTIN and GWR sets as 3,690 MTIN.
 

scotraildriver

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Strange then that the current Modern Railways shows ScotRail sets being 5,800 MTIN and GWR sets as 3,690 MTIN.[/QUOTE]

Very interesting. So Scotrail HSTs are considerably more reliable than GWRs. That puts alot of the points on this thread to bed!
 

Altnabreac

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The franchise runs till 2025, I suspect that will be the natural point to look at replacement with the bidders.

I think it will depend on how much electrification has reached northwards by 2025.

If the wires have barely made it from Dunblane to Perth then a Bi-Mode order is going to be the most likely replacement and would seem probable that it would happen early in the next franchise.

If however there is more definite electrification progress and it looks likely that wires will reach Aberdeen in the late 2020s then it may make more sense to try and keep using the HSTs for a few more years until they can be replaced by entirely electric stock.
 

47271

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Exciting news for us up here - there's a refurbed set out in the service on the Highland Main Line this morning, it's on the 0707 Queen Street-Inverness just now.

Interesting also on the MTIN results. I don't doubt it, and I agree that never yet have I been inconvenienced by a Scotrail HST breaking down. However, given that every other part of the programme is a shambles and I have no understanding of how data is captured when, for example, there's a last minute substitution of a 170 caused by staff shortages, I'm not getting too carried away on this until we have stable operation. Trains stuck in depots because they don't have crew can't have much in the way of technical incidents.
 

Altnabreac

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Exciting news for us up here - there's a refurbed set out in the service on the Highland Main Line this morning, it's on the 0707 Queen Street-Inverness just now.

Interesting also on the MTIN results. I don't doubt it, and I agree that never yet have I been inconvenienced by a Scotrail HST breaking down. However, given that every other part of the programme is a shambles and I have no understanding of how data is captured when, for example, there's a last minute substitution of a 170 caused by staff shortages, I'm not getting too carried away on this until we have stable operation. Trains stuck in depots because they don't have crew can't have much in the way of technical incidents.

But also won't generate any Miles in the MTIN equation so that shouldn't particularly skew the results.
 

47271

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But also won't generate any Miles in the MTIN equation so that shouldn't particularly skew the results.
Okay, so it might be genuinely good news then.

Maybe not hammering them at high speed over long distances is suiting them after all.
 

Bassman

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Talk of 800 - unfortunately it’s all about money.

Refurbished HST and MK3 coaches are far cheaper than sets of 800.

I don’t recall the HST even being talked about a couple of years ago. 170’s was as good as it was going to get.
I think this reflects the low aspirations we have had for our rail network. At least we now see it as an intercity network with high speed trains, and increased speed and quality. The problem that as has been mentioned, is doing it with sufficient planning to improve the rail network, i.e new robust lines and electrification , and associated trains. The HST provides a cheap fix, and has to be welcomed for trying to raise the bar.
 

InvHst

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Exciting news for us up here - there's a refurbed set out in the service on the Highland Main Line this morning, it's on the 0707 Queen Street-Inverness just now.

Interesting also on the MTIN results. I don't doubt it, and I agree that never yet have I been inconvenienced by a Scotrail HST breaking down. However, given that every other part of the programme is a shambles and I have no understanding of how data is captured when, for example, there's a last minute substitution of a 170 caused by staff shortages, I'm not getting too carried away on this until we have stable operation. Trains stuck in depots because they don't have crew can't have much in the way of technical incidents.

I was on it leaking in the rear coach though apparently
 

Highland37

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Here's the scene next to the empty refurbished set in Inverness, the 1046,three car 170 to Glasgow.

Every seat taken, trolley taken off as no space, disabled people unable to board, bikes and passengers left behind, no reservations and a dirty, unpleasant travelling environment. This will be repeated several times today.

All because of a failure to deliver anything close to the service promise through HSTs. The roof on the refurbished set looked pretty dodgy.

This is a railway stuck in the early 90s. Diesel throughout, mk2s and 3s on the sleeper which are ancient. 158s and 170s full to bursting. Not in service 40 years old trains and an attitude even more historic.
 

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marks87

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I’m afraid to announce it’s been cancelled between Perth and Inverness TMD due to a request by the customer.

At least it's in Scotland, though. The cancellations just means ScotRail have decided to leave it in Perth instead of it heading up to Inverness.
 
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Does Anyone know if sets HA12 to HA16 are in storage (most likely Ely) or at Wabtec for refurbishment, giving the fact sets HA17/18/19 are undergoing refurbishment at Wabtec
 

Killingworth

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I'd be interested to know what Scotrail make of roofs that leak after spending as much as they have to get an as new train delivered many months after contracted.

Do the short GWR units leak? Have there been issues with the XC coaches? It's amazing that they aren't even watertight. One perhaps, but how many?
 

scotraildriver

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It's not amazing at all. It's 40 year old steel which has corroded through. Lots leak but not all.
 

alangla

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It's not amazing at all. It's 40 year old steel which has corroded through. Lots leak but not all.
Hence why they should have gone to Booths rather than Wabtec.
This project is looking increasingly like good money thrown after bad.
I’m going to say it - suspend the refurbs, patch up the classics and power cars as well as possible, then muddle through till an off the shelf Hitachi, CAF or Stadtler design can be delivered. Either that or if, through some miracle, Voyager or Meridian units are freed up, then grab them. The Adelante units are even more of a liability so should be avoided, I doubt even manufacturer support at Polmadie would fix them acceptably.
 

BRX

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It's amazing that they aren't even watertight. One perhaps, but how many?
Well, do we know how many? I don't think we actually have any idea whether it's a major problem or not.
I deal with old buildings. It's notoriously difficult to work out where water is getting in, in some cases. Seems not that surprising to me that after coming into service there could be some leaks that did not get picked up in static workshop conditions. If the leaks can be fixed, it doesn't seem necessarily a big deal in the overall scheme of things.
 

Highland37

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Some of the posts previously would suggest, nor quantify, that the issue is not isolated but a general one.

Why don't you think it is an issue? These are meant to be in as-new condition.
 

Northhighland

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Here's the scene next to the empty refurbished set in Inverness, the 1046,three car 170 to Glasgow.

Every seat taken, trolley taken off as no space, disabled people unable to board, bikes and passengers left behind, no reservations and a dirty, unpleasant travelling environment. This will be repeated several times today.

All because of a failure to deliver anything close to the service promise through HSTs. The roof on the refurbished set looked pretty dodgy.

This is a railway stuck in the early 90s. Diesel throughout, mk2s and 3s on the sleeper which are ancient. 158s and 170s full to bursting. Not in service 40 years old trains and an attitude even more historic.


Sadly what you say is my regular experience of summer on the HML. It does show a lack of ambition, we were supposed to have Scotland’s best ever Railway in place by now. We don’t.

The only real solution here is the HST programme. Certainly in the next 5 years. The roof issue is surely easily fixed in any location

There are a number of proprietary roofing systems that could easily be applied to this situation and applied anywhere. Can’t believe if this is a serious problem it wasn’t done at Wabtec, the stock was there long enough after all.

Just seems another example of really poor project management.

Surely somewhere in Scotrail embarrassment must be mounting? Surely some change will be on the cards?
 

Northhighland

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Strange then that the current Modern Railways shows ScotRail sets being 5,800 MTIN and GWR sets as 3,690 MTIN.

Very interesting. So Scotrail HSTs are considerably more reliable than GWRs. That puts alot of the points on this thread to bed![/QUOTE]

That is really good news, of course a considerable way off the figure generated by LNER. However that does correlate with the experience of Scotrail maintenance teams on the 170’s. I have touch wood in my years of travelling never had a broken down train as a reason for delay. Units always maintained well and presented reasonably well.

So now it would appear then it is just training g that is stopping the service being fully introduced?
 
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