GWR Dec 19 timetable

50031 · 17 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
No GWR Guards sign 387s full stop. They are only operated DOO(P) at present.

DOO agreement prohibits extensions of DOO operations beyond its current Geographical limits; so Swindon will require Guards.

There have been aspirations to run 387s in regular passenger service to/from Swindon; to date they are only aspirations with no firm/committed plans.

Thanks for the info. Makes sense to do one step at a time.

RailUK Forums

jimm · 17 Aug 2019

50031 said:
Because it was reported as a proposal to to start back some 387s from Swindon (Morning only) , in any case, the intention has been to clear 387s through to Cardiff as Crowdbusters for Rugby and other events..

Obviously I'm not suggesting demand from Swindon to Cholsey, Goring, Pangbourne, Tilehurst!

Where this came from was interpretations of this line in a presentation given in 2015 by FGW/GWR about future service plans.

Additional Oxford to London and peak hour fast trains from Swindon (am) to/from Didcot (am & pm)

This appeared in a section headed 'London & Thames Valley', so an assumption was made that this was a reference to operation by FGW/GWR's LTV services group, which would be using emus (a mixed fleet of 387s and 365s was planned at the time).

Instead, what is going to happen from December is the provision of an IET service starting from Swindon at 06.45, and the first train of the day from Cheltenham, instead of being a dmu terminating at Swindon, will be an IET that leaves Swindon for Paddington at 05.56 - thus fulfilling the pledge of more morning peak trains to London.

387s could appear at some point in future, but I expect GWR want to see how the new services bed in and how passengers's habits adjust before making any decisions about other options to adopt, if necessary.

Class 170101 · 17 Aug 2019

FGW_Lad said:
I know this is not strictly GWR related but as the Reading to Paddington stoppers will be transferred to TFL, will the full 9 car 345s be used?

kevin_roche said:
Yes the Heathrow operation of 345s, known as Phase 2.2, is not planned until Phase 5a, Paddington to Reading, has been running for 3 months at the earliest.

There is a requirement to validate the running of the TPWS signalling under the ETCS which is how the software on the 9-car units is set up. The current 7-car operation is with standalone TPWS. I believe that the Hayes & Harlington service has also been operated by a 9 car units in the evening in order to test that configuration too.

I wasn't aware that 7 car operation of Hayes services was still on going on the west. However won't this need to cease soon as I would have thought the 7 cars would be needed back on the GE side of Crossrail to displace Class 315s to the knackers yard for PRM compliance at the end of this year?

Bikeman78 · 17 Aug 2019

Class 170101 said:
I wasn't aware that 7 car operation of Hayes services was still on going on the west. However won't this need to cease soon as I would have thought the 7 cars would be needed back on the GE side of Crossrail to displace Class 315s to the knackers yard for PRM compliance at the end of this year?

The 315s have been PRM compliant for quite a while. I think some will be retained until Crossrail starts.

Minstral25 · 19 Aug 2019

Looking at GWR's new Timetable for the North Downs it seems several trains are now much slower than before due to 769's being imposed on the line.

What is the point of replacing stock with slower and inferior units? The North Downs timings have been poor for a long time but why are they (GWR/NR/DfT) imposing even slower services?

CharlesR · 19 Aug 2019

Minstral25 said:
Looking at GWR's new Timetable for the North Downs it seems several trains are now much slower than before due to 769's being imposed on the line.

What is the point of replacing stock with slower and inferior units? The North Downs timings have been poor for a long time but why are they (GWR/NR/DfT) imposing even slower services?

769s won’t be joining the fleet until during 2020. I highly doubt that the services are “slower” due to the 769s but we will wait and see.

Minstral25 · 19 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
769s won’t be joining the fleet until during 2020. I highly doubt that the services are “slower” due to the 769s but we will wait and see.

The Timetable has been recast this December with 769 timings ready for when they arrive as you can only change timetables twice a year. All trains I have checked take longer than they did with 165/6's.

Appreciate they will be run with 165/6's initially until the 769's arrive.

swt_passenger · 19 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
769s won’t be joining the fleet until during 2020. I highly doubt that the services are “slower” due to the 769s but we will wait and see.

Forum member HamworthyGoods, writing in the “3tph on North Downs” thread a couple of weeks ago, stated the 769 timings on diesel are definitely slower, and that’s what the Dec timetable is written for.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/3tph-on-north-downs-line.140595/page-19#post-4136101

JN114 · 19 Aug 2019

Minstral25 said:
What is the point of replacing stock with slower and inferior units? The North Downs timings have been poor for a long time but why are they (GWR/NR/DfT) imposing even slower services?

Because they provide more capacity than the Turbos, which are needed to replace non PRM compliant stock elsewhere. Speed and Journey times aren’t everything.

Clarence Yard · 19 Aug 2019

In theory, using the timing model that NR mandates, the cl.769 are slower but as none are yet running on NR, those timings can't be disproved by any of the three operators. So the slower timings have to be input into the timetable by Northern/TfW/GWR.

The cl.769 units are not required to replace any non-PRM stock on GWR. They were originally intended to displace Turbos to displace cl.150 stock to be sent to Northern. Only 2 sets (the cl.150/0 sets) are now currently destined to go to Northern as the DfT are considering extra local services in the West, as part of the DA3 proposal, which will require retention of the other cl.150 sets that were due to go.

Minstral25 · 19 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
Because they provide more capacity than the Turbos, which are needed to replace non PRM compliant stock elsewhere. Speed and Journey times aren’t everything.

The extra standard class capacity is 15 seats - hardly worth the slower trains

Clarence Yard said:
The cl.769 units are not required to replace any non-PRM stock on GWR. They were originally intended to displace Turbos to displace cl.150 stock to be sent to Northern. Only 2 sets (the cl.150/0 sets) are now currently destined to go to Northern as the DfT are considering extra local services in the West, as part of the DA3 proposal, which will require retention of the other cl.150 sets that were due to go.

In which case why bother to convert them, we could keep the 165/6 on the North Downs and save money? Although I think it would be best overall to improve services everywhere but the 769's could go west instead.

CharlesR · 19 Aug 2019

Minstral25 said:
Although I think it would be best overall to improve services everywhere but the 769's could go west instead.

The 769s are to be used between Reading-Oxford as well I believe, and there isn’t (or a minimal amount) of OHLE around the West area. 5 car Turbos for use on Cardiff-Portsmouth services are a must at the moment as the increased capacity is needed - 769s wouldn’t justify it.

Clarence Yard · 19 Aug 2019

Units that are 75mph on diesel are not exactly what is required in the Bristol area so that’s why the Turbos are needed to go west.

Getting four cars onto the North Downs also helps with loadings.

The alternative is to keep the Turbos on the North Downs and forget about the extra services in the west until some more c.158 become available in 2021. If the cl.769 get delivered in 2020, then you could introduce extra services a year earlier, in December 2020.

All depending on what additional services the DfT want to buy, of course.

FenMan · 20 Aug 2019

Clarence Yard said:
Units that are 75mph on diesel are not exactly what is required in the Bristol area so that’s why the Turbos are needed to go west.

Getting four cars onto the North Downs also helps with loadings.

The alternative is to keep the Turbos on the North Downs and forget about the extra services in the west until some more c.158 become available in 2021. If the cl.769 get delivered in 2020, then you could introduce extra services a year earlier, in December 2020.

All depending on what additional services the DfT want to buy, of course.

Apart from airport passengers and local journeys, the key is not the slower timings, but the connections at Reading, Guildford, Redhill and Gatwick. My local station is Blackwater and the Dec 19 timetable improves connections at Guildford and Reading, except to Bath/Bristol from the latter. I've not checked the Redhill-East Croydon and the Gatwick-Brighton timings yet as the data showing in Real Time Trains is incomplete.

Class 33 · 20 Aug 2019

I really can't wait for the new express services between Bristol and London start in December. About time! The return of EXPRESS services between Bristol and London again after such a long gap from when they last ran!

However I've just taken a quick look on Realtimetrains for services on weekends, and it appears these new express services won't be running on weekends! And is just the normal services like now of the Bristol TM-Bath Spa-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot Parkway(alternate services)-Reading-London Paddington calling stops. And just two services per hour. Is this correct? Or are the new express services on weekends not yet loaded into Realtimetrains?

Nicholas Lewis · 20 Aug 2019

Minstral25 said:
The Timetable has been recast this December with 769 timings ready for when they arrive as you can only change timetables twice a year. All trains I have checked take longer than they did with 165/6's.

Appreciate they will be run with 165/6's initially until the 769's arrive.

The proposed TAC agreement https://orr.gov.uk/rail/access-to-the-network/track-access/current-track-access-applications covering Dec 2019 onwards shows it as 165/1 timing. The increase in timings seems to be extended station dwell times not SRT on the 1Vxx services. Also i see GWR have applied for the enhanced Nth Downs Service from May 2020 albeit acknowledge that its dependent on LXing enhancements.

CharlesR · 21 Aug 2019

Class 33 said:
I really can't wait for the new express services between Bristol and London start in December. About time! The return of EXPRESS services between Bristol and London again after such a long gap from when they last ran!

However I've just taken a quick look on Realtimetrains for services on weekends, and it appears these new express services won't be running on weekends! And is just the normal services like now of the Bristol TM-Bath Spa-Chippenham-Swindon-Didcot Parkway(alternate services)-Reading-London Paddington calling stops. And just two services per hour. Is this correct? Or are the new express services on weekends not yet loaded into Realtimetrains?

I think it was always proposed to be for weekday off peak time only.

Class 33 · 21 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
I think it was always proposed to be for weekday off peak time only.

That's a shame. As for those who don't commute between Bristol and London, weekends are the most convenient days to travel for leisure travel. So disappointing to learn that after all this fuss, the new express services won't actually be running on these days! Also surprising as weekend services can get very busy, especially on Sundays, and could do with one or two additional services per hour at certain times of the day at least.

Oh well. Will have to make arrangements so I can get a return journey to London on or soon after Monday 16th December then, on the services with the Bristol Temple Meads-Bristol Parkway-London Paddington stopping pattern.

I also note with interest the new express services in the morning and evening peak in both directions between Bristol TM and London Paddington which run via the Bath Spa route, but run non-stop between Chippenham and London Paddington. Wouldn't mind getting some journeys on these services too, but ticket prices for these will cost a bomb! £109 single from Bristol?! No thanks! Though it looks like a journey on the 1900 service from London Paddington will cost about £50, which isn't quite as extortionate. Still expensive though, but might have to do it once.

I13 · 21 Aug 2019

Most of the via Parkway express services aren't meant to start in December, but at a later date. A few will still run, though.

Minstral25 · 21 Aug 2019

Nicholas Lewis said:
The proposed TAC agreement https://orr.gov.uk/rail/access-to-the-network/track-access/current-track-access-applications covering Dec 2019 onwards shows it as 165/1 timing. The increase in timings seems to be extended station dwell times not SRT on the 1Vxx services. Also i see GWR have applied for the enhanced Nth Downs Service from May 2020 albeit acknowledge that its dependent on LXing enhancements.

Interesting, the GWR draft timetables show them all as 769 timings. Probably mixed information in different departments.

CharlesR · 21 Aug 2019

Class 33 said:
Oh well. Will have to make arrangements so I can get a return journey to London on or soon after Monday 16th December then, on the services with the Bristol Temple Meads-Bristol Parkway-London Paddington stopping pattern.

I13 said:
Most of the via Parkway express services aren't meant to start in December, but at a later date. A few will still run, though.

Mintona · 22 Aug 2019

I’ve seen a copy of the timetable with planned stock formations on it. I think it’s just internal at the moment so I’m a little nervous to share too much here though. Hopefully it’ll all be released publicly soon.

irish_rail · 22 Aug 2019

Mintona said:
I’ve seen a copy of the timetable with planned stock formations on it. I think it’s just internal at the moment so I’m a little nervous to share too much here though. Hopefully it’ll all be released publicly soon.

I think we can pretty much guess. 9 cars on almost everything all day on the bristol, Cardiff, etc, with 10s on the Plymouth (5s west of plymouth) and I suspect rather too many 9s on the off peak oxfords , Cheltenham etc.

Mintona · 22 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
I think we can pretty much guess. 9 cars on almost everything all day on the bristol, Cardiff, etc, with 10s on the Plymouth (5s west of plymouth) and I suspect rather too many 9s on the off peak oxfords , Cheltenham etc.

I’ve not looked at Westcountry as it isn’t my area. Plenty of 5 cars on off peak Cheltenham and Bristol trains though. Including some which I would have thought would be 9 or 10.

DaveHarries · 22 Aug 2019

Mintona said:
I’ve seen a copy of the timetable with planned stock formations on it. I think it’s just internal at the moment so I’m a little nervous to share too much here though. Hopefully it’ll all be released publicly soon.

I wouldn't mind a copy of that as I am currently working on a SimSig timetable for Exeter PSB which is based on the info currently available for 16th December 2019. It would be helpful to know what the planned stock formations are for the trains to Taunton, Paignton, Exeter, Paignton & Plymouth.

Dave

CharlesR · 22 Aug 2019

Mintona said:
I’ve not looked at Westcountry as it isn’t my area. Plenty of 5 cars on off peak Cheltenham and Bristol trains though. Including some which I would have thought would be 9 or 10.

Not surprised. 1636 Paddington to Cheltenham runs as a five car (it’s booked as one) every single day and is crowded. Some days you won’t get a seat until Kemble or even Stroud.

DaveHarries · 22 Aug 2019

One question on diagrams for the new timetable.

I see from RealTimeTrains that, in the early hours of - for example - Tuesday 17th December there is a 2200 Paddington - Exeter St. Davids via. Bristol TM which arr. Exeter SD at 0113hrs. This train, code 1C36, then works as 5C36 to Exeter New Yard but there is no clue for what it will then do the following day. Anyone know?

Cheers,
Dave

800002 · 22 Aug 2019

I don't know,but looks like 5C50, which makes the 2P50 to Plymouth which then attaches to 1A78 Penzance - Pad.
The HST timing load should probably read Diesel / 802 on 5C50.

DaveHarries said:
One question on diagrams for the new timetable.

I see from RealTimeTrains that, in the early hours of - for example - Tuesday 17th December there is a 2200 Paddington - Exeter St. Davids via. Bristol TM which arr. Exeter SD at 0113hrs. This train, code 1C36, then works as 5C36 to Exeter New Yard but there is no clue for what it will then do the following day. Anyone know?

Cheers,
Dave

CharlesR · 22 Aug 2019

Deleted

Wilts Wanderer · 22 Aug 2019

800002 said:
I don't know,but looks like 5C50, which makes the 2P50 to Plymouth which then attaches to 1A78 Penzance - Pad.
The HST timing load should probably read Diesel / 802 on 5C50.

GWR / NR have not yet finalised a complete set of sectional timings for all the various depot and yard moves, as the emphasis has been rightly focused on getting the main running times correct. Therefore for minor moves such as this, the legacy HST timings continue to be employed.

GWR Dec 19 timetable

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