GWR Dec 19 timetable

[800002]

GWR / NR have not yet finalised a complete set of sectional timings for all the various depot and yard moves, as the emphasis has been rightly focused on getting the main running times correct. Therefore for minor moves such as this, the legacy HST timings continue to be employed.

I am sure that this is quite possibly true (however appalling it is that it's not been accomplished yet (not for discussion here i feel however), however, the SO 5C11, 0712 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD is listed as Diesel / 802 trailing load
5C11 - SO http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y96410/2019/12/21/advanced
Although, i shall say that the schedules are different, 5C11 merely shunts into Plt #3, which 5C50 SX 0649 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD double shunts, via Plt #1 and Signal #664 to Plt #4, so i shan't say that the 802 SRT for the second part of the shunt is present or not.
5C50 SX - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y97573/2019/12/17/advanced.

Regards my thought process for the 5C50 formation - it is below:-
5C50 0649 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD 0707 - HERE
2P50 0725 Exeter SD - Plymouth 0831 - HERE
1A78 [0710 Penzance - Paddington] PLY 0908 - 0915 a. Pad 1229 - HERE

Additionally, on the way down, 1C36 2200 Paddington - Exeter SD drops off vehicles at Bristol TM, making it a 5 Car, Bristol TM - Exeter SD. (Just to clear that up in my own mind).

 

[jimm]

I think we can pretty much guess. 9 cars on almost everything all day on the bristol, Cardiff, etc, with 10s on the Plymouth (5s west of plymouth) and I suspect rather too many 9s on the off peak oxfords , Cheltenham etc.

Ah yes, of course there will be too many nine-car sets going to Oxford and Cheltenham...

As you have been told far too many times now, most of the off-peak Cotswold Line trains - which make up half of the off-peak London-Oxford fast service - will be five-car sets, just the same as now.

Some of the other 50% of the fast services, which turn back at Oxford, will presumably be nine-car sets using up marginal time between long-distance duties, rather sitting around in London doing nothing - just the same as HSTs did for many years before an IET was even built. Or are you going to start complaining about this outrageous use of rolling stock to, er, carry fare-paying passengers.

Not surprised. 1636 Paddington to Cheltenham runs as a five car (it’s booked as one) every single day and is crowded. Some days you won’t get a seat until Kemble or even Stroud.

In the current timetable, this may be the case. However, my understanding is that the replacement 16.30 departure from Paddington from December will be a long IET formation, along with the 17.30 and 18.30. And that pretty much every weekday working on the Cheltenham route outside the peaks will be a five-car set, whatever the oracle of Plymouth may claim is the case.

 

[CharlesR]

In the current timetable, this may be the case. However, my understanding is that the replacement 16.30 departure from Paddington from December will be a long IET formation, along with the 17.30 and 18.30. And that pretty much every weekday working on the Cheltenham route outside the peaks will be a five-car set, whatever the oracle of Plymouth may claim is the case.

I was speaking to a Bristol based TM on the service just last week (it’s generally quieter this time of year) and he said that it should be changing due to the amount of issues surrounding it. To be honest the 16:32, 17:32 and 18:32 are the only ones that really should have the longer formation and in the mornings the 06:48, 07:58 and 08:58 to Paddington.

 

[DaveHarries]

I am sure that this is quite possibly true (however appalling it is that it's not been accomplished yet (not for discussion here i feel however), however, the SO 5C11, 0712 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD is listed as Diesel / 802 trailing load
5C11 - SO http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y96410/2019/12/21/advanced
Although, i shall say that the schedules are different, 5C11 merely shunts into Plt #3, which 5C50 SX 0649 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD double shunts, via Plt #1 and Signal #664 to Plt #4, so i shan't say that the 802 SRT for the second part of the shunt is present or not.
5C50 SX - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y97573/2019/12/17/advanced.

Regards my thought process for the 5C50 formation - it is below:-
5C50 0649 Exeter New Yard - Exeter SD 0707 - HERE
2P50 0725 Exeter SD - Plymouth 0831 - HERE
1A78 [0710 Penzance - Paddington] PLY 0908 - 0915 a. Pad 1229 - HERE

Additionally, on the way down, 1C36 2200 Paddington - Exeter SD drops off vehicles at Bristol TM, making it a 5 Car, Bristol TM - Exeter SD. (Just to clear that up in my own mind).

Very interesting 800002: thank you for that info. I hadn't yet looked through the ECS from Exeter New Yard so your reply is a big help.

One thought though in reply. As far as having 5C11 and 5C50 in the same siding is concerned that could be tricky. SWR are stabling 2x 3/159 at New Yard overnight which, on the morning of the timetable I am putting onto SimSig, work 1L20 (0510 Exeter SD - London Waterloo) and 1L22 (0530 Exeter St. Davids - London Waterloo, which is an extension of the current 1L22 that presently commences from Honiton). In addition to that I don't know the length of the sidings at New Yard but I am not sure that either would be long enough for 2x 5-car IETs at 130m each (260m total).

I will try to find out the length of the New Yard sidings: there is nothing (AFAICS) that gives any clues on that point.

Dave

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't mind a copy of that as I am currently working on a SimSig timetable for Exeter PSB which is based on the info currently available for 16th December 2019. It would be helpful to know what the planned stock formations are for the trains to Taunton, Paignton, Exeter, Paignton & Plymouth.

Dave

I think you can get some sort of idea on West Country trains from RTT by looking at the movements at Plymouth on 16 December. Does everything in the winter timetable run as 5-car beyond Plymouth?

At a guess it looks like:

Up direction attaches on

1A73 0458 Penzance to London Paddington (5A73 0600 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A76 0604 Penzance to London Paddington (5A76 0730 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A78 0710 Penzance to London Paddington (2P50 0725 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth)
1A80 0815 Penzance to London Paddington (5A80 0930 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A82 0915 Penzance to London Paddington (5A82 1030 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth detached from 1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance)
1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 7)
1A39 1745 Penzance to London Paddington (5 car throughout?)

and down direction detaches on

1C69 0637 London Paddington to Penzance (5 car throughout?)
1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth to attach to 1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C86 1504 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C86 1831 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C88 1604 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C88 1936 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C90 1704 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C90 2100 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C92 1804 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C92 2140 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)

 

[PHILIPE]

Very interesting 800002: thank you for that info. I hadn't yet looked through the ECS from Exeter New Yard so your reply is a big help.

One thought though in reply. As far as having 5C11 and 5C50 in the same siding is concerned that could be tricky. SWR are stabling 2x 3/159 at New Yard overnight which, on the morning of the timetable I am putting onto SimSig, work 1L20 (0510 Exeter SD - London Waterloo) and 1L22 (0530 Exeter St. Davids - London Waterloo, which is an extension of the current 1L22 that presently commences from Honiton). In addition to that I don't know the length of the sidings at New Yard but I am not sure that either would be long enough for 2x 5-car IETs at 130m each (260m total).

I will try to find out the length of the New Yard sidings: there is nothing (AFAICS) that gives any clues on that point.

Dave

There could be some tweaking yet as shunting moves can always be altered. I wouldn't take everything as gospel yet as the Timetable is not being released to journey Planning systems until the middle of September. There could still be some editing done yet, crossing the Ts and dotting the Is

 

[DaveHarries]

I think you can get some sort of idea on West Country trains from RTT by looking at the movements at Plymouth on 16 December. Does everything in the winter timetable run as 5-car beyond Plymouth?

At a guess it looks like:

Up direction attaches on

1A73 0458 Penzance to London Paddington (5A73 0600 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A76 0604 Penzance to London Paddington (5A76 0730 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A78 0710 Penzance to London Paddington (2P50 0725 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth)
1A80 0815 Penzance to London Paddington (5A80 0930 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A82 0915 Penzance to London Paddington (5A82 1030 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth detached from 1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance)
1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 7)
1A39 1745 Penzance to London Paddington (5 car throughout?)

and down direction detaches on

1C69 0637 London Paddington to Penzance (5 car throughout?)
1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth to attach to 1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C86 1504 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C86 1831 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C88 1604 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C88 1936 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C90 1704 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C90 2100 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C92 1804 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C92 2140 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)

Many thanks. I guess the Paignton workings are all 5-car? Platform 2 (the Exeter-bound one) isn't big enough for a 10-car set: it is about 51m too short.

Dave

 

[800002]

One thought though in reply. As far as having 5C11 and 5C50 in the same siding is concerned that could be tricky.

Sorry if I have confuddled you.

5C50 is the SX ECS working forming the Down service to Plymouth - 0725 2P50.
5C11 is the SO ECS working forming the Down service to Plymouth - 0725 2P11.
(I believe) there is only one class 80x planned to overnight in New Yard (as per info available from the Open Data Feeds.
The other GWR unit is the 2246 arrival ex-Penzance - Exeter SD, 2E28 a. onto New Yard as 5E28 2256. This unit, by the looks of it begins theday ex-Long Rock, 0620 5U12 forming the 0640, 2U12 Penzance - Cardiff Central.
It then starts New Yard as the 0426 5U02 to Taunton; 0515 2U02 Taunton - Cardiff Central; 0800 2C67 Cardiff Central - Penzance; 1350 2P17 Penzance - Plymouth; 1555 2C31 Plymouth - Penzance; 1850 2P27 Penzance - Plymouth; 2114 5P27 Plymouth - Laira.

I'm not certain what this formation is/ will be. 2+4 HST or 15x/16x DMU or 80x - someone else will certainly have a better idea.

 

[83G/84D]

I think you can get some sort of idea on West Country trains from RTT by looking at the movements at Plymouth on 16 December. Does everything in the winter timetable run as 5-car beyond Plymouth?

At a guess it looks like:

Up direction attaches on

1A73 0458 Penzance to London Paddington (5A73 0600 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A76 0604 Penzance to London Paddington (5A76 0730 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A78 0710 Penzance to London Paddington (2P50 0725 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth)
1A80 0815 Penzance to London Paddington (5A80 0930 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A82 0915 Penzance to London Paddington (5A82 1030 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Plymouth)
1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth detached from 1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance)
1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 5)
1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington (detached from 1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance - platform 7)
1A39 1745 Penzance to London Paddington (5 car throughout?)

and down direction detaches on

1C69 0637 London Paddington to Penzance (5 car throughout?)
1C72 0804 London Paddington to Penzance (5A84 1124 Plymouth to Plymouth to attach to 1A84 1015 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A88 1215 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C80 1204 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A92 1415 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C84 1404 London Paddington to Penzance (to attach to 1A96 1615 Penzance to London Paddington)
1C86 1504 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C86 1831 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C88 1604 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C88 1936 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C90 1704 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C90 2100 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)
1C92 1804 London Paddington to Penzance (rear forms 5C92 2140 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.)

I would be very surprised if this ends up as the final version of events. Given that the September to December diagrams have only just been released I can only think it will be a while before the final allocations / formations for the December "big change" are known.

 

[JonathanH]

I would be very surprised if this ends up as the final version of events. Given that the September to December diagrams have only just been released I can only think it will be a while before the final allocations / formations for the December "big change" are known.

Yes, that seems reasonable - plan it all around the capability of everything splitting / joining at Plymouth in the lowest part of the year, then have the flexibility for (some) 9-car operation when expected loadings dictate that (subject of course to the fact that Long Rock restrictions need 5-car operation).

 

[83G/84D]

Long Rock does have some 10 car sets overnight although capacity on the depot is limited. There are some speculative proposals to address this however nothing definite that I am aware of. In any case it would not be a quick fix.

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry if I have confuddled you.

5C50 is the SX ECS working forming the Down service to Plymouth - 0725 2P50.
5C11 is the SO ECS working forming the Down service to Plymouth - 0725 2P11.
(I believe) there is only one class 80x planned to overnight in New Yard (as per info available from the Open Data Feeds.
The other GWR unit is the 2246 arrival ex-Penzance - Exeter SD, 2E28 a. onto New Yard as 5E28 2256. This unit, by the looks of it begins theday ex-Long Rock, 0620 5U12 forming the 0640, 2U12 Penzance - Cardiff Central.
It then starts New Yard as the 0426 5U02 to Taunton; 0515 2U02 Taunton - Cardiff Central; 0800 2C67 Cardiff Central - Penzance; 1350 2P17 Penzance - Plymouth; 1555 2C31 Plymouth - Penzance; 1850 2P27 Penzance - Plymouth; 2114 5P27 Plymouth - Laira.

I'm not certain what this formation is/ will be. 2+4 HST or 15x/16x DMU or 80x - someone else will certainly have a better idea.

I think it will either be a 2+4 HST or a 2x2 158

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, that seems reasonable - plan it all around the capability of everything splitting / joining at Plymouth in the lowest part of the year, then have the flexibility for (some) 9-car operation when expected loadings dictate that (subject of course to the fact that Long Rock restrictions need 5-car operation).

No way will 1a84 be a 5 car through Cornwall. It's way too busy all year round.

 

[LordCreed]

No way will 1a84 be a 5 car through Cornwall. It's way too busy all year round.

The fact there's a 5A84 shunt at Plymouth would indeed indicate that it'll be a 5 attaching to another 5.

 

[800002]

The fact there's a 5A84 shunt at Plymouth would indeed indicate that it'll be a 5 attaching to another 5.

With an outside possibiliy that the unit forming 1A84 goes off of Laria a double unit (5C03 / 2C03 0714 Plymouth - Penzance) and removing the 5A84 shunt.

I don't think we'll know untill it happens.

 

[irish_rail]

With an outside possibiliy that the unit forming 1A84 goes off of Laria a double unit (5C03 / 2C03 0714 Plymouth - Penzance) and removing the 5A84 shunt.

I don't think we'll know untill it happens.

Well safe to say the current 1a85 (1000 pz to padd will not cope as a 5 car in Cornwall I can assure you of that. I have monitored this service regularly since Cornish half hourly came in and it always loads well over 300 by liskeard therefore guaranteeing standing passengers for over 20 minutes minimum. There will need to be a rethink on that service at least.

 

[CharlesR]

Well safe to say the current 1a85 (1000 pz to padd will not cope as a 5 car in Cornwall I can assure you of that. I have monitored this service regularly since Cornish half hourly came in and it always loads well over 300 by liskeard therefore guaranteeing standing passengers for over 20 minutes minimum. There will need to be a rethink on that service at least.

I am impressed that you managed to count 300 people on a packed service. Well done.

 

[irish_rail]

I am impressed that you managed to count 300 people on a packed service. Well done.

A little knowledge goes a long way. Maybe think about that before commenting sarcastically. On IETs there is passenger counting equipment so I can see how many are on board at the touch of a button. And there are almost always well over 300 after Liskeard .

 

[jimm]

Well safe to say the current 1a85 (1000 pz to padd will not cope as a 5 car in Cornwall I can assure you of that. I have monitored this service regularly since Cornish half hourly came in and it always loads well over 300 by liskeard therefore guaranteeing standing passengers for over 20 minutes minimum. There will need to be a rethink on that service at least.

A little knowledge goes a long way. Maybe think about that before commenting sarcastically. On IETs there is passenger counting equipment so I can see how many are on board at the touch of a button. And there are almost always well over 300 after Liskeard .

Which is it? Always or almost always?

So far you have been monitoring it during the busiest part of the year. I look forward to your reports on the loadings in November, December, January and February.

What does 'well over 300' mean, exactly? Is it 320 (within the seating capacity of a five-car GWR IET), around 350, or more than that?

I'm guessing that the average figure is not at the upper end of the range, otherwise you would doubtless be keen to shout it from the rooftops.

Either way, a nine-car or 10-car train on this service would be transporting acres of empty seats across Cornwall, even at the height of summer.

 

[irish_rail]

Which is it? Always or almost always?

So far you have been monitoring it during the busiest part of the year. I look forward to your reports on the loadings in November, December, January and February.

What does 'well over 300' mean, exactly? Is it 320 (within the seating capacity of a five-car GWR IET), around 350, or more than that?

I'm guessing that the average figure is not at the upper end of the range, otherwise you would doubtless be keen to shout it from the rooftops.

Either way, a nine-car or 10-car train on this service would be transporting acres of empty seats across Cornwall, even at the height of summer.

. I have been monitoring this train (as one of the few Plymouth drivers drive in cornwall) ever since IETs where first announced for the route. And it is busy ALL year round on a Monday and Friday, and from April to October it is busy daily. Yet I keep being told the 9 car sets will only be used in high summer of July and August, well that just won't cut it. Not to mention the fact most people using it have large luggage, even if it is loading to exactly 320, it will still be well in excess of capacity taking into account all of the luggage. This is not one of your peak time commuter Cotswold services where everyone knows what they are doing and has minimal luggage, it is a totally different beast. So until you have actually come down here and sampled 1a85 please don't comment.

 

[Wychwood93]

Is the 'passenger counting equipment' done by number of passengers by weight divided by an assumed no. of PAX (plus luggage) per tonne?

 

[CharlesR]

. I have been monitoring this train (as one of the few Plymouth drivers drive in cornwall) ever since IETs where first announced for the route. And it is busy ALL year round on a Monday and Friday, and from April to October it is busy daily. Yet I keep being told the 9 car sets will only be used in high summer of July and August, well that just won't cut it. Not to mention the fact most people using it have large luggage, even if it is loading to exactly 320, it will still be well in excess of capacity taking into account all of the luggage. This is not one of your peak time commuter Cotswold services where everyone knows what they are doing and has minimal luggage, it is a totally different beast. So until you have actually come down here and sampled 1a85 please don't comment.

Seated 326 in total. Standing and luggage is a completely separate matter.

I’m sure that GWR will be able to correctly plan which trains travel south in 5, 9 or 10 car formation.

 

[-Colly405-]

Deleted

 

[-Colly405-]

Which is it? Always or almost always?

So far you have been monitoring it during the busiest part of the year. I look forward to your reports on the loadings in November, December, January and February.

What does 'well over 300' mean, exactly? Is it 320 (within the seating capacity of a five-car GWR IET), around 350, or more than that?

I'm guessing that the average figure is not at the upper end of the range, otherwise you would doubtless be keen to shout it from the rooftops.

Either way, a nine-car or 10-car train on this service would be transporting acres of empty seats across Cornwall, even at the height of summer.

. I have been monitoring this train (as one of the few Plymouth drivers drive in cornwall) ever since IETs where first announced for the route. And it is busy ALL year round on a Monday and Friday, and from April to October it is busy daily. Yet I keep being told the 9 car sets will only be used in high summer of July and August, well that just won't cut it. Not to mention the fact most people using it have large luggage, even if it is loading to exactly 320, it will still be well in excess of capacity taking into account all of the luggage. This is not one of your peak time commuter Cotswold services where everyone knows what they are doing and has minimal luggage, it is a totally different beast. So until you have actually come down here and sampled 1a85 please don't comment.

This is getting boring between you two...

 

[jimm]

. I have been monitoring this train (as one of the few Plymouth drivers drive in cornwall) ever since IETs where first announced for the route. And it is busy ALL year round on a Monday and Friday, and from April to October it is busy daily. Yet I keep being told the 9 car sets will only be used in high summer of July and August, well that just won't cut it. Not to mention the fact most people using it have large luggage, even if it is loading to exactly 320, it will still be well in excess of capacity taking into account all of the luggage. This is not one of your peak time commuter Cotswold services where everyone knows what they are doing and has minimal luggage, it is a totally different beast. So until you have actually come down here and sampled 1a85 please don't comment.

You still haven't given any numbers when it comes to quantifying 'well over 300'.

I don't doubt that it is a busy train at this time of the year, it would be odd if it wasn't, but at no point have you provided any compelling evidence as to why this service should have 650 seats available through Cornwall - despite telling us you have been monitoring the number of people travelling on it for many months.

How hard is to get your story straight? When pressed on your claims, you now tell us it is only busy for much of the year on Mondays and Fridays.

How many people get off this train at Plymouth? Most of whom are unlikely to be travelling with luggage.

Why should I need to travel to Cornwall? You're the person on the spot, with access to the passenger counting system, so how about you provide some actual numbers for how many people are on board that train at various times of the year to back up your claims?

This is getting boring between you two...

I'm awfully sorry, but so long as irishrail continues to make claims without providing simple evidence to back them up, I will continue to ask for the evidence.

 

[irish_rail]

You still haven't given any numbers when it comes to quantifying 'well over 300'.

I don't doubt that it is a busy train at this time of the year, it would be odd if it wasn't, but at no point have you provided any compelling evidence as to why this service should have 650 seats available through Cornwall - despite telling us you have been monitoring the number of people travelling on it for many months.

How hard is to get your story straight? When pressed on your claims, you now tell us it is only busy for much of the year on Mondays and Fridays.

How many people get off this train at Plymouth? Most of whom are unlikely to be travelling with luggage.

Why should I need to travel to Cornwall? You're the person on the spot, with access to the passenger counting system, so how about you provide some actual numbers for how many people are on board that train at various times of the year to back up your claims?



I'm awfully sorry, but so long as irishrail continues to make claims without providing simple evidence to back them up, I will continue to ask for the evidence.

My job is to drive the train not record passenger loadings. I haven't yet had a day where I have had any less than 300 leaving liskeard that is all I can confirm. I don't remember specific numbers like 415 one day and 380 the next. The figure of 300 is very much the absolute minimum, it is usually closer to 400 or more. So if you want accurate figures I can't provide them.
And whilst it is true some get off at Plymouth, this will still equate to some passengers standing for more than 20 minutes which is what the dft tries to avoid.
And whilst it would rarely fill 650 seats , this goes to show the train lengths specified where all wrong. A mix of 5, 7, 8, 9 car sets would of made more sense if trying to match actual seating required for individual services.

 

[CharlesR]

Deleted

 

[LordCreed]

Is the 'passenger counting equipment' done by number of passengers by weight divided by an assumed no. of PAX (plus luggage) per tonne?

They work on sensors above the door. Unfortunately not the most reliable and I have known them to significantly overcount.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

"A mix of 5, 7, 8, 9 car sets would of made more sense if trying to match actual seating required for individual services."

This is highly undesirable from a planning or maintenance perspective. Lots of small fleets for dedicated work just ends up causing problems. You'd still get complaints, just the "it's 7 vice 9 / 5 vice 7" etc. Each mini fleet would also need it's own spares etc increasing depot space requirements. Not the greatest idea when you consider all the necessary factors, not just the one''s that suit your viewpoint.

 

[Clarence Yard]

All this argument about what the 1000 off Penzance currently loads really is futile. The service pattern from December 2019 is going to be different and deliberately so. Both the revenue and crowding models show a substantial shift between trains and if you look at the train times off Penzance, you can easily see why.

The current SX departures off Penzance to Plymouth are 0730 Local, 0741 London, 0837 XC, 0900 London, 0925 XC, 1000 London, 1017 Local, 1051 Local (connecting into Plymouth-London starter).

In December they should change to 0750 Local, 0815 London, 0837 XC, 0850 Local, 0915 London, 0925 XC, 0950 Local, 1015 London, 1050 Local (connecting into Plymouth-London starter).

Apart from the extra train, can you spot the difference? The local precedes the London train and that helps spread the load. Currently the 1000 carries quite a bit of traffic that should be on the 1017. That is showing to shift to the 0950.

There is another problem with the 1000. There is no 1100 and the connection off the 1050 is only 7 minutes at Plymouth. That means people are afraid to use it, in case it is late. It was suggested that GWR should ease that connection time and it will now be 1249-1313 at Plymouth, giving people ample time for a decent pit stop before getting on the London train. That will also help spread the load from the West.