SouthEastern & BTP crackdown on fare evasion.

Skimpot flyer · 16 Dec 2019

jon0844 said:
Ideally a barcode wouldn't work until validated, either by scanning it on the way in to a station or by a member of staff who reads it on a handheld reader.

The opportunities for fraud seem far greater with some of the new methods of ticketing, as there has to be better ways to monitor things to go with.

I was reading this thread whilst on a train, last week. I already had a valid ticket to my destination, which was seen and ‘gripped’ by an RPI during the journey.
Out of pure curiosity, about five minutes before the train was due to pass though the station closest to my destination, I went online and bought a ticket from ‘penultimate station’, to ‘destination station’, (a very cheap fare) and selected the e-ticket option.
(Please bear in mind that I did this purely to test Jon0844’s assertion, and for no other reason).
I am flabbergasted that these e-tickets do not have built-in safeguards, to prevent misuse. The ticket on my phone opened the barrier, even though it had not been scanned/used to enter ‘penultimate’ station, and despite the train I alighted from not having called there. I fully expected the gate to not open !! This was truly astonishing to me, as a person who always pays their fare and regularly sees tailgating in central London stations

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infobleep · 16 Dec 2019

Skimpot flyer said:
I was reading this thread whilst on a train, last week. I already had a valid ticket to my destination, which was seen and ‘gripped’ by an RPI during the journey.
Out of pure curiosity, about five minutes before the train was due to pass though the station closest to my destination, I went online and bought a ticket from ‘penultimate station’, to ‘destination station’, (a very cheap fare) and selected the e-ticket option.
(Please bear in mind that I did this purely to test Jon0844’s assertion, and for no other reason).
I am flabbergasted that these e-tickets do not have built-in safeguards, to prevent misuse. The ticket on my phone opened the barrier, even though it had not been scanned/used to enter ‘penultimate’ station, and despite the train I alighted from not having called there. I fully expected the gate to not open !! This was truly astonishing to me, as a person who always pays their fare and regularly sees tailgating in central London stations

I was on a train once and needed a ticket to start further along my journey. I unsuccessfully tried to buy an e-ticket for this to save having to get off the train. I couldn't as my destination was a Transport for London Station.

Thus I got out earlier and took a different route using the tube, to avoid having to wait for another train.

So I can see why people would want to buy a ticket on route. Clearly you couldn't do this in the past but then in the past the Internet didn't exist and now it does. So just because one couldn't do it, doesn't mean one shouldn't now or in the future.

infobleep · 17 Dec 2019

I don't know how many people might want to buy an e-ticket whilst on a train but I just tried to do this for a second time and failed to do so because one or both of the stations, which weren't TfL controlled, didn't support e-tickets.

This resulted in the TOCs losing money as I took a different route, for which I didn't need an additional ticket, as I already held one.

Geogregor · 17 Dec 2019

bussnapperwm said:
If that happened in the Civil Service they would lose hundred, if not thousands of their chaps!

being incompetent usually results in a shunt sideways or a promotion!

This is standard in most industries, companies, and organizations. Private or public, it doesn't really matter. Size has certain importance, the bigger organisation, the larger chance of being promoted or shunted sideways as there are more layers of "management".

RichardN · 17 Dec 2019

ComUtoR said:
You have to prove intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they do, then there is little chance of proving intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they haven't got any form of payment on them you can therefore prove they had an intent to avoid the fare and move to prosecution.

TVM machines break all the time, barriers fail, people forget railcards, cards get refused, people don't carry cash, people don't have cards etc etc. Even though it is strict liability, there are still rules and regulations to follow. The system allows people to board if they are unable to pay beforehand.

Why not send a guard/obs through the train offering to sell tickets but not otherwise checking them, then follow up immediately each coach is finished with a revenue check? No excuses then.

Metal_gee_man · 17 Dec 2019

RichardN said:
Why not send a guard/obs through the train offering to sell tickets but not otherwise checking them, then follow up immediately each coach is finished with a revenue check? No excuses then.

This works on older rolling stock, however this will not work on 700 & 701s, 710s, 720s & 730s because of the free flowing open nature of those carriages as a Revenue officer you couldn't follow someone down a train without the train going round a pretty sharp bend not to be seen in their high vis

nanstallon · 18 Dec 2019

Not condoning dishonesty but let's keep a sense of proportion and not turn the railway into a hostile environment. People do make mistakes, or manage time badly and rush onto a train thinking it's OK to pay at the other end - they are not thieves.

Clip · 18 Dec 2019

nanstallon said:
Not condoning dishonesty but let's keep a sense of proportion and not turn the railway into a hostile environment. People do make mistakes, or manage time badly and rush onto a train thinking it's OK to pay at the other end - they are not thieves.

People do but 8600 people in one month being cant all be 'forgetful' especially like somewhere in the south east where penalty fares and buy before you board has been a staple for 30 years.

hkstudent · 18 Dec 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
This works on older rolling stock, however this will not work on 700 & 701s, 710s, 720s & 730s because of the free flowing open nature of those carriages as a Revenue officer you couldn't follow someone down a train without the train going round a pretty sharp bend not to be seen in their high vis

What about two groups of officers to start from two ends of train and move towards the centre?

Antman · 18 Dec 2019

nanstallon said:
Not condoning dishonesty but let's keep a sense of proportion and not turn the railway into a hostile environment. People do make mistakes, or manage time badly and rush onto a train thinking it's OK to pay at the other end - they are not thieves.

I totally agree, I'm sure we've all travelled without the correct ticket or got on the wrong train at some point.

Metal_gee_man · 18 Dec 2019

hkstudent said:
What about two groups of officers to start from two ends of train and move towards the centre?

It's more the fact you can see there are revenue officers on board full stop, if they start the squeeze as you put it someone will if they have the means pay for the ticket from a guard, so all this idea will do is catch the ones who don't have the money and penalise them, rather than the chancers that can and havent.

Dougal2345 · 18 Dec 2019

I still like the £5 surcharge idea...

So if you don't buy a ticket before you board, you can buy it from the guard at no extra cost, no penalty. It's less convenient for you of course, as you'll be swaying around standing in a queue for 10 minutes as you wait for the guard to get to you, whereas if you'd bought before you boarded you could have sat down at once. So next time, you'll buy before you board.

But if you sit down without a ticket, you're liable to a £5 surcharge on top of the ticket cost if you're found. It's enough to make you think twice, but not enough to put your back up, make you aggressive or refuse to pay. Next time you won't try it and you'll buy before you board.

Oh and the surcharge can be waived at the guard's discretion, if the train is rammed or the person sitting down is evidently infirm etc..

Antman · 18 Dec 2019

Dougal2345 said:
I still like the £5 surcharge idea...

So if you don't buy a ticket before you board, you can buy it from the guard at no extra cost, no penalty. It's less convenient for you of course, as you'll be swaying around standing in a queue for 10 minutes as you wait for the guard to get to you, whereas if you'd bought before you boarded you could have sat down at once. So next time, you'll buy before you board.

But if you sit down without a ticket, you're liable to a £5 surcharge on top of the ticket cost if you're found. It's enough to make you think twice, but not enough to put your back up, make you aggressive or refuse to pay. Next time you won't try it and you'll buy before you board.

Oh and the surcharge can be waived at the guard's discretion, if the train is rammed or the person sitting down is evidently infirm etc..

Oh I think it's more than enough to make some people aggressive and refuse to pay, as with railcards they'll just say that if you can't sell me the ticket at the appropriate price they'll pay at their destination and the guard will have little choice but to back down.

Hadders · 18 Dec 2019

Dougal2345 said:
I still like the £5 surcharge idea...

So if you don't buy a ticket before you board, you can buy it from the guard at no extra cost, no penalty. It's less convenient for you of course, as you'll be swaying around standing in a queue for 10 minutes as you wait for the guard to get to you, whereas if you'd bought before you boarded you could have sat down at once. So next time, you'll buy before you board.

But if you sit down without a ticket, you're liable to a £5 surcharge on top of the ticket cost if you're found. It's enough to make you think twice, but not enough to put your back up, make you aggressive or refuse to pay. Next time you won't try it and you'll buy before you board.

Oh and the surcharge can be waived at the guard's discretion, if the train is rammed or the person sitting down is evidently infirm etc..

How does that work on a 12-car DOO service in the peaks?

Metal_gee_man · 18 Dec 2019

Hadders said:
How does that work on a 12-car DOO service in the peaks?

Or when the station they were travelling from has a faulty ticket machine or it only takes card!

Dougal2345 · 18 Dec 2019

Hadders said:
How does that work on a 12-car DOO service in the peaks?

Without wanting to seem brusque, it's pretty obviously not a suitable system for services without on board staff, peak or off peak.

Metal_gee_man said:
Or when the station they were travelling from has a faulty ticket machine or it only takes card!

I think it covers this situation perfectly, please re-read the post.

Wolfie · 23 Dec 2019

Aictos said:
I doubt that very much, he is just a highly paid civil servant who will just stay in his current job role and continue to perform badly unless he either quits or gets fired for being incompetent.

Not actually true. He is not a career civil servant but a direct political appointee from industry.

Aictos · 23 Dec 2019

Wolfie said:
Not actually true. He is not a career civil servant but a direct political appointee from industry.

Still needs to be fired regardless as all the issues facing the industry from the Southern Strikes etc can all be attributed to him and him alone so he should take responsibility and walk!

SouthEastern & BTP crackdown on fare evasion.

Skimpot flyer

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infobleep

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