Memories of Mk3 coaches & loco haulage on prime express routes

yorksrob said:

I get that things were tight -

But plastic orange seats ?

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Yes that was the case - I suppose it was designed to encourage people to return to their actual seats after eating their cheese sandwich out of a plastic container and downing their McEwans export and miniature whisky chaser!

yorksrob said:

I thought the Greater Anglia set interiors were extremely smart and pleasent to travel in after their last refurbishment.

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Jesus, those things had been refurbished?! At 6'6" I found the seats actually painful.

Mag_seven said:

Yes that was the case - I suppose it was designed to encourage people to return to their actual seats after eating their cheese sandwich out of a plastic container and downing their McEwans export and miniature whisky chaser!

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Yes, it doesn't sound particularly condusive to hanging around. I should imagine it would have made dealing with crumbs a lot easier as well.

aar0 said:

Jesus, those things had been refurbished?! At 6'6" I found the seats actually painful.

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Things had been begining to look a bit threadbare before then.

30907 said:

I think it applies to the whole Mk2 era: catering vehicles (as opposed to dining saloons) are expensive, and the Mk 1s were IIRC mostly built later on (pre-nationalisation cars having had 5 years in storage during ww2).
Apart from internal refreshing, the Mk 1s on CW or B5 bogies were fine for 100mph, which is all the Mk2a/c stock was allowed.
The move to using ordinary FOs for dining coincided with the introduction of aircon, which also reduced demand.

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True, presumably the reason the FO/TRUK/RFB to RFM conversions were later on rather than more than 28 Mk3a buffets being built from new was because speeds higher than 100mph weren't allowed until into the 1980s - 1984. Then the move to more fixed formations of all Mk2f and all Mk3 with push-pull operation was the other driving force.

Vehicles were also available for conversion rather than having to be built from scratch which made it more financially viable than new-build.

30907 said:

I think it applies to the whole Mk2 era: catering vehicles (as opposed to dining saloons) are expensive, and the Mk 1s were IIRC mostly built later on (pre-nationalisation cars having had 5 years in storage during ww2).
Apart from internal refreshing, the Mk 1s on CW or B5 bogies were fine for 100mph, which is all the Mk2a/c stock was allowed.
The move to using ordinary FOs for dining coincided with the introduction of aircon, which also reduced demand.

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The issue with the Mark 1 catering vehicles was that BR traditionally had a policy to cascade vehicles, but that didn't hold true with these specialist vehicles (same with Sleepers) so they remained in frontline service on InterCity services. In the mid-1970s the majority were not even 15 years old but had obviously been overtaken in terms of comfort. So many of the 16xx and 17xx series RBs were refurbished with the fixed plastic seats, new lowered ceilings with air-con Mark 2 style lighting units and new buffet counters. At the same time a number of 19xx RUs that had the same kitchens as the RBs but no buffets were refurbished in the same way and gained buffets, all refurbished vehicles becoming RBRs.

This was was probably considered satisfactory for diners to come and sit to consume meals before returning to their seats, with some FOs being used for first class dining.

(RB - Restaurant Buffet; RU - Restaurant Unclassified; RBR - Restaurant Buffet Refurbished)

hexagon789 said:

True, presumably the reason the FO/TRUK/RFB to RFM conversions were later on rather than more than 28 Mk3a buffets being built from new was because speeds higher than 100mph weren't allowed until into the 1980s - 1984. Then the move to more fixed formations of all Mk2f and all Mk3 with push-pull operation was the other driving force.

Vehicles were also available for conversion rather than having to be built from scratch which made it more financially viable than new-build.

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I think it was more that once the APT project was abandoned BR needed to modernise the WCML InterCity fleet. A standardised APT fleet for all services was gone and the hotch-potch of vehicles needed upgrading. Plus the looming need to withdraw asbestos fitted vehicles meant that many of the Mark 2 Pullmans and 17xx series RBRs (plus few remaining 15xx RKBs - Restaurant Kitchen Buffets) had to be replaced if costly asbestos removal wasn't to be undertaken.

BR had a surplus of FO vehicles in general, plus the majority of HST TRUKs were identified as being able to be replaced. So it was able to order 38 Mark 3B FOs (11064-11101) to replace the Mark 2 Pullmans and some Mark 3A FOs with an expansion of Pullman services; plus 19 Mark 3 TS vehicles (42323-42341) to replace the TRUKs in Eastern Region HSTs.

The plan was to standardise WCML catering vehicles around one type utilising modular catering. TRUKs 40519 and 40520 were converted as prototype RSMs (Restaurant Standard Modular) 10200 and 10201. I believe these originally had 24 low backed seats and were clearly intended to be used only for someone to eat and return to their seat but were quickly replaced with IC70 first class style seating. The production conversions were RFMs (Restaurant First Modular) with 10202-10211 converted from TRUKs, 10212-10229 converted from FOs and 10230-10230 converted from the Mark 3A RFBs (10001-10028) that were effectively loco-hauled versions of the 403xx TRUBs (later 407xx TRFBs). 10200 and 10201 were later reclassified as RFMs but had a different diagram code to the production conversions so must have had some differences still.

The plan was to have 61 coaches, but I think the Colwich accident saw that reduced that to 58 due to two Mark 3A and two Mark 2F FOs being written off. A couple of Platform 5 books did show 64 planned conversions but that seems very high.

Helvellyn said:

BR had a surplus of FO vehicles in general, plus the majority of HST TRUKs were identified as being able to be replaced. So it was able to order 38 Mark 3B FOs (11064-11101) to replace the Mark 2 Pullmans and some Mark 3A FOs with an expansion of Pullman services; plus 19 Mark 3 TS vehicles (42323-42341) to replace the TRUKs in Eastern Region HSTs.

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The authorisation from the DoT was for 60 vehicles: the other three were the three BFOs (17173-175). The 19 HST TS vehicles were not just to replace the TRUKs (excepting the two Pullman sets) but also to standardise East Coast and MML formations at 8-car sets after the transfer of WR 7-car sets in 1982/83.

10200 and 10201 were later reclassified as RFMs but had a different diagram code to the production conversions so must have had some differences still.

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There were some detailed differences between them and the production vehicles. I had an (authorised) look at 10201 shortly before it went for scrap and there were internal equipment layout differences.

yorksrob said:

I get that things were tight -

But plastic orange seats ?

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Orange was very fashionable.

We painted our bathroom orange once.

Once.

I used to travel regularly from Bristol to Bolton on the Virgin XC Plymouth to Edinburgh "Express" on a Friday evening. I think we're talking about 1999 - 2001.

As I recall it was normally one or two First coaches and a few more standard class Mk3s. It was hauled by a diesel loco of some description - sorry, not a spotter or basher! I used to travel in 1st class - sometimes it was at the back, sometime it was right behind the loco.

The attendants never used to be particularly fussy about how much wine they served and it was a pleasant way to spend 4 hours getting ever more woozy whilst listening to the very frequent noise of the loco on full throttle leaving a station. I remember one summer journey when the aircon and power was out in the 1st coach. We were asked if we wanted to move but I stayed to enjoy the peace and quiet of a rather warm coach - and as the buffet was in the coach, the very frequent attentions of the host too.

From what I gather, today's journey would be far less pleasant and so much more crowded.

6Gman said:

Orange was very fashionable.

We painted our bathroom orange once.

Once.

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I'm more of an avocado man myself

ChiefPlanner said:

Somone described the paradox of MK3 and MK2 coaches in front line service on the WCML - which had a MK 1 BG coach and a MK 1 RMB , - "very 1970's" - with hard plastic orange bucket seats and usually open vent windows through which a gale howled on hot days , as you enjoyed your can of McEwans and a pork pie or Lyons "apple" pie.

Then you went back to your nice air con vehicle.

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Plastic seats only next to the buffet counter. Diners were in 2+1 first class kitchen cars

WesternLancer said:

Maybe, but what did the Romans ever do for us?

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Love it

EssexGonzo said:

I used to travel regularly from Bristol to Bolton on the Virgin XC Plymouth to Edinburgh "Express" on a Friday evening. I think we're talking about 1999 - 2001.

As I recall it was normally one or two First coaches and a few more standard class Mk3s. It was hauled by a diesel loco of some description - sorry, not a spotter or basher! I used to travel in 1st class - sometimes it was at the back, sometime it was right behind the loco.

The attendants never used to be particularly fussy about how much wine they served and it was a pleasant way to spend 4 hours getting ever more woozy whilst listening to the very frequent noise of the loco on full throttle leaving a station. I remember one summer journey when the aircon and power was out in the 1st coach. We were asked if we wanted to move but I stayed to enjoy the peace and quiet of a rather warm coach - and as the buffet was in the coach, the very frequent attentions of the host too.

From what I gather, today's journey would be far less pleasant and so much more crowded.

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Sounds like MK2s on XC service , did the HSTs go via Bolton to?

Dr Hoo said:

The 'seat rot' set in with the Mark IIf IIRC, with their horrible, elbow-numbing, fixed rubber central armrests.

The earlier designs of Mark II had the 'wing headrest' seats, which weren't everyone's favourite as it seemed hard to snooze in them but at least you could squeeze past the table relatively easily.

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Those damn armrests... I've lost count how many times I'd bruised my thigh on them. I recall travelling on an overnight service from Glasgow - Bristol, in seats like those.

EssexGonzo said:

I used to travel regularly from Bristol to Bolton on the Virgin XC Plymouth to Edinburgh "Express" on a Friday evening. I think we're talking about 1999 - 2001.

As I recall it was normally one or two First coaches and a few more standard class Mk3s. It was hauled by a diesel loco of some description - sorry, not a spotter or basher! I used to travel in 1st class - sometimes it was at the back, sometime it was right behind the loco.

The attendants never used to be particularly fussy about how much wine they served and it was a pleasant way to spend 4 hours getting ever more woozy whilst listening to the very frequent noise of the loco on full throttle leaving a station. I remember one summer journey when the aircon and power was out in the 1st coach. We were asked if we wanted to move but I stayed to enjoy the peace and quiet of a rather warm coach - and as the buffet was in the coach, the very frequent attentions of the host too.

From what I gather, today's journey would be far less pleasant and so much more crowded.

Click to expand...

I’m going to go out on a limb here, but if you were on a Mark III coach from Plymouth to Bolton, it could only be an HST.

EssexGonzo said:

I used to travel regularly from Bristol to Bolton on the Virgin XC Plymouth to Edinburgh "Express" on a Friday evening. I think we're talking about 1999 - 2001.

As I recall it was normally one or two First coaches and a few more standard class Mk3s. It was hauled by a diesel loco of some description - sorry, not a spotter or basher! I used to travel in 1st class - sometimes it was at the back, sometime it was right behind the loco.

The attendants never used to be particularly fussy about how much wine they served and it was a pleasant way to spend 4 hours getting ever more woozy whilst listening to the very frequent noise of the loco on full throttle leaving a station. I remember one summer journey when the aircon and power was out in the 1st coach. We were asked if we wanted to move but I stayed to enjoy the peace and quiet of a rather warm coach - and as the buffet was in the coach, the very frequent attentions of the host too.

From what I gather, today's journey would be far less pleasant and so much more crowded.

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Bald Rick said:

I’m going to go out on a limb here, but if you were on a Mark III coach from Plymouth to Bolton, it could only be an HST.

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Definitely MK2. The only Mk3's XC had were HSTs. At the time I was at university in Bristol, and as far as I knew XC was exclusively HST. I was absolutely delighted once when a class 47 and rake of Mk2s pulled in for one of my visits back home to Durham.
I know every races about the Mk3, but I've always had a soft spot for Mk2s.

trebor79 said:

Definitely MK2. The only Mk3's XC had were HSTs. At the time I was at university in Bristol, and as far as I knew XC was exclusively HST. I was absolutely delighted once when a class 47 and rake of Mk2s pulled in for one of my visits back home to Durham.
I know every races about the Mk3, but I've always had a soft spot for Mk2s.

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My point was that if it was a MkIII, it must have been an HST.
I do think, though, that it is more likely to have been a MkII, loco hauled. Certainly my memory of the Scotland via Manchester trains is that they were all MkIIs.

Bald Rick said:

My point was that if it was a MkIII, it must have been an HST.
I do think, though, that it is more likely to have been a MkII, loco hauled. Certainly my memory of the Scotland via Manchester trains is that they were all MkIIs.

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Maybe that's why I only ever had a MK2 once in the Bristol to Durham trip, maybe substituting for and HST for whatever reason. The train went via Birmingham, never Manchester.

Mag_seven said:

Yes that was the case - I suppose it was designed to encourage people to return to their actual seats after eating their cheese sandwich out of a plastic container and downing their McEwans export and miniature whisky chaser!

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Normally would return, but remember overcrowded trains on friday evening from Euston with first stop Rugby these would be the only available seats. Floor or a bucket seat with table for an hour.

Bald Rick said:

My point was that if it was a MkIII, it must have been an HST.
I do think, though, that it is more likely to have been a MkII, loco hauled. Certainly my memory of the Scotland via Manchester trains is that they were all MkIIs.

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The Devon Scot went to Aberdeen via the West Coast in Virgin XC days and was booked for a HST. For a few timetable periods it was diverted via Manchester.

The Wessex Scot also went West Coast and was a HST.

trebor79 said:

Maybe that's why I only ever had a MK2 once in the Bristol to Durham trip, maybe substituting for and HST for whatever reason. The train went via Birmingham, never Manchester.

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There were a small number of Virgin Crosscountry services to Newcastle that were booked for class 47 hauled mark 2s, though as noted above most of the XC mark 2 rakes were focused on the Manchester and Scotland services via the West Coast. The last booked Virgin XC class 47 hauled working to Newcastle was in fact a service from Bristol that arrived at its destination mid to late afternoon, before departing for Birmingham just before 6pm. It operated until July 2002.

sprinterguy said:

There were a small number of Virgin Crosscountry services to Newcastle that were booked for class 47 hauled mark 2s, though as noted above most of the XC mark 2 rakes were focused on the Manchester and Scotland services via the West Coast. The last booked Virgin XC class 47 hauled working to Newcastle was in fact a service from Bristol that arrived at its destination mid to late afternoon, before departing for Birmingham just before 6pm. It operated until July 2002.

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During the period when the CrossCountry Class 47 fleet became extremely unreliable, a standby loco was on hand at Tyne Yard, most of the time it was a Class 37

Whistler40145 said:

During the period when the CrossCountry Class 47 fleet became extremely unreliable, a standby loco was on hand at Tyne Yard, most of the time it was a Class 37

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Pity I never witnessed the standby loco being brought into use, if ever it was: Just the sight Virgin's own 47s at Newcastle seemed pretty novel to me at the time. I remember being pleasantly surprised to see Fragonset's 47488 roll in from the High Level bridge in two-tone green livery ready to head south again with a late running Crosscountry service on one occasion circa 1999/2000. Said loco was a fairly regular performer for Virgin XC at the time I'm led to believe.

To add my reminisces to the accounts here and return the topic to mark 3s, on summer Saturdays in most years, there was also a class 47 hauled Virgin XC working that took a full West Coast mark 3 rake from Newcastle to (I think) Paignton. There was a comparable working from Manchester that took a similar set to Paignton and back. I recall boarding one of the former workings at Newcastle, complete with mark 3 DVT tucked in behind the loco to provide valuable luggage storage, for the short trip to Durham and the class 47 at the head chucking clag sky high as it rounded the bends ahead of us en route.

sprinterguy said:

Pity I never witnessed the standby loco being brought into use, if ever it was: Just the sight Virgin's own 47s at Newcastle seemed pretty novel to me at the time. I remember being pleasantly surprised to see Fragonset's 47488 roll in from the High Level bridge in two-tone green livery ready to head south again with a late running Crosscountry service on one occasion circa 1999/2000. Said loco was a fairly regular performer for Virgin XC at the time I'm led to believe.

To add my reminisces to the accounts here and return the topic to mark 3s, on summer Saturdays in most years, there was also a class 47 hauled Virgin XC working that took a full West Coast mark 3 rake from Newcastle to (I think) Paignton. There was a comparable working from Manchester that took a similar set to Paignton and back. I recall boarding one of the former workings at Newcastle, complete with mark 3 DVT tucked in behind the loco to provide valuable luggage storage, for the short trip to Durham and the class 47 at the head chucking clag sky high as it rounded the bends ahead of us en route.

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Certainly when I started going to Exeter st David’s on my own in 1986 there were mk3 sets going to Paignton on summer Saturdays behind pairs of 31/4s and occasionally the odd Peak that had slipped through the Iron Curtain (Bristol TM).
We even had the named Pullman mk3s coming through and as I started bashing I had plenty of runs in them including when they started coming down with the DVT still attached. Great times I must say.

yorksrob said:

I'm more of an avocado man myself

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Love a nice avocado bathroom suite.

Cowley said:

Certainly when I started going to Exeter st David’s on my own in 1986 there were mk3 sets going to Paignton on summer Saturdays behind pairs of 31/4s and occasionally the odd Peak that had slipped through the Iron Curtain (Bristol TM).
We even had the named Pullman mk3s coming through and as I started bashing I had plenty of runs in them including when they started coming down with the DVT still attached. Great times I must say.

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Use of the Pullman sets was a regular booked thing, certainly in 1986. For the summer you had the following set utilisation on Saturdays:

WB300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

1V47 2326 FO Manchester Piccadilly-Paignton
1M37 0820 SO Paignton-Manchester Piccadilly

WB302 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

5V36 0635 SO Euston DCS-Milton Keynes
1V36 0715 SO Milton Keynes-Penzance
1M82 1540 SO Penzance-Milton Keynes
5M82 2234 SO Milton Keynes-Euston DCS

MA300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

5F49 0700 SO Longsight CS-Liverpool LS
1V49 0840 SO Liverpool LS-Paignton
1M65 1625 SO Paignton-Liverpool LS
5H47 2230 SO Liverpool LS-Longsight CS

Sad Sprinter said:

How sad, the last truly proper trains on the British railway network-apart from the remaining 125s. Glad that I had few runs on them and did London to Norwich and back two years ago and London to Ipswich late last year. They were tired out, but on a MK3, you always felt that you were really "going somewhere".

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I disagree completely with these ideas that (a) the Mark 3s were particularly amazing in the first place and (b) have never been bettered.

Sure, they were great when they were new, but better vehicles have appeared regularly since, and many of the design decisions taken - particularly doors and those infernal squeaking gangways - have caused a lot of trouble.

The things are now also extremely unreliable and difficult to operate. I worked for a TOC with a big Mark 3 fleet a few years ago, and keeping enough vehicles in service was a constant battle. They're full of obsolete and temperamental electronics with very limited supplies of spares.

I honestly won't miss them. The idea that replacements aren't "proper" trains because there's no loco involved is just enthusiast wibble - the normals don't care.

Helvellyn said:

The issue with the Mark 1 catering vehicles was that BR traditionally had a policy to cascade vehicles, but that didn't hold true with these specialist vehicles (same with Sleepers) so they remained in frontline service on InterCity services. In the mid-1970s the majority were not even 15 years old but had obviously been overtaken in terms of comfort. So many of the 16xx and 17xx series RBs were refurbished with the fixed plastic seats, new lowered ceilings with air-con Mark 2 style lighting units and new buffet counters. At the same time a number of 19xx RUs that had the same kitchens as the RBs but no buffets were refurbished in the same way and gained buffets, all refurbished vehicles becoming RBRs.

This was was probably considered satisfactory for diners to come and sit to consume meals before returning to their seats, with some FOs being used for first class dining.

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I can certainly understand it being more cost effective but it still gives you that contrast of Mk1 and Mk3 vehicle profiles and levels of comfort for many years. Not a bad thing as such, but it's one of those things that makes trains more interesting - the contrasts and the unusual

Helvellyn said:

I think it was more that once the APT project was abandoned BR needed to modernise the WCML InterCity fleet. A standardised APT fleet for all services was gone and the hotch-potch of vehicles needed upgrading. Plus the looming need to withdraw asbestos fitted vehicles meant that many of the Mark 2 Pullmans and 17xx series RBRs (plus few remaining 15xx RKBs - Restaurant Kitchen Buffets) had to be replaced if costly asbestos removal wasn't to be undertaken.

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So as desire to move to a more modern, standard fleet of catering vehicles but with the bonus of being able to convert rather than built from new.

How often did the ScotRail Mark 3 push pull sets visit Oban behind a Deltic?

Whistler40145 said:

How often did the ScotRail Mark 3 push pull sets visit Oban behind a Deltic?

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Just two Sundays in 1981 afaik. 37/4s were used a few times in the ScotRail Express era though

Journeyman said:

I honestly won't miss them. The idea that replacements aren't "proper" trains because there's no loco involved is just enthusiast wibble - the normals don't care.

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And the train that is to the punters the most like a Mk1 that we've had in many years (lots of tables and seats fully aligned to windows) is the Class 397 EMU.