British railways seat legroom.

devon_metro · 3 Sep 2010

The distance between seats on it`s own is a completely irrelevant piece of data since the length of the bottom part of the seat has a lot to do with things. Not to mention the pitch and various other rubbish like that.

(note i`ve purposefully used the wrong apostrophe symbol - it seems to give more 'legroom' between letters, perhaps thats why Mr Smith likes using it so much)

RailUK Forums

rail-britain · 3 Sep 2010

For collating the data, I would suggest you publish the main intercity routes first
You can then monitor how popular each page is
I would put that in place for Summer 2011
Throughout the end of next year you could then expand into more local services, the interurban rolling stock being most beneficial

In terms of airline seat pitch data and interest, most people who enquire about this are typically flying for at least four hours
I would therefore use the same criteria for railway journeys and their relevant rolling stock

Skimble19 · 4 Sep 2010

Justin, to make sure your research is as effective as possible you must make sure you go around and survey every single unit and coach on the network, and for the sake of it, why not include heritage railways too!

That should keep him busy and unable to moan (sorry, post) on here for a while..! :lol:

Justin Smith · 4 Sep 2010

ralphchadkirk said:
Nope, I'm 6ft (last time I measured - which was a while ago).

How long are your legs.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Geezertronic said:
So one of your prime motives for doing this is hits for your website?

I think you're misreading my posts.
I'd rather this forum put the info on, at least it's rail related.
But if they don't want to then I'll put it on my own site.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Invincibles said:
As an aside I hate it when the person in front reclines their seat on aeroplanes and crushes the drinks can on my table.

I hate it too and so does my wife. It's particularly ignorant for passengers to fully recline their seats before they turn off the cabin lights. I've "had words" with people over this very thing, and I'd rather not do.
Interestingly I've been involved with this very discussion on other forums and as usual you get some people arguing that they're not bothered about it (who are these people ? There must be a lot of agoraphobic dwarves on forums) but the proof is that Cathay Pacific have started installing Economy class seats that recline within their own shell so the seat backs do not end up in the face of the unfortunate passenger behind.....
Is it significant that an airline seems bothered about the comfort of its (Economy class) passengers when the trend is for train companies not to be ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BrummyBoy said:
im not reali intrested in justins research but would like to know the outcomes as i am 6ft 4 (so i know weather to get a table seat or not)

Isn't that a contradiction in terms ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

devon_metro said:
The distance between seats on it's own is a completely irrelevant piece of data

No it isn't. I find that the trains with the greatest distance between my knees and the seat in front are the least cramped, surprisingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

rail-britain said:
For collating the data, I would suggest you publish the main intercity routes first
You can then monitor how popular each page is
I would put that in place for Summer 2011
Throughout the end of next year you could then expand into more local services, the interurban rolling stock being most beneficial

In terms of airline seat pitch data and interest, most people who enquire about this are typically flying for at least four hours
I would therefore use the same criteria for railway journeys and their relevant rolling stock

Basically the restricting factor will be actually getting the data, so I'll put the data on as I get it !

rail-britain · 4 Sep 2010

Justin Smith said:
Basically the restricting factor will be actually getting the data, so I'll put the data on as I get it !

It depends on what method you are using
If you are simply collecting this data from real measurements then it requires travel on each type of rolling stock for the relevant TOC
That could be expensive in terms of travelling costs

You could make arrangements with each TOC to either supply the data direct or to give you access to specific trains under supervision

Finally, publishing the information may require permission from some TOCs, I can see London Midland refusing plus also taking action against you if you publish any such information about their trains
They were not very cooperative with any mention of even just their services on my website, never mind taking photographs

Geezertronic · 4 Sep 2010

Justin Smith said:
There must be a lot of agoraphobic dwarves on forums) ...

So anyone who disagrees with your point of view on legroom is now an agoraphobic dwarf?

You really don't do yourself any favours with comments like that do you...

Some might say that there is one lanky lurch being a bit of an idiot on forums who totally disregards other point of views with stupid comments about agoraphobic dwarves...

Abuse of bold intended...

rail-britain · 4 Sep 2010

Geezertronic said:
So anyone who disagrees with your point of view on legroom is now an agoraphobic dwarf

That will be 99.99% of the UK population then...

Oswyntail · 4 Sep 2010

The comfort of seats is incredibly individual, especially concerning "legroom". I am 5' 11", but have ridiculously short legs - 29"; I am also "broad". So, for me, seat comfort requires back support and adequate shoulder width rather than, necessarily, space in front. However, the ratio between my upper and lower leg means that the height of the seat can be critical - the more horizontal my upper leg, the more space I like. Despite all this, I am no freak, and everyone will have individual factors like this - a lady of 6'6" may have plenty of space and be comfortable in a seat that a man of 5'2" finds impossible. Designers have to find a compromise.

doramider7 · 4 Sep 2010

WillPS said:
Oh for God's sake.

Have I missed the religious connection?

rail-britain · 4 Sep 2010

doramider7 said:
Have I missed the religious connection?

That's also what I asked!?!

Justin Smith · 4 Sep 2010

rail-britain said:
It depends on what method you are using
If you are simply collecting this data from real measurements then it requires travel on each type of rolling stock for the relevant TOC
That could be expensive in terms of travelling costs

You could make arrangements with each TOC to either supply the data direct or to give you access to specific trains under supervision

Finally, publishing the information may require permission from some TOCs, I can see London Midland refusing plus also taking action against you if you publish any such information about their trains
They were not very cooperative with any mention of even just their services on my website, never mind taking photographs

I'm hoping that some people supply me with the data, if not it'll be as and when I get to travel on the particular trains. My natural impatience will kick in here but I'll try to resist it, after all this data hasn't been available for ever so what difference does a few months make !
I don't see how LM, or anyone else can stop me publishing the data, if they try I'll see them in court. Of course they'd never do that anyway because the publicity would be worth going to court for on its own, it'd almost certainly be picked up by the papers "Train company tries to stop you finding out how much legroom they're prepared to give you" etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Geezertronic said:
So anyone who disagrees with your point of view on legroom is now an agoraphobic dwarf?

You really don't do yourself any favours with comments like that do you...

Some might say that there is one lanky lurch being a bit of an idiot on forums who totally disregards other point of views with stupid comments about agoraphobic dwarves...

Abuse of bold intended...

Where's your sense of humour ? Quite apart from anything I'm actually talking about seat recliners on planes, and not calling anyone (personally) that anyway.
I do wonder who all those people are who maintain that they don't have a problem with other passengers reclining their seats right into their faces. I've never, never, met anyone who likes it, why would they ? ! ?
Unless of course they actually are an agarophobic dwarf.
More likely they were just arguing for the sake of it.

Geezertronic · 4 Sep 2010

Justin Smith said:
Where's your sense of humour ?

It tends to disappear when I read your posts. Considering you have called the XC HST refurb designer a t****r, train designers arrogant gits, wondered whether the 390s have actually killed people who don't travel on them and go by car instead, called anyone who disagrees about legroom an agarophobic dwarf, and generally made sarcastic sounding comments when anyone disagrees with your point of view (390 window thread a good example)... I don't have the keyboard breath to continue...

Justin Smith said:
More likely they were just arguing for the sake of it.

Pot kettle springs to mind...

Justin Smith · 4 Sep 2010

Geezertronic said:
Pot kettle springs to mind...

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just started this thread to see if I could get any help in compiling some data. What I don't understand is why you're so concerned about the possibility that the Great British public out there might have access to information telling them which trains have more leg room in them.......
And how can saying people like more room and don't like seats reclined into their faces be arguing for the sake of it ? They're both "motherhood and apple pie" arguments. I'd have thought anyone taking the opposite views would arguing for the sake of it

rail-britain · 4 Sep 2010

Justin Smith said:
I don't see how LM, or anyone else can stop me publishing the data, if they try I'll see them in court

I have contacts at all the TOCs for publication purposes, as my website is classified as a commercial concern
Some TOCs are very accomodating and respond either same business day or next business day
Other TOCs pass the buck around between people, but eventually you get there!
You then run into those that point blank refuse to cooperate
However, London Midland is the only one to not only refuse, but to also intimate they will take action in the event that such material is found and/or published
My solicitor I agreed that even using their trading name could be considered for legal action by them
Hence why when you look at my website I do not provide any comments or information on their services

Response from London Midland 17 June 2009 :
You're more than welcome to use our services
You many not report on them
We don't allow commercial filming or photography on our trains as it generally is disruptive for the rest of our passengers and can raise health and safety issues
Our staff will stop you if they find you filming
Our legal department will be informed if we find a published report on our services so that we may take the appropriate action to have this removed

Response from Virgin Trains 23 June 2009 :
You will find details of our services on our website or by visiting one of our station
I have two contacts at Virgin Trains, but even after sending in my request in writing as they required I have never had a written reply or response

Response from First Great Western :
This all arrives by post, twice a year as and when required

Response from First Capital Connect :
Information declined due to Security and Safety Policy

Response from First ScotRail :
Information declined due to Security and Safety Policy
However, this all arrives by post, contradicting the above

Response from Cross Country :
All sent by email, as and when required

Response from Arriva Trains Wales :
All sent by email, including originals of all images used on their website and publications

Justin Smith · 4 Sep 2010

rail-britain said:
I have contacts at all the TOCs for publication purposes, as my website is classified as a commercial concern
Some TOCs are very accomodating and respond either same business day or next business day
Other TOCs pass the buck around between people, but eventually you get there!
You then run into those that point blank refuse to cooperate
However, London Midland is the only one to not only refuse, but to also intimate they will take action in the event that such material is found and/or published
My solicitor I agreed that even using their trading name could be considered for legal action by them
Hence why when you look at my website I do not provide any comments or information on their services

Response from London Midland 17 June 2009 :
You're more than welcome to use our services
You many not report on them
We don't allow commercial filming or photography on our trains as it generally is disruptive for the rest of our passengers and can raise health and safety issues
Our staff will stop you if they find you filming
Our legal department will be informed if we find a published report on our services so that we may take the appropriate action to have this removed

Response from Virgin Trains 23 June 2009 :
You will find details of our services on our website or by visiting one of our station
I have two contacts at Virgin Trains, but even after sending in my request in writing as they required I have never had a written reply or response

Response from First Great Western :
This all arrives by post, twice a year as and when required

Response from First Capital Connect :
Information declined due to Security and Safety Policy

Response from First ScotRail :
Information declined due to Security and Safety Policy
However, this all arrives by post, contradicting the above

Response from Cross Country :
All sent by email, as and when required

Response from Arriva Trains Wales :
All sent by email, including originals of all images used on their website and publications

I think we can draw our own conclusions about London Midand, Virgin and First Capital Connect. On the subject of which Thameslink was a better name, and should never have been changed.
I look forward to the threats LM may send me, can I call them t*****s, or will Geezertronic object ?

jon0844 · 4 Sep 2010

Justin, when you've set up your website that shows the seating arrangement, sizes and other useful stuff like window views etc - can you please tell me how you're going to let people know what train they're actually going to get on when they travel?

Will Joe Public be carrying a printed guide (hint: make this a book!) or referring before booking? When they see that a seat has 1cm less legroom, they can then book a far more expensive ticket with another TOC instead.

I think you're going to be rich with this idea. Get along to a bank now and borrow as much money as possible for your 'train guru' book. Do it NOW!

Lampshade · 4 Sep 2010

I can't be the first to think this:

Who the hell cares? :?

Different refurbs by different companies to different specifications have different legroom even on the same class of train. One example I can think of is the ex-TPE 158s with SWT/FGW have fantastic legroom (always travel in the centre car on a 3 car Northern 158), yet the 1589xx (the Trainbaby family) with Northern have absolutely abysmal legroom, 158903 still remains the only other train after a Merseyrail Pacer where my knees were wedged up against the seat in front. For 158s are you going to compare every single different refurb? I can think of at least six different refurb specifications.

Justin Smith · 4 Sep 2010

91107 said:
I can't be the first to think this:
Different refurbs by different companies to different specifications have different legroom even on the same class of train. One example I can think of is the ex-TPE 158s with SWT/FGW have fantastic legroom, yet the 1589xx (the Trainbaby family) with Northern have absolutely abysmal legroom, 158903 still remains the only other train after a Merseyrail Pacer where my knees were wedged up against the seat in front. For 158s are you going to compare every single different refurb? I can think of at least six different refurb specifications.

It`s early days but I already see at least one trend. Is it pure fluke that the priority seats on three different classes of train owned by two different companies all have 32" of leg room, which I was quite happy with by the way. Not so sure about 26", and even 27" is a bit stingy for an Inter City train. I`d love to know what it was before the Mallard refurb.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

jonmorris0844 said:
Justin, when you've set up your website that shows the seating arrangement, sizes and other useful stuff like window views etc - can you please tell me how you're going to let people know what train they're actually going to get on when they travel?

Will Joe Public be carrying a printed guide (hint: make this a book!) or referring before booking? When they see that a seat has 1cm less legroom, they can then book a far more expensive ticket with another TOC instead.

I think you're going to be rich with this idea. Get along to a bank now and borrow as much money as possible for your 'train guru' book. Do it NOW!

People do still buy books, even when the info is on the Internet. Surprising as it may seem we`ve had more than one person asking us if we do a book (of what we`ve got on the website).

rosscbrown · 4 Sep 2010

I'm something of a data geek so the idea of collating all this data and making a nice information product out of is sounds great.

However, the actual value of the information to me is very limited.

For the journey I make I have to choose between one operator and one class of train. I can't decide that I hate the seating on the fTPE and jump on, say, a Virgin service to my destination.

I, unfortunately, do not have an number of operators and train classes to choose from so things like legroom and other secondary characteristics of train travel don't come into my purchasing decision. It is a case of is there is train that will get me to my destination at or before the time I need to be there. If yes, proceed to train station. If no, try the bus station.

Whereas with air-travel there seems to be more competition on the routes I travel so then I start comparing price, legroom, entertainment, food etc.

Just my two cents.

jon0844 · 4 Sep 2010

That's why there are many sites for airlines and none for trains. Although we have a privatised railway that should, in theory, allow everyone to have a choice - the fact is, most people DON'T have a choice. And those that do are probably still thinking in terms of going from A to B and not really considering the TOC - let alone the type of train they'll get.

And if you write this book that one person will buy, will you give a refund to people who thought they were going to get a certain train with a certain seat type, and then get something totally different?

WillPS · 4 Sep 2010

Political correctness gone mad!

Lampshade · 4 Sep 2010

It would need updating after every refurb - which is always happening.

Skimble19 · 4 Sep 2010

Its threads like this where swearing could come in handy... although no doubt Justin would use it in another one of his compulsorily bold insults..

Oh, and Justin, so you think the GN route of FCC should be called Thameslink? Yeah, good luck with that..

Justin Smith · 5 Sep 2010

jonmorris0844 said:
That's why there are many sites for airlines and none for trains. Although we have a privatised railway that should, in theory, allow everyone to have a choice - the fact is, most people DON'T have a choice. And those that do are probably still thinking in terms of going from A to B and not really considering the TOC - let alone the type of train they'll get.

And if you write this book that one person will buy, will you give a refund to people who thought they were going to get a certain train with a certain seat type, and then get something totally different?

I never said I was writing a book, you did !

You, and others, are correct that many travellers don`t have an option as to which train comapany to use, but some do. For instance when we went Sheffield to Aberdeen we could have gone GNER or XC.
Finally I think that train companies which provide more leg room, like Grand Central (and Wrexham & Shropshire ?) get some credit, and others, like XC, are exposed for reducing legroom.

Geezertronic · 5 Sep 2010

Justin Smith said:
I think we can draw our own conclusions about London Midand, Virgin and First Capital Connect. On the subject of which Thameslink was a better name, and should never have been changed.
I look forward to the threats LM may send me, can I call them t*****s, or will Geezertronic object ?

Firstly, more publicity for your own website, is that your entire purpose here? To advertise your own website? You seem to be linking to it a lot recently?

Secondly, yes I will object if you call people names. If you've got something like that to say, you're better off saying it to their face rather than from behind your keyboard.

Thirdly, you do argue for the sake of arguing. Anyone who disagrees with you is usually called something from your dictionary of warped sense of humour (and yes I would say that to your face if I ever had the misfortume to meet you in person).

jon0844 · 5 Sep 2010

Geezertronic said:
Firstly, more publicity for your own website, is that your entire purpose here? To advertise your own website? You seem to be linking to it a lot recently?

I am sure the page rank is jumping up as we speak, as Google measures all the links from one single site!

And I'd always do business with a site that has stuff like this on it:

So yes, low energy bulbs are more energy efficient, but, certainly in this country, those figures you read of saving 75% power are absolute bollocks.

How good are low energy bulbs (technical name compact fluorescent bulbs or CFLs) at
actually giving off light ? Many of us have taken the lighting equivalent given on the box with
a large pinch of salt, and we`re right to do so. Even the European Commission, which is
behind all this legislation, admits that many of the lighting claims of the CFLs are "not true". Furthermore many of us have always known what a report in the Institute of Engineering &
Technology confirmed, that is, that CFLs light output declines with time. The research in
the latter journal indicated that whilst incandescent bulbs may drop by up to 7% in their
light output, CFLs routinely drop by 22% (or more) as they age.

And all that`s before we talk about low energy bulbs not working with dimmer switches and
they take a lot longer to come on to full brightness. I only use CFL bulbs in locations
without dimmer switches and which aren`t constantly being turned on/off.
There are even theories about that low energy light bulbs cause headaches.....

Very professional. And the last sentence about theories, with nothing to back up that 'theory'.

Makes you really trust anything and anyone involved with that website doesn't it!

Oh, and here's the proof needed:

If you think that others may also find the site of interest, you can help increase the number

of visitors to it. How ? Well most people find this site from search engines, and the higher

a site is ranked on those search engines the more people click on to it. Now the single

most important factor affecting a sites ranking is the number of links onto it, and that`s

where you can help, a lot.

We`d be grateful for any link onto this website from any other website, e.g. your own

website, or a Forum, or a Blog (not that I really know what one of those is.....) or whatever.

Any link to us is great, but the higher ranked the website from which that link comes the

better. Furthermore the "link text" also matters. Link text ? What the hell is that ? Well it`s

the text on which the link is placed. Let`s try a worked example (as they used to say at

school) and let`s use that ultimate subject of disinformation, the digital aerial.

Incidentally, as of Jan 2010, for the search term digital aerial this site, which probably

explains more about "digital aerials" than any other, is not in the top 10 pages of Google.

Above us are dozens of sites advertising the installation or sale of something which doesn`t

even exist, namely, said digital aerial. How can that be right ? ! ? Well those sites selling

digital aerials pay Search Engine Optimisation companies to get them up the rankings......

Anyway, back to today`s lesson.

Take the link in this sentence :

This website tells you that there isn`t any such thing as a digital aerial.

In this example the link text is on the word "website", but nobody puts the term "website"

into a search engine, so although it`s still a link to us, which we are grateful for, it`d be

better like this :

This website tells you there isn`t any such thing as a digital aerial.

The link text is now on the term digital aerial, so search engines are more likely to increase

our ranking for that term, so hopefully we can stop a few people having a new aerial fitted

when they don`t even need one.......

Basically any term with the word aerial in it is probably best, or the search term you tried to

find us on, and we were on page 6 of the search engines listing.

http://www.aerialsandtv.com/prices.html#Links

So, seems that legroom is actually measured in web traffic.

talltim · 5 Sep 2010

As all the data gathered so far shows that forum members aren't as tall as me (6'5") I say you are all agoraphobic dwarves

Geezertronic · 5 Sep 2010

talltim said:
As all the data gathered so far shows that forum members aren't as tall as me (6'5") I say you are all agoraphobic dwarves

Less of the agrophobic, Lurch

BrummyBoy · 5 Sep 2010

i was close at 6ft 4

jopsuk · 5 Sep 2010

(off topic) I find the rant about Google rank amusing- especially as the first "natural" (ie not paid for) result in google for "Digital aerial" clearly says "You don't need to have a 'digital aerial' for switchover."

Anyway, his site is probably buried due to poor design- most of those above will have paid a professional to ensure their sites are well optimised for search engines. Rather than self-made in a free web design programme. It might not be fair, but this does make a difference- don't shoot me for saying so Justin, I'm merely the messenger.

British railways seat legroom.

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

New Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member