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Is a train driver worth more than a Naval Officer?
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Depends where. There was that programme on TV about easyJet and the first officer was on 50k with a payrise due and captain's get more. I would think BA pay quite a bit more.
spyinthesky
Member
I would say being in command of a naval vessel has certainly more responsibility than a train driver.
Both are responsible to the safety of what they are in control of but only one of them manages the lives of the people on board.
As for the subalterns on a ship then no chance that they are worth a train driver salary(yet)
Both are responsible to the safety of what they are in control of but only one of them manages the lives of the people on board.
As for the subalterns on a ship then no chance that they are worth a train driver salary(yet)
Agree completely. Modern airliners have automation of mundane tasks to reduce crew load but mostly the automation refers complex and unusual decisions to the humans. Those decisions can impact hundreds of lives. You can’t just brake a failing airliner to a stop and put it in a safe state, you can with a car, train or bus.
Well the point I took from this whole post you did. You said that if a captain of a plane makes a mistake that everyone dies and then put the stats about not many casualties from train crashes and none really down to driver error.. Well that says to me that train drivers are highly skilled and very professional. Absolutely worth the money.
I always struggle with this type of topic because comparing one job with another is never as simple as it first seems. An extreme example, I don't suppose that a Lighthouse Keeper was that arduous but I am pretty certain that it would have driven me mad.
I was a teacher for half my working life, then a college lecturer for the rest. I was paid less for the second despite having greater responsibilities (and more contact time). But I got more job satisfaction* from it so never contemplated returning to the classroom, A job needs to valued by more than salary. Fortunately those posting before me have pointed out many of the other items (perks, pension and progression being three).
However, in an effort to cause controversy, some parts of the media just want to cause a rift so that audience figures or readership at least remains the same.
Incidentally, is it worth starting a thread 'Is a GB News Presenter worth more than a Naval officer or a Train Driver?' (Especially if it is their second job.)
* - others may have a different view but there was something about having your understanding challenged - not confrontationally or even openly but on hearing the views of others or on thinking things through while on my feet. Also I was working with them rather than directing them. I expected to learn from my students and I was infrequently disappointed.
I was a teacher for half my working life, then a college lecturer for the rest. I was paid less for the second despite having greater responsibilities (and more contact time). But I got more job satisfaction* from it so never contemplated returning to the classroom, A job needs to valued by more than salary. Fortunately those posting before me have pointed out many of the other items (perks, pension and progression being three).
However, in an effort to cause controversy, some parts of the media just want to cause a rift so that audience figures or readership at least remains the same.
Incidentally, is it worth starting a thread 'Is a GB News Presenter worth more than a Naval officer or a Train Driver?' (Especially if it is their second job.)
* - others may have a different view but there was something about having your understanding challenged - not confrontationally or even openly but on hearing the views of others or on thinking things through while on my feet. Also I was working with them rather than directing them. I expected to learn from my students and I was infrequently disappointed.
Yes. Quite often when people compare us to nurses I wonder why they don't compare us to say footballers. A job pays what it pays and you don't have to follow a particular career path. I don't moan that other people get paid more than me as I know what I wanted to do.
Lost property
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Actually, to judge from Rob Bells excellent series on the history of lighthouses, and the era of their construction, certainly off-shore, being a lighthouse keeper was a very arduous job.
Going back to the lament of the retired Commodore. The military have a long standing bias towards right wing politics and GB "News" is hardly impartial in this respect, then given the justified industrial disputes within the railways, train drivers are an easy target for an audience who would dearly love to return to working terms and conditions of previous centuries.
The key point, apart from the skill of course, for train drivers is the same as any occupation that directly involves the public.....responsibility.
It's also worth mentioning, that, when training baby engineers for the RAF, this based on what others have said, the most difficult part was not developing their skills, it was getting Flight Safety into their mindset from the beginning. The "if your car breaks down, you stop and call the AA..if an aircraft breaks down, you make front page headlines " analogy has been in use for decades.
Given the military, police, medics have all been the subjects of documentaries, some better than others, then as another poster suggested, maybe ASLEF and the RMT should also consider a series showing daily operational life across the railways, or, just specific to driver training and operations thereafter...warts and all. This might, just might, help dispel a few myths in the publics perception of the job and why the salary is warranted.
The only caveat being careful scrutiny of the script and, the choice of narrator. The last thing you need is some self centred "celeb / luvvie" determined to make sure they, not the contents of the programme, are the focus of viewers attention. Along with an inflection that isn't the inane childlike gabble associated with "Train Truckers "...another interesting programme that could benefit from an adult not given to hysterical hyperbole commentating.
Going back to the lament of the retired Commodore. The military have a long standing bias towards right wing politics and GB "News" is hardly impartial in this respect, then given the justified industrial disputes within the railways, train drivers are an easy target for an audience who would dearly love to return to working terms and conditions of previous centuries.
The key point, apart from the skill of course, for train drivers is the same as any occupation that directly involves the public.....responsibility.
It's also worth mentioning, that, when training baby engineers for the RAF, this based on what others have said, the most difficult part was not developing their skills, it was getting Flight Safety into their mindset from the beginning. The "if your car breaks down, you stop and call the AA..if an aircraft breaks down, you make front page headlines " analogy has been in use for decades.
Given the military, police, medics have all been the subjects of documentaries, some better than others, then as another poster suggested, maybe ASLEF and the RMT should also consider a series showing daily operational life across the railways, or, just specific to driver training and operations thereafter...warts and all. This might, just might, help dispel a few myths in the publics perception of the job and why the salary is warranted.
The only caveat being careful scrutiny of the script and, the choice of narrator. The last thing you need is some self centred "celeb / luvvie" determined to make sure they, not the contents of the programme, are the focus of viewers attention. Along with an inflection that isn't the inane childlike gabble associated with "Train Truckers "...another interesting programme that could benefit from an adult not given to hysterical hyperbole commentating.
ChrisC
Established Member
If you are doing what you wanted to do and are happy in your job then maybe you don‘t feel it necessary to moan if other people are getting paid more. I did 36 years as a teacher and for most of that time I was very happy in my job. It was only during my last few years with the excessive amount of admin, often just to tick boxes, that I became less enthusiastic about the workload and long hours. I enjoyed being in the classroom with the children right up until I retired. I could have earned more as a teacher if I had sought promotion and took on management responsibilities. As a primary school teacher I wanted to remain full time in the classroom working with the children and didn’t want extra responsibilities.
My pay was adequate for what I needed and I can’t remember moaning about other people earning far more than me. I was always aware that many of my friends in other jobs were earning far more than me. Bringing it back to the theme of this of this thread it was the tube strikes that were occurring at the time of my retirement in 2014 which really made think. I was retiring after 36 years experience as a teacher and my final year salary, at the top of the upper pay scale, was around £37k. The tube drivers were even then earning in excess of £60k. It did make me think as to the fairness. But I’d enjoyed my career, had adequate amount of money for my needs and being able to save, even when retiring a few years early at 58, I was receiving a relatively good pension. Having in addition just started to receive my State Pension I’m actually now quite well off in my retirement.
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I assume that is a rhetorical question!
Although I was thinking more a bit more recently than that, it does make the point that the average person probably knows less about some jobs than is required to comment on them, me being no exception.
Interestingly, I never wanted to be a train driver when I was a kid as it seemed it could veer from the predictable (same rails as yesterday) to the unpredictable (something/one on the line, an intervention of mother nature, an event on board) very quickly, requiring spontaneous (but considered) reactions. I wanted to be the man that changed the destination boards at a station, and made the announcements - mainly because there was one at a station near me who did so in an interesting way - slightly mispronouncing some, particularly those where posh (by our standards) people lived, another one could rattle through the station names in double pick time until he came to 'A N D C H A R I N G C R O S S' . Maybe why I rarely contribute to the early listed Forums!
The narrators of decades past were far better, they had a very sober, almost distant, form of elecution and the scripts they used certainly didn't shy away from quite a high level of detail when compared with today.
The alternative would be for staff involves to narrate such a programme themselves.
Far too much television these days is dumbed down to try and hold the interest of simpletons. There seems to be no attempt at all to try and elevate the simpletons' level of understanding and "drama" is regularly edited in to the point that it's unclear where reality ends and fiction starts.
It's a good thing then that @train_lover didn't make that suggestion then, isn't it? The question wasn't "Should everyone get paid as much as train drivers?", it was "Is everyone else paid too little?", which is a perfectly valid question.
Given recent inflationary pressure the minimum wage isn't nearly high enough. Inflation outpaced wage growth for much of 2022 and 2023 so, in real terms, most people have been getting poorer.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
this is the tweet i referred to:
I suspect it was tongue in cheek:
(Context: discussing technical aspects shown in picture of HMS Diamond firing that widely circulated in the UK media )
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dk1
Veteran Member
As a train driver I have never understood why I am compared with any other job. I have never done that to any other profession nor did I do it to train drivers before I became one.
irish_rail
Established Member
I guess it's partly down to ignorance of the role from the general public. Whenever I tell people I'm a train driver I get questions like do you have to steer? , or is it just pressing a start stop button?. This is why the public cannot understand why train drivers earn decent money, they simply don't realise the complexities of the job and therefore compare it with completely non comparable jobs.
I don't think the base question of a train driver being worth more than a naval officer can be properly answered, because their value is measured on different criteria.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect this specific comparison to be brought up by anyone other than the likes of GB News who are trying to be a British Fox News and thus will pander to a sort of patriotic sentiment like "these greedy train drivers are earning more than our military who risk their lives for their country".
I would argue that military staff are somewhat underpaid though because, at least in my opinion, a salary of £30-40k isn't particularly enticing for a job where you will get shouted and barked at with intense drills and exercise during peacetime training, or shot at while watching your friends getting blown up during wartime, when you can earn just as much if not more in a cushier job.
Train drivers, given the responsibilities, skills, training time and need for job retention, I would say are paid quite fairly and are somewhat more valuable than other job roles for those aforementioned reasons.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect this specific comparison to be brought up by anyone other than the likes of GB News who are trying to be a British Fox News and thus will pander to a sort of patriotic sentiment like "these greedy train drivers are earning more than our military who risk their lives for their country".
I would argue that military staff are somewhat underpaid though because, at least in my opinion, a salary of £30-40k isn't particularly enticing for a job where you will get shouted and barked at with intense drills and exercise during peacetime training, or shot at while watching your friends getting blown up during wartime, when you can earn just as much if not more in a cushier job.
Train drivers, given the responsibilities, skills, training time and need for job retention, I would say are paid quite fairly and are somewhat more valuable than other job roles for those aforementioned reasons.
All true, but there's that's somewhat made up for by paid accomodation and meals given that those make up about a third of spending for a typical household.
I suppose that is true to be fair. That does bring up another good point though because when people think of train driver salaries they might be thinking of the £60-70k you'd earn working for the intercity operators like LNER and Avanti, but operators such as Northern offer £54k which is closer to that of a Lieutenant with the Royal Navy (£47.5k) but with it's own additional benefits instead to make up for it. Maybe if the military officers sold off their conditions then they too would be paid similarly to the highest earning drivers, but I digress.
spyinthesky
Member
Accommodation and food have never been free. The former at a reduced rate but food is the same price in supermarkets for everyone.
Sailors deployed on ships have to pay for accommodation and food? That's news to me.
This is part of the issue - newspapers like the headlines figures and anyone who knows the industry can easily refute them. Much the same thing when posts are banded around about "train drivers can earn 6 figures", it is not unique to just the railway industry where nonsense is put out, but that is what the public sees.
train_lover
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As mentioned by NajaB, I didn't make the suggestion that everyone should be paid what a driver does. My point is, rather than different pockets of the public getting upset at what a driver is paid. They/ we all should be getting upset with what little many people around the country are getting paid.
On a side note and to be clear...I'm a driver but let's be honest. Money has absolutely killed the railway for a whole host of different reasons. But the most obvious one the huge influx of new drivers who give zero f@%^s about the job or industry. They are just here to collect a decent pay packet, and whilst I don't blame them, I stand firmly by my comment. Money has destroyed the railway.
Killingworth
Established Member
We seem to have drifted off from this OP that compared very vaguely train drivers salaries to those of naval officers. No mention of airline pilots. No details of what ships were to be commanded.
This appears to relate to a difficulty finding appropriately trained submariners for a very senior position. The situation is so acute they're advertising on LinkedIn in the hope that previously retired officers might return to active service - as would probably be expected in time of war as reservists. It's causing quite a fuss!
Royal Navy salary levels up to Commodore are here; http://www.armedforces.co.uk/royalnavypayscales.php
See Marine Industry News for the story; https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/linkedin-royal-navy-admiral-advert/
Linkedin advert for Admiral makes Royal Navy look ‘desperate’
Monday, January 8th, 2024
Written by: Marine Industry News
The Royal Navy is coming under sustained fire after advertising for a rear-Admiral on Linkedin. Normally, naval officers rise through the ranks, but this time it appears that there is no one to step into the role and thus, recruiters are trying to lure a retired officer back into the fold.
“It’s unheard of as you can’t recruit externally,” says an ex-navy officer Marine Industry News source. It “makes the navy look desperate. As this is the job that is responsible for the nuclear deterrent, it [public advertising] also undermines the perception of a military that is well run and thus a country that is secure. Madness. It’s one of those own goal moments.”
The role, director of submarines, which the navy describes as ‘responsible for highly classified stealth, elite operations and Trident, our nuclear deterrent,’ comes with a salary of circa £150,000-a-year.
Linkedin navy advert described as ‘utterly shameful’
One former senior submariner told The Times it was “utterly shameful”. He said that when the advert was first published (Dec 2023), the only person who applied was a weapons engineer commodore, “who was not properly qualified.”
Among a myriad of competencies, the qualifications state applicants must ‘be serving as a member of the Reserve Forces or have served with the Regular Forces’. That directive is not acting as a deterrent to commentators on social media who – if they fit the bill – have until 9 Jan to apply.
One says: “Might apply as I was good at playing the game battle ships. Seriously what a state to be in. Come on MOD pull your fingers out…”
Another offers to have a shot. “I can give it a go. I could absolutely smash Harpoon on the PC and as for SSN-21 Seawolf on the Amiga… I can also hold my breath underwater for 48 seconds and can confirm Hunt for Red October is the best submarine film. I’d say I’m ideal.”
Mike Davis-Marks, a retired submariner, told The Times: “It’s genuinely surprising that the navy is not able to generate a serving two-star that has the right experience and qualifications.
“The service used to take a lot of care to create sufficient officers to ensure it had a choice as to who would do a senior role.”
The former commanding officer of HMS Turbulent says that “something is not right with the naval manpower pipeline within the service”.
Candidates should have been approached directly
Marine Industry News‘ source continues: “Really they are using Linkedin to appeal to the retired community, yet there’s a very narrow group of people qualified and [they] could have been approached directly.” This begs the discussion as to whether the powers that be within the service are deliberately looking to stoke up public discussion about the Royal Navy and its current recruitment predicament?
The former head of the Royal Navy, Admiral Lord West, was last week quoted as saying that Britain’s warships are “dropping like flies”. He said that the UK needs a much bigger surface fleet, as the Royal Navy is presently limited in what it is able to achieve. Underpinning this, a drastic shortage of sailors is forcing the Royal Navy to decommission two of its warships due to lack of personnel. In order to man new frigates, HMS Westminster, recently refurbished at cost of circa £100m, and HMS Argyll will allegedly be decommissioned this year.
“Oh wow! It’s so tragically pathetic it’s almost funny,” says a third X (formerly Twitter) commentator. “Clearly useless grunters then, no crews, no offensive weapons, no ships… And the government still insist on trying to play with the big boys.. glad I left years ago. Not sure if should learn Russian first or Chinese.”
Main image courtesy of the Royal Navy, via Linkedin advert for rear-Admiral.
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deltic
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Surely the point being made by the retired naval commander was that officers in the navy were underpaid not that train drivers are overpaid. Given the problem the armed forces generally have with recruitment it would seem to be an uncontroversial point to make.
swt_passenger
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Never in this case means after about 1968? (I will check), when food and accommodation charges were first introduced.
That may be the case but why choose an industry in which there is currently industrial action? He must have known that some sections of the media would take advantage.
Killingworth
Established Member
I suspect he was wanting media to notice and the current dispute may have very slightly helped. Most who are interested in the nuclear deterrent and the current inability of our armed forces to man what few vessels we still have, will not be over bothered about the pay comparison. It comes alongside similar shortages of highly skilled personnel in the Army and RAF. Gone are the days when young people would easily accept long periods away from home to see the world. Pay alone won't resolve that.
spyinthesky
Member
I wasn’t aware of that although not relevant to today’s comparison.
Never having been in the rail industry, I believe that train drivers are well paid and there generally seems to be more job satisfaction but I don’t think that they are overpaid.
The problem that I have experienced within the military departments is that it is only ever retired senior members that speak out.
During my service I never considered to be low paid and enjoyed 28 years. I do see the whole argument as another media debacle which gets reactions on forums like this.
Without having any formal transferable qualifications I found climbing the ladder in civilian life quite a doddle and it was my experiences that lit up my cv.
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