CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Jacob Porrett · 3 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
(I'm only answering for "have been in service") - I believe it still is only those 7 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033 & 197034) that have been in service so far.

(Plus all 56 non-ETCS 197s - 197001-197002, 197004-197021, 197042-197051, 197101-197112/197113-197126).

This leaves 14 197s that are still to enter service, all of which are ETCS-fitted units (197022-197027, 197032 and 197035-041).

Therefore, no more 197s (neither ETCS-fitted nor non-ETCS) have first entered service since you last asked nearly a month ago on the 6/4/25 - actually no more since 197029 entered service on the 22/2/25, which is over two (!) months ago.

(By the way, how appropriate that my 197th post is about 197s )

Are there any 197s at Long Marston at the moment?

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Kite159 · 3 May 2025

Jez said:
That is really bad news if they can only go 3c below the outside temperature. What if we have days where it hits 30c plus?

That list of 197s that have been in service looks correct. I dont know where 197033 is however, ive not seen it for a while and its the only 197 of those in service that i havent yet been on.

Last I heard 033 was dumped in one of the sidings alongside platform 1 at Holyhead station.

60159 · 3 May 2025

Jacob Porrett said:
Are there any 197s at Long Marston at the moment?

I‘m still trying to establish what you mean by only one more to come through the system. I agree with post 8725 which seems to be at odds with what you’re saying. It could be that 5 of the 6 are at Long Marston or elsewhere.

SeaKing · 3 May 2025

I think there are still 6 to leave Factory.

Peter Sarf · 3 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
(I'm only answering for "have been in service") - I believe it still is only those 7 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033 & 197034) that have been in service so far.

(Plus all 56 non-ETCS 197s - 197001-197002, 197004-197021, 197042-197051, 197101-197112/197113-197126).

This leaves 14 197s that are still to enter service, all of which are ETCS-fitted units (197022-197027, 197032 and 197035-041).

Therefore, no more 197s (neither ETCS-fitted nor non-ETCS) have first entered service since you last asked nearly a month ago on the 6/4/25 - actually no more since 197029 entered service on the 22/2/25, which is over two (!) months ago.

(By the way, how appropriate that my 197th post is about 197s )

Thanks for the info.

It does indeed look like not much chance of change any time soon.

Mikey C · 3 May 2025

Cambrian359 said:
Did they say if they meant thermal shock to the passengers or thermal shock to the internal materials of the train?
I realise it might sound a daft question as the trains construction materials don’t walk on and off the trains like passengers but as the air can flow in and out it seems reasonable to ask!

Yes it's confusing. Other trains have a much bigger differential between the outside and inside temperatures without either the train or the passengers falling apart!

Diedinium · 3 May 2025

WirralLine said:
The 197s are never fridge like (except in winter if the driver has forgot to turn the saloon HVAC on altogether). TfW themselves say the system is designed to keep the saloon around 3c below outside temperature and can't turn it lower as it could result in "thermal shock" - even though other stock such as the 175s (or Northern 195s as you mention) are significantly cooler than outside on a hot day.

If you ever do notice the saloon HVAC is clearly not on please say something to the guard or driver - a lot of people at TfW are completely unaware that the saloon HVAC gets turned off by going in to sleep mode/ECS mode so when the unit is woken up again it's often left off.

185143 · 3 May 2025

The 175s were usually lovely on warm days. Well, often one half of the carriage was a fridge and the other unbearable in my experience.

I remember one day years ago ending up on the Manchester-Llandudno peak 67+mk3 set. Something had gone off at Piccadilly so it'd started at Occy Road. The train was far less busy than normal. Wasn't my normal train but ended up on it due to the disruption.

It was like a fridge inside, the trolley came through and sold plenty of cold drinks as well. That was probably the highlight of my pre railway 9-5 commute to be honest! Well... highlight for the right reasons anyway.

I've been on plenty of cool 195s, but similarly I've been on plenty of toasty ones. Pre refurb Pendos seemed to have good AC, as do Turbo/Electrostars and 444s (in particular) when it works.

vicbury · 3 May 2025

Diedinium said:
If you ever do notice the saloon HVAC is clearly not on please say something to the guard or driver - a lot of people at TfW are completely unaware that the saloon HVAC gets turned off by going in to sleep mode/ECS mode so when the unit is woken up again it's often left off.

Surely a simple software update could automatically reactivate the HVAC when the train goes into service again?

BenBracken · 3 May 2025

Heavy delays on services west of Swansea this evening due to a 197 breaking down at Gowerton, causing bottlenecks and staff being all over the place.

Speaking to the staff afterwards it was another example of the unit needing to be reset which sounds like a common problem. They also said the repeated toilet fault cause services to be cancelled on lines where there are none on the platforms.

Is there nothing that can be done to get to the root cause of these faults? Just taking the plunge and withdrawing batches to send back to CAF for permanent fixes? Might be worth taking the pain of buses in the short term rather than limping on with unreliable trains?

Jez · 5 May 2025

Was on 197014 earlier, into Swansea, where it was announced it would be taken out of service on arrival at Swansea due to no working toilet! I guess this is the issue with each 2 car set only having 1 toilet.

What actually happened was it attached to the 1454 Swansea-Crewe, I am assuming the other unit did have a toilet that was working.

I feel sorry for any passengers going further as it wasnt clear what the plan was at Swansea. First of all told another unit would be taking over the Pembroke Service, then possobly 014 would attach to another unit, then it sounded like the delayed Fishguard service that should have been ahead of the Pembroke one would be splitting at Carmarthen with a portion going to the Dock. Seemed an absolute shambles to be honest!

tfw756rider · 6 May 2025

Jez said:
Was on 197014 earlier, into Swansea, where it was announced it would be taken out of service on arrival at Swansea due to no working toilet! I guess this is the issue with each 2 car set only having 1 toilet.

What actually happened was it attached to the 1454 Swansea-Crewe, I am assuming the other unit did have a toilet that was working.

I feel sorry for any passengers going further as it wasn't clear what the plan was at Swansea. First of all told another unit would be taking over the Pembroke Service, then possibly 014 would attach to another unit, then it sounded like the delayed Fishguard service that should have been ahead of the Pembroke one would be splitting at Carmarthen with a portion going to the Dock. Seemed an absolute shambles to be honest!

Despite their flaws, I like 197s a lot (the look of them, the sound of them with the "172-style" engine/gearbox setup, etc.) but, apart from all their other issues, I really think something should be done about the toilets.

As someone who uses the modern TfW units in South and West Wales etc. (197s, 231s and of course 756s) and the outgoing 158s in Mid Wales, on the latter, I actually noticed both toilets on a 2-car 158 being used at the same time.

Compare that with a 2-car 197 only having one toilet, and the CET tank is too small so it can get full half-way through the day, so then, no toilet.

Ideally the 2-car 197s should be fitted with a second (small) toilet in addition to the big toilet (yes, the seating capacity would further reduce, but the eventual "single-unit" use of the 2-car 197s shouldn't be on services that really want more carriages anyway).

At the very least, a bigger (or additional) CET tank should be fitted.

Jez · 6 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
Despite their flaws, I like 197s a lot (the look of them, the sound of them with the "172-style" engine/gearbox setup, etc.) but, apart from all their other issues, I really think something should be done about the toilets.

As someone who uses the modern TfW units in South and West Wales etc. (197s, 231s and of course 756s) and the outgoing 158s in Mid Wales, on the latter, I actually noticed both toilets on a 2-car 158 being used at the same time.

Compare that with a 2-car 197 only having one toilet, and the CET tank is too small so it can get full half-way through the day, so then, no toilet.

Ideally the 2-car 197s should be fitted with a second (small) toilet in addition to the big toilet (yes, the seating capacity would further reduce, but the eventual "single-unit" use of the 2-car 197s shouldn't be on services that really want more carriages anyway).

At the very least, a bigger (or additional) CET tank should be fitted.

I agree. There should have been a 2nd toilet on the 2 car sets. Even though the majority wont run in single formation, there are still some routes such as Pembroke-Cardiff and Conwy Valley that will be booked for a 2 car 197 long term. If they got rid of the catering cupboard on the 2 cars and replace with a toilet that would be better. Catering is going to be mostly on services doubled up such as Cardiff-Manchester, Cambrian and North Wales Coast. The only issue might be if a pair of 2 cars run instead of a 2 and 3.

sd0733 · 6 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
At the very least, a bigger (or additional) CET tank should be fifitted.

A low proportion of the locked out toilets are due to the CET tanks being full so that would achieve very little.
Generally they end up locked out due to faults with the doors or the toilet itself rather than the tanks being full. The toilets are so unreliable that they don't spend enough time in use to get full.
There's been several packages put together to improve toilet reliability but unfortunately they're still awful, the amount of resets that have to be carried out on some sets is ridiculous.

tfw756rider · 6 May 2025

sd0733 said:
A low proportion of the locked out toilets are due to the CET tanks being full so that would achieve very little.
Generally they end up locked out due to faults with the doors or the toilet itself rather than the tanks being full. The toilets are so unreliable that they don't spend enough time in use to get full.
There's been several packages put together to improve toilet reliability but unfortunately they're still awful, the amount of resets that have to be carried out on some sets is ridiculous.

Ah thanks for the correction, I had been misled by someone. Hopefully a proper fix can eventually be sorted out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2025 ==

Jez said:
I agree. There should have been a 2nd toilet on the 2 car sets. Even though the majority wont run in single formation, there are still some routes such as Pembroke-Cardiff and Conwy Valley that will be booked for a 2 car 197 long term. If they got rid of the catering cupboard on the 2 cars and replace with a toilet that would be better. Catering is going to be mostly on services doubled up such as Cardiff-Manchester, Cambrian and North Wales Coast. The only issue might be if a pair of 2 cars run instead of a 2 and 3.

Yes, I mean, even with a small toilet and the catering cupboard in that vehicle, the seating capacity would probably reduce from 116 to still above the 108 (59+49) of an Active Travel 153 set.

However, acknowledging what @sd0733 said, it wouldn't make sense to just add a second toilet before a proper fix for the general toilet unreliability is found and implemented.

Jez · 6 May 2025

sd0733 said:
A low proportion of the locked out toilets are due to the CET tanks being full so that would achieve very little.
Generally they end up locked out due to faults with the doors or the toilet itself rather than the tanks being full. The toilets are so unreliable that they don't spend enough time in use to get full.
There's been several packages put together to improve toilet reliability but unfortunately they're still awful, the amount of resets that have to be carried out on some sets is ridiculous.

Is the rule they can only travel a certain distance without a working toilet? Yesterday the Cardiff-Pembroke was taken out of service in Swansea. Unless of course the fault developed on route. The train was 20 minutes late leaving Cardiff so I assume it was due to no other option than to run a set without a toilet rather than being due to the fire.

childwallblues · 6 May 2025

Travelled on the 1445 Chester to Liverpool (197013) today and had the benefit of a trolley service. The operator said his service had been cancelled.

Jez · 6 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
Ah thanks for the correction, I had been misled by someone. Hopefully a proper fix can eventually be sorted out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2025 ==

Yes, I mean, even with a small toilet and the catering cupboard in that vehicle, the seating capacity would probably reduce from 116 to still above the 108 (59+49) of an Active Travel 153 set.

However, acknowledging what @sd0733 said, it wouldn't make sense to just add a second toilet before a proper fix for the general toilet unreliability is found and implemented.

Also it could be complicated if the catering area was removed from some 2 cars and not others. Ive just thought all the Cambrian will be 2 cars so unless they did half and half....

Speaking of the catering does anyone know the plan for this. At the moment we still just a trolley service (if lucky!) on a 197. Usually the catering person walks down the train asking if anyone wants refreshments and there seems to be very little uptake of it at the moment. Seen as the 197s have been in service over 2 years now is there any plan to make use of the catering area?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2025 ==

childwallblues said:
Travelled on the 1445 Chester to Liverpool (197013) today and had the benefit of a trolley service. The operator said his service had been cancelled.

Makes sense to make use of them. Ive seen one on Swanline a few times when I assume other services have been cancelled.

sd0733 · 6 May 2025

Jez said:
Is the rule they can only travel a certain distance without a working toilet? Yesterday the Cardiff-Pembroke was taken out of service in Swansea. Unless of course the fault developed on route. The train was 20 minutes late leaving Cardiff so I assume it was due to no other option than to run a set without a toilet rather than being due to the fire.

Generally a toiletless train wasn't supposed to go for more than a 1 hour journey (how the 153/9s were allowed on their own on Crewe-Chester/Shrewsbury and the likes of Coryton etc). Above that toilet stops are to be made but if there aren't any stations to stop at with toilets then obviously that takes away that option. Not sure if Pembroke has any toilets en-route but potentially no possible provision for the passengers down there (or Crew for twice the length of time) is more likely to be swapped out/cancelled than on a shorter or more toilets at stations route.

Anonymous10 · 6 May 2025

sd0733 said:
Generally a toiletless train wasn't supposed to go for more than a 1 hour journey (how the 153/9s were allowed on their own on Crewe-Chester/Shrewsbury and the likes of Coryton etc). Above that toilet stops are to be made but if there aren't any stations to stop at with toilets then obviously that takes away that option. Not sure if Pembroke has any toilets en-route but potentially no possible provision for the passengers down there (or Crew for twice the length of time) is more likely to be swapped out/cancelled than on a shorter or more toilets at stations route.

Pembroke line west of Swansea has the below options to my knowledge.

Llanelli,
Pembrey and Burry Port (immediately off the west bound platform , council owned),
Carmarthen.

No stations west of Carmarthen with the exception of Haverfordwest have toilets on them or immediately in the vicinity.

BenBracken · 6 May 2025

Haverfordwest toilet is only open when the ticket office is I think, which is until 1pm. I spoke to a guard the other day who said they won’t send a unit west of Carmarthen with a broken toilet due to the lack of WCs on stations, so they cancel the service! And put people onto a bus without a toilet!

Rhydgaled · 7 May 2025

Anonymous10 said:
sd0733 said:

Generally a toiletless train wasn't supposed to go for more than a 1 hour journey (how the 153/9s were allowed on their own on Crewe-Chester/Shrewsbury and the likes of Coryton etc). Above that toilet stops are to be made but if there aren't any stations to stop at with toilets then obviously that takes away that option. Not sure if Pembroke has any toilets en-route but potentially no possible provision for the passengers down there (or Crew for twice the length of time) is more likely to be swapped out/cancelled than on a shorter or more toilets at stations route.

Click to expand...

Pembroke line west of Swansea has the below options to my knowledge.

Llanelli,
Pembrey and Burry Port (immediately off the west bound platform , council owned),
Carmarthen.

No stations west of Carmarthen with the exception of Haverfordwest have toilets on them or immediately in the vicinity.

My knowledge is a good few years out of date now, but west of Carmarthen there are/were toilets available at Fishguard Harbour (Stena Line) as well, and the last time I was down there a single toilet cubicle had been retrofitted to the side of the 'Station Cafe' at Fishguard & Goodwick (on council land, outside the railway fence). Sadly the latter, in common with the toilets at Fishguard's main 'bus station', were (and probably still are) behind a paywall. I assume those are all still there. In terms of facilities for train crew, do they have access to Network Rail buildings that are not open to the general public? If so, there's a possibly of toilets being available to train crew at Whitland since the station building was 'renovated' during Arriva days (I was under the impression that this was done for the benefit of P.Way staff, but I'm not sure of that and don't know whether toilets were provided).

BenBracken said:
Haverfordwest toilet is only open when the ticket office is I think, which is until 1pm. I spoke to a guard the other day who said they won’t send a unit west of Carmarthen with a broken toilet due to the lack of WCs on stations, so they cancel the service! And put people onto a bus without a toilet!

Again it was a while ago now, but I think I've used the gents at Haverfordwest much later in the afternoon than that, at least on weekdays. It would have been while I was waiting for a bus, which may have been due around 4pm or maybe even 5pm. The ticket office had certainly closed for the afternoon by that time, although the newspaper/magazine stand in there may have been open.

Jez said:
Speaking of the catering does anyone know the plan for this. At the moment we still just a trolley service (if lucky!) on a 197. Usually the catering person walks down the train asking if anyone wants refreshments and there seems to be very little uptake of it at the moment. Seen as the 197s have been in service over 2 years now is there any plan to make use of the catering area?

I'm pretty sure the catering 'area' (more often called the 'catering cupboard' on this forum I think) on the 197s is just there to support the trolley offering (by allowing them to hold a larger stock of snacks and drinks, and replenish hot water on the trolley for tea and coffee, and maybe to park the trolley out the way if it gets busy) and not to act as a mini-buffet counter of sorts.

craigybagel · 7 May 2025

BenBracken said:
Haverfordwest toilet is only open when the ticket office is I think, which is until 1pm. I spoke to a guard the other day who said they won’t send a unit west of Carmarthen with a broken toilet due to the lack of WCs on stations, so they cancel the service! And put people onto a bus without a toilet!

Bear in mind it's not just the passengers who need access to a toilet, there's the traincrew as well - and given they have to do the return trip their journey is likely to be at least twice as long as what the passengers have. The staff facilities at both Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven are listed as "currently unavailable" on the list of agreed break locations for traincrew.

Jez · 7 May 2025

Rhydgaled said:
I'm pretty sure the catering 'area' (more often called the 'catering cupboard' on this forum I think) on the 197s is just there to support the trolley offering (by allowing them to hold a larger stock of snacks and drinks, and replenish hot water on the trolley for tea and coffee, and maybe to park the trolley out the way if it gets busy) and not to act as a mini-buffet counter of sorts.

Im aware it wont be a buffet counter like on the MK4's but i think there is going to be a fridge there and somewhere to warm up food and offer a bigger selection of hot and cold snacks than what they do currently. I dont think they even have sandwiches on the trolley anymore and its mainly just crisps, cakes and other light snacks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2025 ==

craigybagel said:
Bear in mind it's not just the passengers who need access to a toilet, there's the traincrew as well - and given they have to do the return trip their journey is likely to be at least twice as long as what the passengers have. The staff facilities at both Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven are listed as "currently unavailable" on the list of agreed break locations for traincrew.

I would assume even if there were facilities at Milford Haven etc it wouldnt be an official rest break as the crew would still be in charge of the train during the turnaround times. Same when they terminated at Manchester Picadilly, its also so short there is probably barely any time for a break. I always assumed official breaks would be when the train crew leave the train at Crewe or Cardiff for example and another train crew take over.

The_Train · 7 May 2025

197035 appears to have entered service today

Currently at Manchester Airport waiting to work:

Realtime Trains | 1D38 1325 Manchester Airport to Llandudno | 07/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1D38 1325 departure from Manchester Airport to Llandudno on 07/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

craigybagel · 7 May 2025

Jez said:
I would assume even if there were facilities at Milford Haven etc it wouldnt be an official rest break as the crew would still be in charge of the train during the turnaround times. Same when they terminated at Manchester Picadilly, its also so short there is probably barely any time for a break. I always assumed official breaks would be when the train crew leave the train at Crewe or Cardiff for example and another train crew take over.

I was quoting from the list of locations that are agreed for the use of diagrammed breaks. Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock are both on the list for Short breaks but not Main breaks, but are shown as currently unavailable. If they were available, and were used to ensure traincrew diagrams keep within the legal hours, enough time would be provided in the diagram to clear out the train and shut it down, have a break, then start it up again before departure. For a 197, this would be 10 minutes plus the time taken for the actual break, so it would be possible on some services but not all in the current timetable.

Although not used at present, Manchester Piccadilly is an agreed location for main breaks and was used as recently as the last timetable as such.

Peter Sarf · 7 May 2025

The_Train said:
197035 appears to have entered service today

Currently at Manchester Airport waiting to work:

Realtime Trains | 1D38 1325 Manchester Airport to Llandudno | 07/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1D38 1325 departure from Manchester Airport to Llandudno on 07/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks.
Note to self to check RTT tonight - incase it was a typo and gets corrected.

WirralLine · 7 May 2025

Jez said:
Im aware it wont be a buffet counter like on the MK4's but i think there is going to be a fridge there and somewhere to warm up food and offer a bigger selection of hot and cold snacks than what they do currently. I dont think they even have sandwiches on the trolley anymore and its mainly just crisps, cakes and other light snacks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2025 ==

They have a fridge. As far as I'm aware there are no facilities for heating food and I don't think any are planned. They have fresh water tanks fitted but apparently these wont be used due to the process required to make sure they meet the safety regulations etc. Last I heard the plan for the catering cupboards was to replace the current doors (which open up into the aisle) with a roller shutter style door. The trolley would be housed in the cupboard and orders can be made at seat via QR codes, the host would then bring your order to you.

No idea if it's changed since, not heard anything in a while.

The_Train · 7 May 2025

Peter Sarf said:
Thanks.
Note to self to check RTT tonight - incase it was a typo and gets corrected.

Seen that it has been Mk1 eyeballed by someone on another forum

BillStampy · 7 May 2025

197119 has suddenly appeared to become Mr Urdd...! Officially named "Mistar Urdd" on the unit which has some vinyls of the mascot across the unit. Quite interesting and I'm all for putting these onto the 197s.

CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

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