CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

Hi all, Does anyone know if driver and guard training on the class 197s at Machynlleth and Pwllheli has actually started yet and are there still issues getting the 197s up the coast to Pwllheli? Thanks in advance.

No training for Cambrian crews as yet, other than I believe a small amount of Driver Instructors

 

[Peter Sarf]

197003,197028,029,31,33/34 so far running in traffic

Thankyou, very much.

Correct, the ETCS-fitted (Cambrian lines main/coast) 197s are 21x 197/0s numbered 197003 and 197022-197041.

7 of these have so far been used in service (I believe with the ETCS isolated for now) as normal 197s on conventionally-signalled lines:

197003/028/029/030/031/033/034

======================

All 56 non-ETCS 197s (30x 2-car - 197001-197002, 197004-197021, 197042-197051 and 26x 3-car, comprising 12x 188-seat - 197101-197112, and 14x 174-seat - 197113-197126) have been in service,

plus the 7 ETCS-fitted 2-car 197s mentioned above (197003, 197028-197031, 197033-197034) = 63 197s that have been in service (37x 2-car and 26x 3-car),

leaving 14 197s that haven't yet been in service (all of which are ETCS-fitted 2-car - 197022-197027, 197032, 197035-197041). Once those 14 have all entered service then the number will of course match the build quantities (77 total units, comprising 51x 2-car and 26x 3-car).

Thankyou for your detailed reply.

I presume it is a moving feast with perhaps more of the ETCS fitted 197s gradually slipping into service ?.
I recall these have started being used to cover for non-availability of ordinary 197s.

With TfW generally facing a unit shortage as the 150s reach the end of their days I wonder if using all the 197s makes sense until the 398s cause the expected moves (of 231s & 756s) and then the ETCS 197s can go onto Cambrian Coast/Main.
Would the life left in the 158s force that move ?.
It would certainly avoid ETCS 197s sitting around gathering dust/damp. That is assuming they are all/mostly built ? - because I noticed mention up thread of what might be a delivery.
It would also mean the retiring 150s might last a bit longer (if needed).

 

[Rhydgaled]

With TfW generally facing a unit shortage as the 150s reach the end of their days I wonder if using all the 197s makes sense until the 398s cause the expected moves (of 231s & 756s) and then the ETCS 197s can go onto Cambrian Coast/Main.
Would the life left in the 158s force that move ?.

I understand that the TfW 158s are leased until 30/04/2027 (so 2 years away yet). I'm not aware of any other TOCs currently having concrete plans to withdraw 158s/159s and there's at least one topic in the speculative section regarding possible new homes for the TfW class 158s so they should have plenty of life left in them.

 

[sd0733]

It would also mean the retiring 150s might last a bit longer (if needed).

The 150s are now spreading their wings again with some booked workings well off the valleys on previously 153 diagrams. The 153 fleet has rapidly shrunk to barely above single figures at the moment. All the /9s are now at Landore stood down and some of the 'permanent' fleet are now at Landore for forming into their new 'AT0x' formations as a 153/3 and a 153/5.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 150s are now spreading their wings again with some booked workings well off the valleys on previously 153 diagrams. The 153 fleet has rapidly shrunk to barely above single figures at the moment. All the /9s are now at Landore stood down and some of the 'permanent' fleet are now at Landore for forming into their new 'AT0x' formations as a 153/3 and a 153/5.

If the last Crewe/Cardiff trains will now be 197s, meaning that HOWL becomes the only route for cycling the 153s, does this mean that the active travel sets will also work the Shrewsbury-Crewe stoppers?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

The 150s are now spreading their wings again with some booked workings well off the valleys on previously 153 diagrams. The 153 fleet has rapidly shrunk to barely above single figures at the moment. All the /9s are now at Landore stood down and some of the 'permanent' fleet are now at Landore for forming into their new 'AT0x' formations as a 153/3 and a 153/5.

What is a "AT0x formation" please?

 

[MP393]

What is a "AT0x formation" please?

“Active Travel” unit numbers. They’ve been given AT0x numbers on the front of them for their formation. 153552 is AT04 carrying that number on the front.

If the last Crewe/Cardiff trains will now be 197s, meaning that HOWL becomes the only route for cycling the 153s, does this mean that the active travel sets will also work the Shrewsbury-Crewe stoppers?

Yes I believe that is the case they will be working the Crewe Shrewsbury stoppers as well as the HoWL for the reasons you say above, to cycle them to Crewe for maintenance.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

“Active Travel” unit numbers. They’ve been given AT0x numbers on the front of them for their formation. 153552 is AT04 carrying that number on the front.



Yes I believe that is the case they will be working the Crewe Shrewsbury stoppers as well as the HoWL for the reasons you say above, to cycle them to Crewe for maintenance.

So are they carrying the 153/5 no. and the AT0x number?

 

[MP393]

So are they carrying the 153/5 no. and the AT0x number?

Yes, there is a picture on one of the Class 150 etc groups on Facebook on 153552 at Craven Arms on 10/03, it’s got both numbers on the front.

 

[40029 Saxonia]

197029 was on the Bidston diagram today. This means that all 197/0s that have been in service (including the 7 Cambrian ones - 03/28-31/33/34) have worked the Bidston route.

 

[sd0733]

So are they carrying the 153/5 no. and the AT0x number?

On internal systems 153303, 153331/531, 153352/552 and 153382 no longer show.

They are shown as AT03 which is now formed of 52331 and 52303 and AT04 which is formed of 57352 and 57382.

153312 is now also at Landore so presumably will become part of AT01 or AT02.

RTT is also picking up the AT designation with AT04 working alongside a 150 on this earlier today showing https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17228/2025-04-07/detailed#allox_id=1

 

[45076]

It was 197037. Due to be delivered to Crewe depot (ATC) sometime this coming week. I saw it on the M5 heading North as I was travelling south.

Thank you Jacob

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197037 ex Donnington https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R62883/2025-04-08/detailed

Realtime Trains | 4G97 0626 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft | 08/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 4G97 0626 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft on 08/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

66554 taking 197037 to Crewe depot today.

Do we know how many 197s are left to be delivered from the factory please?

 

[childwallblues]

197029 was on the Bidston diagram today. This means that all 197/0s that have been in service (including the 7 Cambrian ones - 03/28-31/33/34) have worked the Bidston route.

197029 was on the 0542 Chester to Lime Street and 0646 return this morning.

 

[nigelsporne]

Well the 197 trips to Brum don't appear to have lasted very long!

 

[craigybagel]

Well the 197 trips to Brum don't appear to have lasted very long!

There's not a lot of work they can do down there that doesn't interwork with 158s at some point. They were doing more when the Cambrian was blocked but now that it's back open, it's always going to be limited for now.

 

[tfw756rider]

Seeing as the Cambrian recently reopened, does anyone in here know when any 197 Cambrian driver training (other than that for a small amount of instructors that @craigybagel mentioned) is planned to start? It surely must be soon, if entry to service is supposed to be in early 2026.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197026 5Q59 from Crewe depot this afternoon.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Will all units soon be in service?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Will all units soon be in service?

How long is a piece of string...we've still got units at Crewe kicking around doing nothing.

 

[tfw756rider]

Will all units soon be in service?

Still 14 left to enter service (currently only 63 of the 77 are in service, comprising all 56 non-ETCS units and 7 of the 21 ETCS-fitted units).

I'm under the impression that at least a few of the remaining 14 will be entering service soon, but I'm not sure about that, so if anyone knows about that and can tell us, it would be much appreciated

 

[Lurcheroo]

Seeing as the Cambrian recently reopened, does anyone in here know when any 197 Cambrian driver training (other than that for a small amount of instructors that @craigybagel mentioned) is planned to start? It surely must be soon, if entry to service is supposed to be in early 2026.

No training is booked as of yet.

 

[craigybagel]

Seeing as the Cambrian recently reopened, does anyone in here know when any 197 Cambrian driver training (other than that for a small amount of instructors that @craigybagel mentioned) is planned to start? It surely must be soon, if entry to service is supposed to be in early 2026.

Not to sound blasé, but it's only a 5 day course for drivers and 2 for guards, and there aren't all that many of them to get through at Mach & Pwllheli.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not to sound blasé, but it's only a 5 day course for drivers and 2 for guards, and there aren't all that many of them to get through at Mach & Pwllheli.

That's a good thing then, right, in terms of getting everyone trained up. Sounds like it won't be too much of a lengthy job.

 

[tfw756rider]

No training is booked as of yet.

Thanks Do you (or craigybagel or anyone else in here) know when (or when abouts) it might start to be booked? (If it's not something you can tell me even if you know, I understand)

Not to sound blasé, but it's only a 5 day course for drivers and 2 for guards, and there aren't all that many of them to get through at Mach & Pwllheli.

No it's fine, thanks for the info

That's a good thing then, right, in terms of getting everyone trained up. Sounds like it won't be too much of a lengthy job.

Yeah exactly

====================

Strange Public Address (PA) / Passenger Information System (PIS) happenings onboard 197014 (the unit that 197006 coupled to at Carmarthen on 1W16 0701 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly) today, Wed 16/4/25.

Between Carmarthen and Swansea, the PIS of 197014 (rear unit) wasn't working (screens black, silent), but it was working in 197006 (front unit), but the manual PA still worked in 197014.

From Swansea onwards, the PIS is working in both units, but with a good second's worth of delay between the start of the announcements in 197014 (front unit) and 197006 (rear unit).

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks Do you (or craigybagel or anyone else in here) know when (or when abouts) it might start to be booked? (If it's not something you can tell me even if you know, I understand)

No idea on a date I'm afraid. You don't want to go do it too early though as you want to have the training fresh in your mind when you do actually drive one in service - and this is expressly true for the Cambrian crews who are going through a bigger transition from 158s than the rest of us who signed 175s as well.

====================

Strange Public Address (PA) / Passenger Information System (PIS) happenings onboard 197014 (the unit that 197006 coupled to at Carmarthen on 1W16 0701 Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly) today, Wed 16/4/25.

Between Carmarthen and Swansea, the PIS of 197014 (rear unit) wasn't working (screens black, silent), but it was working in 197006 (front unit), but the manual PA still worked in 197014.

From Swansea onwards, the PIS is working in both units, but with a good second's worth of delay between the start of the announcements in 197014 (front unit) and 197006 (rear unit).

They seem to act in strange ways when you couple to a unit that's already in service and has it's PIS running. When the driver changed ends at Swansea and set up the cab, they'll have entered the headcode into the PIS in the previously trailing unit as part of the process and that tends to get everything working again.

The time delay is perfectly normal for units in multiple.

 

[tfw756rider]

No idea on a date I'm afraid. You don't want to go do it too early though as you want to have the training fresh in your mind when you do actually drive one in service - and this is expressly true for the Cambrian crews who are going through a bigger transition from 158s than the rest of us who signed 175s as well.

They seem to act in strange ways when you couple to a unit that's already in service and has it's PIS running. When the driver changed ends at Swansea and set up the cab, they'll have entered the headcode into the PIS in the previously trailing unit as part of the process and that tends to get everything working again.

The time delay is perfectly normal for units in multiple.

Thanks, and a good point you made there

 

[Trainman40083]

Noticed a 3 car TfW Class 197 on Central Rivers depot today. I guess it is there for Alstom attention

 

[sd0733]

Noticed a 3 car TfW Class 197 on Central Rivers depot today. I guess it is there for Alstom attention

They're using the lathe there for tyre turning.

 

[tfw756rider]

Noticed a 3 car TfW Class 197 on Central Rivers depot today. I guess it is there for Alstom attention

The 197s are CAF products, not Alstom.

They're using the lathe there for tyre turning.

Exactly!