CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Caaardiff]

The 197s are CAF products, not Alstom.

Isn't Central Rivers an Alstom Depot?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Isn't Central Rivers an Alstom Depot?

Yes but the 197s go there for tyre turning on the wheel lathe.

 

[craigybagel]

Central Rivers has the spare capacity with Avanti no longer using it, and it's lathe is a state of the art facility.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Central Rivers has the spare capacity with Avanti no longer using it, and it's lathe is a state of the art facility.

We have one at Crewe depot but it's broken.

 

[Caaardiff]

197s go for tyre turns at Crewe Electric Depot, Central Rivers and Tyseley currently.
They'll probably all be done at Holyhead when that opens.

 

[Geeves]

197s go for tyre turns at Crewe Electric Depot, Central Rivers and Tyseley currently.
They'll probably all be done at Holyhead when that opens.

One came to Newton Heath too!

 

[Jez]

Is there a reason the 197s that split at Swansea do so a long way up the platform? I notice today after alighting a train that was about to split to go onwards to West Wales any passengers joining at Swansea had a very long walk to get onto the train. After the train departed for the West, the remaining 3 car 197 then moved up the platform as the Pembroke Dock was due in behind it, to avoid people having to walk too far i assume.

Ive noticed the last few times at Swansea they are getting very good at making manual announcements with whats happening - advising people that the front two carriages are for West Wales or that all 5 carriages are going to Manchester for example.

 

[DelW]

Is there a reason the 197s that split at Swansea do so a long way up the platform? I notice today after alighting a train that was about to split to go onwards to West Wales any passengers joining at Swansea had a very long walk to get onto the train. After the train departed for the West, the remaining 3 car 197 then moved up the platform as the Pembroke Dock was due in behind it, to avoid people having to walk too far i assume.

Maybe to do with track curvature? IIRC the outer ends of Swansea platforms are relatively straight, while the buffer stop ends are on quite a curve. Maybe it's problematic to release the couplers on a curve?

 

[Jez]

Maybe to do with track curvature? IIRC the outer ends of Swansea platforms are relatively straight, while the buffer stop ends are on quite a curve. Maybe it's problematic to release the couplers on a curve?

I was thinking that when i was looking today. It is on a curve as you get close to the buffers.

Does anyone know where 197033 is. After getting 197034 today it is now the only 197 in service that i havent been on.

 

[Russel]

As much as I liked the 197s when first introduced, I've used a few recently and noticed a couple of common complaints, the white plastic moulding around the windows doesn't look very hard wearing as it's starting to look very dirty where people rest their arms on it and also, a couple of units I used yesterday had more rattles than a 10 year old Enviro400 bus.

 

[vicbury]

As much as I liked the 197s when first introduced, I've used a few recently and noticed a couple of common complaints, the white plastic moulding around the windows doesn't look very hard wearing as it's starting to look very dirty where people rest their arms on it and also, a couple of units I used yesterday had more rattles than a 10 year old Enviro400 bus.

Some of them look like they haven't been cleaned inside for ten years despite only being a few months or years old. I've been on units with things sprayed on the ceilings, on the overhead luggage racks, filthy window sills as you say, grease, sticky residue and fingerprints all over the windows and tables etc. CrossCountry's unrefurbished Turbostars genuinely feel cleaner at times.

 

[Russel]

Some of them look like they haven't been cleaned inside for ten years despite only being a few months or years old. I've been on units with things sprayed on the ceilings, on the overhead luggage racks, filthy window sills as you say, grease, sticky residue and fingerprints all over the windows and tables etc. CrossCountry's unrefurbished Turbostars genuinely feel cleaner at times.

It's a shame because they have the potential to be a decent train, I can happily spend a couple of hours one one.

Also noticed quite a few of the passenger info screens look to be developing dark patches possibly from people hitting them with luggage or elbows etc...

I'd like to think it's just a side effect of how hard the fleet is being worked at the moment and that things may improve as things settle down, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Only one more 197 to come through the system now I've been told. No idea when however.

 

[60159]

Only one more 197 to come through the system now I've been told. No idea when however.

Do you mean leave the factory?
I thought there were around 6 that hadn’t reached Crewe. Are some at Donnington?

 

[Russel]

By the time these are all in service, the early ones will be ready for a refurb!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Do you mean leave the factory?
I thought there were around 6 that hadn’t reached Crewe. Are some at Donnington?

None at Donnington as far as I'm aware.

 

[Jez]

Is there any news on more 197s coming into service? Its been a while now since the last one did.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197026 and 197037 at Crewe depot at the moment. We have 197117 as well but that isn't a new one.

 

[vicbury]

How is everyone finding the temperature control on the 197s this year? I havent noticed any issues of late and 197123 was very pleasant in the 28° heat earlier. A stark contrast to the sweltering 166 I changed from

 

[WirralLine]

How is everyone finding the temperature control on the 197s this year? I havent noticed any issues of late and 197123 was very pleasant in the 28° heat earlier. A stark contrast to the sweltering 166 I changed from

Still very hit and miss. I was on an absolutely sweltering one the other day. Outside temp showing as 29c and inside tempt showing as 26c, they're only setup to keep 3c below outside temp apparently.

Still cooler than the 158 I had on the return though!

 

[60159]

None at Donnington as far as I'm aware.

Thanks.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's a shame because they have the potential to be a decent train

That may well have been the case if they'd been built 15 years ago or so, but not now. Any passenger multiple unit built new for the UK since about 2015 that is not capable electric operation through a pantograph (or at least the option to add it easily later in life) cannot be considered a decent train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still very hit and miss. I was on an absolutely sweltering one the other day. Outside temp showing as 29c and inside tempt showing as 26c, they're only setup to keep 3c below outside temp apparently.

Still cooler than the 158 I had on the return though!

Northern's 195s are like a fridge on a hot day so I think this is just a failure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does anyone know which ETCS 197s have been in use please ?.
Also which ones, more recently, are still in use ?.

The last I know it was seven of them - 197003, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033 & 197034

 

[40029 Saxonia]

Do you mean leave the factory?
I thought there were around 6 that hadn’t reached Crewe. Are some at Donnington?

Searching back through this forum I can't find any reference to the following having been seen yet;
197025
197032
197038-41
Total 6

The units seen but not yet in service are;
197022-24
197026-27
196035-37
Total 8

Is there a definitive list of where they are? 024 and 035 were reported at Holyhead but that's a while ago now. 026 & 037 were reported at Crewe in a recent post

 

[WirralLine]

Northern's 195s are like a fridge on a hot day so I think this is just a failure.

The 197s are never fridge like (except in winter if the driver has forgot to turn the saloon HVAC on altogether). TfW themselves say the system is designed to keep the saloon around 3c below outside temperature and can't turn it lower as it could result in "thermal shock" - even though other stock such as the 175s (or Northern 195s as you mention) are significantly cooler than outside on a hot day.

 

[Cambrian359]

The 197s are never fridge like (except in winter if the driver has forgot to turn the saloon HVAC on altogether). TfW themselves say the system is designed to keep the saloon around 3c below outside temperature and can't turn it lower as it could result in "thermal shock" - even though other stock such as the 175s (or Northern 195s as you mention) are significantly cooler than outside on a hot day.

Did they say if they meant thermal shock to the passengers or thermal shock to the internal materials of the train?
I realise it might sound a daft question as the trains construction materials don’t walk on and off the trains like passengers but as the air can flow in and out it seems reasonable to ask!

 

[tfw756rider]

Does anyone know which ETCS 197s have been in use please ?.
Also which ones, more recently, are still in use ?.

The last I know it was seven of them - 197003, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033 & 197034

(I'm only answering for "have been in service") - I believe it still is only those 7 ETCS-fitted 197s (197003, 197028, 197029, 197030, 197031, 197033 & 197034) that have been in service so far.

(Plus all 56 non-ETCS 197s - 197001-197002, 197004-197021, 197042-197051, 197101-197112/197113-197126).

This leaves 14 197s that are still to enter service, all of which are ETCS-fitted units (197022-197027, 197032 and 197035-041).

Therefore, no more 197s (neither ETCS-fitted nor non-ETCS) have first entered service since you last asked nearly a month ago on the 6/4/25 - actually no more since 197029 entered service on the 22/2/25, which is over two (!) months ago.

(By the way, how appropriate that my 197th post is about 197s )

 

[Jez]

That is really bad news if they can only go 3c below the outside temperature. What if we have days where it hits 30c plus?

That list of 197s that have been in service looks correct. I dont know where 197033 is however, ive not seen it for a while and its the only 197 of those in service that i havent yet been on.

 

[Russel]

That may well have been the case if they'd been built 15 years ago or so, but not now. Any passenger multiple unit built new for the UK since about 2015 that is not capable electric operation through a pantograph (or at least the option to add it easily later in life) cannot be considered a decent train.

From a passenger point of view though, how the train is powered is largely irrelevant, passengers want a train that turns up on time and has seating available.

And realistically, a lot of the diesel routes the 197s operate on, North Wales Coast, Cambrian, Marches etc are all 20+ years away from being wired, if ever...