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First Rail Stirling (Lumo) Rolling Stock

YorkshireBear

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The trains are privately owned by a Rosco, if you owned them and Lumo said we want them for X years and prepared to pay £Y, then MML come along and say can we have them for an unknown number of weeks (at a price which might not match £Y) which offer would you take.

If MML loses them due to its failure to put replacements into service, has to take the blame (even if ultimately was a bad decision 6 years ago to get new design train)
I agree with the logic in an purely private industry, but it isn't and I do not believe that an entire service group should be at the will of a ROSCO, that isn't how the rail industry should work.
 
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BlueLeanie

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They are fitted with Stadlers own multiple working system.
So the Stadler built Mk5s and the Stadler built 93s both have a Stadler multiple working system?

If the 22Xs aren't available, the freight operator of the 93s has a licence to use the electricity around Crewe, it seems a perfectly sensible option.

It's bound to be a soft launch anyway, with an initial one service in each direction daily.
 

Snow1964

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I agree with the logic in an purely private industry, but it isn't and I do not believe that an entire service group should be at the will of a ROSCO, that isn't how the rail industry should work.
They are not at will of a Rosco, they had extension option, which they took, but made bad call on how long they were prepared to continue paying.
There are two sides to this. If MML couldn't or wouldn't commit to continue leasing them beyond an agreed end date, it's only reasonable for Rosco (which is a private industry) to consider others that are prepared to commit to few years.

But I agree the industry is not working properly (but not because of the structure, it is failing to keep to stock changeover dates it has determined)
 

Davester50

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Can't have been many opportunities to take an HST service from Stirling to Motherwell. When would have been the last time you could take an HST from Carlisle down the wcml to Euston?
Day Mark 3s have done it plenty times in the past on the Clansman, although it wasn't an HST.
 

Clarence Yard

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Right, I am getting very fed up with this.

It’s cl.222 sets and arrangements for the first one to be released are well in hand.

No other stock is going to be used to start the service. You can forget about 93’s, 350/2’s, HST’s, Deltics, Tornado, any type of Wickham trolley or anything else you might think of.

There is no plan B. There will remain no plan B until the first of the new 80x appears (hopefully) in late 2027.
 

800001

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Philip Haigh from Modern Railways had tweeted that First Group have secured 5 x 6 car 222s for the Stirling service to start mid 2026c tweet attached below.

First Group says it will use five six-car Class 222 diesel trains on its new open access London-Stirling service running on the West Coast Main Line. It says it will consider electric or bi-mode stock if it secures a track access deal beyond 2030.
 

Iskra

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It will be interesting to see where the remaining 222’s end up then, and what Scotrail do about their HST’s. Hopefully the remaining 222’s can strengthen XC.
 

Bletchleyite

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It will be interesting to see where the remaining 222’s end up then, and what Scotrail do about their HST’s. Hopefully the remaining 222’s can strengthen XC.

Also the spare coaches.

I guess 6 car 222 has a similar capacity to 5 car 80x due to the shorter vehicles and inefficient layout? Though I can't help but think short trains on the congested WCML are not a good thing.
 

scotraildriver

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It will be interesting to see where the remaining 222’s end up then, and what Scotrail do about their HST’s. Hopefully the remaining 222’s can strengthen XC.
The rest are going to ScotRail. It's the worst kept secret going, we've already got the traction manuals at the training school and work to ready some depots is underway.
 

fgwrich

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I’m not surprised, at a meeting last week a pictogram of a 222 in Lumo livery had appeared.

(Image of a number of Lumo staff and stakeholders, Scottish MSP Fulton MacGregor and a banner of Lumo’s Stirling route with 222 and Stirling Castle)
 

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Iskra

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The rest are going to ScotRail. It's the worst kept secret going, we've already got the traction manuals at the training school and work to ready some depots is underway.
Thanks. I know it has been rumoured for years, and it is in many ways logical, but you are first person to unofficially comfirm it!
 

800001

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The Scotsman newspaper now got an article on about this
Also attached is a picture from the article showing a 222 in Lumo livery.
Passengers will travel in five class 222 six-carriage trains which will also call at Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes and London Euston.
 

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Iskra

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I’m not surprised, at a meeting last week a pictogram of a 222 in Lumo livery had appeared.

(Image of a number of Lumo staff and stakeholders, Scottish MSP Fulton MacGregor and a banner of Lumo’s Stirling route with 222 and Stirling Castle)
That livery looks good on the 222 :)
 

hux385

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Hopefully this means that EMR get their 810s nice and quickly as a result of this timescale. I assume the 7 cars will each lose a carriage, with one 5 car gaining a carriage from the spares, leaving a total of 3 spare carriages left oved ???

So does this mean that ScotRail will get a combination of 5 and 6 car trains? I suppose that is a seperate discussion...
 

Bletchleyite

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That livery looks good on the 222 :)

Yeah, they've been progressively adding decoration to the original rather boring livery, those stripes would look good on the 80x too.

I assume they're going to reseat them to a high density Standard only layout?

Maybe time they stopped going on about their all electric fleet though :D
 

Iskra

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Yeah, they've been progressively adding decoration to the original rather boring livery, those stripes would look good on the 80x too.

I assume they're going to reseat them to a high density Standard only layout?

Maybe time they stopped going on about their all electric fleet though :D
Well they are Diesel Electrics;)
 

Railperf

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Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.
 

whoosh

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Yeah, they've been progressively adding decoration to the original rather boring livery, those stripes would look good on the 80x too.

I assume they're going to reseat them to a high density Standard only layout?

Maybe time they stopped going on about their all electric fleet though :D

With the seats from the 3 cars left over?
Now left as empty shells?!
 

YorkshireBear

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Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.
I believe they have bought some Hitachi units for these services. But they won't be ready in time.
 

whoosh

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Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.
221s even heavier with all the tilting equipment, and use even more dirty diesel fuel.
220s and 221s stink of cooking toilets (exhaust pipe stack runs next to toilet retention tank), so if I was a new company starting up a service I'd steer well clear.
222s are a good train and do not have this design error.
 

Bletchleyite

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With the seats from the 3 cars left over?
Now left as empty shells?!

The seats they come with are quite thick-backed, so it wouldn't surprise me if they replaced them with new thinner-backed ones like their 80x. It would probably be enough extra space, combined with removing tables, to get one more row (or even maybe two) in per vehicle.

I believe they have bought some Hitachi units for these services. But they won't be ready in time.

...or if they're temporary pending a Hitachi order maybe not! :)
 

AJDesiro

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Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.
I seem to recall reading in the 805/807 thread that the voyager EPS differential was to remain, and instead that MU speeds won't exist where the voyager differential currently does.

With the seats from the 3 cars left over?
Now left as empty shells?!
Would it not be a better idea to reseat them with the transcal seats in the 803s? The thinner seat backs mean you'd be able to cram even more seats in, alongside keeping a consistent passenger experience with the ECML service.
 

800001

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I believe they have bought some Hitachi units for these services. But they won't be ready in time.
They have not bought the units yet for this service.
The units purchased are for Lumo East coast and Hull trains, however they have the option to increase the order.

They state in the articles above quite clearly that they only have rights for this Stirling service up until 2030, however, if they can gain an extension to this, then they will utilise there option for more trains and purchase new ones for this route
 

Brubulus

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The seats they come with are quite thick-backed, so it wouldn't surprise me if they replaced them with new thinner-backed ones like their 80x. It would probably be enough extra space, combined with removing tables, to get one more row (or even maybe two) in per vehicle.



...or if they're temporary pending a Hitachi order maybe not! :)
Even with this, a 6 car 222 will have substantially less seats than a 5 car 80x, with the 803s having around 400 seats vs 340 in the 222s
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Ridiculous decision to use 222's . Worst case these should have been 221's as these have tilt ability for the northern end of the WCML - despite losing the 221 EPS limits south of Weaver Jn. Avanti replace the 221's to go cleaner electric and ORR allow more diesels under the wires. A poor decision environmentally. Should have insisted Lumo purchase suitable bi- mode stock to reduce diesel running under the wires. Of course this decision probably reflects the fact that power supplies are not strong enough and buys time to do the necessary OLE upgrades. Still a lack of joined up thinking on our railway.
North of Crewe is essentially to be considered as not electrified as far as any new services, trains etc. There is simply not enough electric power available in the infrastructure at key locations, therefore it is essentially limited to diesel or some future battery technology.

Similar happened on the top end of the East Coast Mainline.

It will undoubtedly abstract passengers from road services, either cars or coaches, so environment benefits are still substantial.
 

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