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Southern Only tickets and Gatwick Express

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Aictos

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I'm sorry to drag this up BUT as far as I am concerned, the Gatwick Express is a Southern operated service so a ticket marked Southern Only ought to be valid on any Gatwick Express service right?

I would like to know if there is any differences in using the Gatwick Express or using the standard Southern services on such a ticket vs getting a more expensive Any Permitted ticket?

Any help would be appreciated :)
 
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yorkie

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I'm sorry to drag this up BUT as far as I am concerned, the Gatwick Express is a Southern operated service so a ticket marked Southern Only ought to be valid on any Gatwick Express service right?
That's certainly my interpretation. I am aware that interpretation is not universally held.

However I am aware of around 15 forum members who have used Southern Only tickets back in the days when on-board inspections were done. Of those, 3 were asked to pay an excess fare (I can't remember the amount, about £6 maybe). All 3 wrote to Southern and a full refund was provided by Southern on all occasions.
I would like to know if there is any differences in using the Gatwick Express or using the standard Southern services on such a ticket vs getting a more expensive Any Permitted ticket?
Sorry I do not understand the question, however if you are asking what would happen in the event of an on-board ticket inspection with a ticket that is stated on Southern services, on a train that is operated by Southern but is branded Gatwick Express, it would depend on the inspector and how good you are at convincing them.

NRCoC states that tickets can be restricted to a particular Train Company.

Gatwick Express ceased to be a Train Company in 2008, and is no longer a Train Company (DfT statement here).

List of current Train Companies: http://www.atoc.org/train-companies (this is the definitive list)

Companies House lists the only Company of the name Gatwick Express to be owned by National Express Group and ceased trading in 2008.

However I'll pre-empt HHF by stating that some people claim that Gatwick Express is a Train Company "for the purpose of ticketing". However, a legal expert was consulted as to whether or not a Company can exist merely for the purpose of ticketing, and the answer, unsurprisingly was that it was rather unlikely. For example, I could say that for the purposes of this conversation, HLE 13 Railways is a Train Company, but that wouldn't actually make it the case.

By the way, it is my understanding that Southern are not to blame for the mess of the Gatwick - London ticketing and that the blame lies with the DfT. The confusing array of tickets to numerous London termini is ridiculed in the media from time to time. I expect it will all go away when the new integrated franchise comes into existence, though that will probably mean the lowest fares will rise considerably.
 

soil

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Surely they could route their tickets

'Southern only, not GTW EXP'?
 

ainsworth74

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I'm not sure there's room for that, fourteen characters is the limit I think.
 

yorkie

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Surely they could route their tickets

'Southern only, not GTW EXP'?
But that would not, in my opinion, conform with the NRCoC.

The NRCoC would need to be altered to allow TOCs to restrict access to (and from) brand names.

It could set a dangerous precedent, for example if WAGN had wanted people not to take the Cambridge Cruiser, "WAGN NOT CBGCR", or if NXEA decided to bar people from the Stansted Express, "NXEA NOT SSDEX" would be absolutely awful restrictions that would not make sense to the average customer.

TOC specific restrictions are complicated enough without allowing TOCs to restrict brand names too.
 

benk1342

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I know this has been brought up many times, and we have all chimed in many times. But I don't entirely agree with Yorkie's interpretation.

A contract can contain definitions that differ from the normal, everyday definitions of words. Your contract with the carrier is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage 10(a) states that the validity of a ticket may be restricted to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. The term "Train Company" is defined at Appendix A, which states that a list of the companies can be found at Appendix C. Appendix C includes "Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)". It also includes, as a separate entry, "Souther Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express)".

Therefore, for the purposes of interpretation of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which is the contract that sets the terms of your use of the railways, "Southern Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express)" is a distinct Train Company from "Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)". Whether this is true according to the DfT or Companies House is immaterial; what matters is how the term is defined in the contract.

Under the terms of the contract, therefore, your Southern Only ticket limits you to travel in the trains of the Train Company "Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)".
 

ralphchadkirk

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The DfT have stated clearly in an FOI request that they believe Southern to be acting legally and correctly in not allowing Southern Only tickets on Gatwick Express (pdf available on request).
I also agree fully with benk1342's post.
 

Mojo

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Although information to this may be slightly muddled by the fact the GEx website says on every page ''Gatwick Express is operated by Southern,'' and Gatwick Express appears on the Southern route map as a Southern service.
 

34D

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Under the terms of the contract, therefore, your Southern Only ticket limits you to travel in the trains of the Train Company "Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)".

So does that mean that a 'southern' ticket would be valid to travel on the southern trans pennine line (cleethorpes-sheffield-manchester) as that is First TP express trading as southern trans pennine, and not First TP express trading as north transpennine?
 

ralphchadkirk

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So does that mean that a 'southern' ticket would be valid to travel on the southern trans pennine line (cleethorpes-sheffield-manchester) as that is First TP express trading as southern trans pennine, and not First TP express trading as north transpennine?

I cannot see "Southern Transpennine" (or "North Transpennine") anywhere on Appendix C of the NRCOC.

In any case "Southern Transpennine" is different from "Southern" so your example is incorrect.
 

Aictos

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On Tribute, the only options for staff is Not Gatwick Express and Any Permitted - been told Gatwick Express tickets can only be brought directly from them!
 

Mojo

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On Tribute, the only options for staff is Not Gatwick Express and Any Permitted - been told Gatwick Express tickets can only be brought directly from them!

I fear there is a bit of confusion here. The tickets Southern intend you purchase if you wish to travel on their Gatwick Express services is the 'Any Permitted.'
 

soil

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As Benk132 says,

"The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies"

(NRCOC s. 10)

'Train Company' is capitalized, so we expect to find a definition for it in the document.

And indeed there is, in the introduction.

"There is a list of the Train Companies in Appendix C. "

The full list, taken from Appendix C:

Arriva Trains Wales
c2c
Chiltern
CrossCountry
East Coast
East Midlands Trains
First Capital Connect
First Great Western
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Heathrow Connect (on services towards or from Heathrow Airport, between Hayes & Harlington and London Paddington ONLY)
Hull Trains
Island Line
London Midland
London Overground
Merseyrail
National Express East Anglia
Northern Rail
Scotrail
Southeastern
Southern
South West Trains
Stansted Express
TransPennine Express
Virgin Trains

If you have a legal document/contract, and it says something like

'This contract is made between the Customer and the Vendor'

then you expect that 'Customer' and 'Vendor' might have a special meaning because they are capitalized, and you would look for a definition in the contract somewhere, and you would be aware on seeing that capital 'C' and 'V' that that definition might not be the normal plain English language definition of customer and vendor, so you should take care to read the contract's definition rather than putting your own gloss on those words.

Likewise here, by the normal definition, Gatwick Express is NOT a 'train company'. It is however very clearly a 'Train Company' within the meaning of the contract under which we travel on the trains.

'Train Company' is used 100 times each in the NRCOC, while 'train company' does not appear once. 'Train Company' is not a proper noun so it's abundantly clear that 'Train Company' has special meaning, which is defined in Appendix C and which clearly distinguishes 'Southern' from 'Gatwick Express'. They would not have gone to the trouble of defining Train Company so clearly and distinguishing Train Company from a mere train company had they not intended to make this distinction.

It's entirely standard to give terms special meaning in contracts, and when marked either with capitals or as in this insurance contract: http://www.axainsurance.com/car/policy-wording/2_1_75_CarPolicyWording.pdf with bold/colouring, you MUST use the contract's definition, not some alternate definition that suits your purposes better.
 

MikeWh

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Why is it whenever people try to justify Southern's position using the NRCOC they conveniently abbreviate the definition of a train company? Here it is in full:
NRCOC said:
(q) “Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is only one company granted a passenger licence by the ORR, and that is Southern Railway Limited. There is no further definition of company so we have to resort to the legal definition which is that which requires registration at Companies House and submission of accounts etc. There is only one company running trains branded as both Southern and Gatwick Express. Therefore tickets restricted to that company (holding a passenger licence ...) must be valid on any of their trains.
 

maniacmartin

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I'm quoting from NRCOC "From 20th May 2012" edition, which I believe is the latest. The wordings have changed subtly in different editions

The NRCOC also talks of "the Passenger Licence granted to each Train Company by the Office of Rail Regulation" (implying one license equals one train company, thus GatEx and Southern are one and the same). [Pre-post edit: MikeWh beat me to it]

From Appendix A(emphasis mine)
(u) “Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more than one of these Companies;

From Appendix C:
Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)
Southern Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express)
Note here that the registered company name is listed first, and the brand name is in brackets, not the other way round. DfT have replied regarding Appendix C, that the brand names are only mentioned to make it clearer to passengers who are not familiar with the franchises which company uses which brand. They are no longer listed in the format soil has given
 

benk1342

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So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is only one company granted a passenger licence by the ORR, and that is Southern Railway Limited. There is no further definition of company so we have to resort to the legal definition which is that which requires registration at Companies House and submission of accounts etc. There is only one company running trains branded as both Southern and Gatwick Express. Therefore tickets restricted to that company (holding a passenger licence ...) must be valid on any of their trains.

I disagree. The passage you quoted says "A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C". That sentence expands the definition of Train Company to include those entities listed in Appendix C. There is no other way to give meaning to that sentence.
 

benk1342

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And Southern Railway Limited is listed twice in Appendix C

Yes, once as Southern and once as Gatwick Express. What you, the DfT, or anyone else knows to be true about who has a licence to do what in the real world is immaterial. All that matters is what it says on the face of the contract. And what it says on the face of the contract is that Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern) is a Train Company, and that Southern Railway Limited (trading as Gatwick Express) is a separate Train Company.

A contract can define red to mean blue. It doesn't matter that in the real world red means red and blue means blue. For the purposes of interpreting the contract, red means blue.
 

DaveNewcastle

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In further support of MikeWh's analysis, not only is there only one Company granted a Licence by the ORR for these services, there is also only the one Company which is a signatory to the Ticketing Settlement Agreement. That is Southern Railways Ltd.

As for soil's rather elaborate analysis of the words used, and the suggestion that a capitalised Train Company is intended to be some distinct category of entity, largely by virtue of the capital letters, I have to say that I would almost be persuaded that this approach could be applied (as it is in other contexts) . . . . if it wasn't for one fact. . . .
The word "Company" has such a precise meaning, is in such wide useage, in so many fields and contexts, with a robust definition, even in the face of regular attempts to undermine that meaning, that it beggars belief that anyone should ever be expected to read down a legal document containing the word "Company" and not come to the same conclusion as I do: that a Company is a Company is a Company.
Capital letters and a preceeding word of Railway or Train do not reduce the power of that word's robust meaning.
No legislator would re-use such a well respected term as "Company" in a 'red is blue' document. Never.

If you want to look at the difficulty legislators do have when they really do want to tinker with the meaning of the word 'Company', then look at how long it's taking to introduce some of the changes of the 2006 Companies Act - they're still being debated.
 

benk1342

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In further support of MikeWh's analysis, not only is there only one Company granted a Licence by the ORR for these services, there is also only the one which is a signatory to the Ticketing Settlement Agreement. That is Southern Railways Ltd.

That may be true, but one can only know this by looking at information outside the "four corners" of the contract. When interpreting a contract you don't get to do that.

Regardless of capitalisation, Train Company (or train company, it doesn't matter) has a specific meaning in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. What it means in everyday life doesn't matter---all that matters is the definition provided in the contract.
 

maniacmartin

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That may be true, but one can only know this by looking at information outside the "four corners" of the contract. When interpreting a contract you don't get to do that.

I think its reasonable to consult the ORR sources when the NRCOC refers to ORR licensing; just like its the ticket restriction codes are not listed in the contract either
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . Train Company . . . has a specific meaning in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. What it means in everyday life doesn't matter---all that matters is the definition provided in the contract.
As you will realise from my post (to which you were replying) I am unable to agree with you.
I can't immediately recall an authority to substantiate my view that 'Company' is a terms with an inalienable meaning, and I will conceed that it can be used in more flexible senses (usually as an adjective) in terms such as 'Company Car', 'Company Pension Scheme' or 'on Company Business'. But I will consider any attempt to redefine 'Company' as if to create an alternative meaning is equivalent to attempts to redefine 'Employee' such that Employer-Employee relations might be re-defined. Such attempts have failed.

I'll say no more on this thread unless any new material comes to light.
 
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soil

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Why is it whenever people try to justify Southern's position using the NRCOC they conveniently abbreviate the definition of a train company? Here it is in full:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is only one company granted a passenger licence by the ORR, and that is Southern Railway Limited. There is no further definition of company so we have to resort to the legal definition which is that which requires registration at Companies House and submission of accounts etc. There is only one company running trains branded as both Southern and Gatwick Express. Therefore tickets restricted to that company (holding a passenger licence ...) must be valid on any of their trains.


You could rephrase their actual definition

"Train Company means a company operating passenger railway services which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation."

as
"Train Company means a company operating passenger railway services with a Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets."

In this case the intent would be abundantly clear that a 'Train Company is a company with a Passenger Licence granted to it.', which is the definition relied upon by MikeWh et al.

However they have not phrased it thus.

Instead the definition is effectively only:

'Train Company means a company operating passenger railway services'

Which doesn't really take us any further, and the rest of the sentence is informative rather than definitive.

(You could refer to Fowler's Modern English Usage at this point, on the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive relative clause. The use of 'which' implies a non-restrictive relative clause (non-defining), however the absence of a comma before it implies that it is just the common misuse of 'which' for 'that' and is in fact a restrictive (defining) relative clause, but it's not wholly fruitful to do so....)

You hold that we should interpret 'company' a body registered at Companies House.

I think that is rather a narrow definition, but it is one that could stand in the absence of further evidence or alternative meanings.

In fact the OED says

"company
1. a commercial business:
e.g. a shipping company"

Gatwick Express is very clearly a commercial business, with as separate a branding, identity, etc. from Southern, as FCC has from Southern. The distribution of the profits or accounts is not relevant - most people would not say that Pizza Hut and KFC are the same 'company', even though they are both in fact trading names of Yum Brands, or that The Guardian and Autotrader are the same company (again, same legal company behind them).

Given that the definition of 'Train Company' is in fact only 'a company operating passenger railway services', which is almost useless, we continue reading in hope of further clarification.

'A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more than one of these Companies;'

Ok, so we in fact have a complete list of 'Train Companies' provided.

So how can we possibly argue that our own definition of 'company' should override their list?

The document lists 'these companies'. It adds at the bottom that a current list is on the NR website.

Here it is:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/

Surprise surprise, Gatwick Express is also there.

Given that the contract clearly lists the 'Train Companies' (capitalization theirs), arguing about the definition of 'company's is plainly futile.

If they intended that Southern and Gatwick Express were one Train Company, they would have written:

"Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern and Gatwick Express)"

But they didn't, they list two entries - Southern and GatEx.

Trying to split hairs over the definition of 'company' within the Train Company definition when the contract very clearly lists the actual Train Companies is ridiculous.
 
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maniacmartin

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But Gatwick Express is not listed here http://www.atoc.org/train-companies

A separate branding is not enough to make GatEx a seperate company. It's identity is Southern Railway Limited, and it has the same shareholders, franchise, license, accounts etc, which I think is relevant.

If Pizza Hut and KFC are brands of the same trading limited company, then they are the same company. (Also they don't claim "Pizza Hut is operated by KFC"). Gatwick Express isn't a commercial business in its own right, it is a brand of the larger commercial business of Southern.

Whilst your suggested wording "Train Company means a company operating passenger railway services with a Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets." is certainly stronger than that in the NRCoC, I don't think that detracts from the meaning of the way the NRCoc words it.

Appendix C clearly differentiates company names from their brand names. I believe if the intended meaning was that a brand is a company, then they would be listed like:
Gatwick Express (operated by Southern Railways Ltd)
 

ralphchadkirk

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It's entirely standard to give terms special meaning in contracts, and when marked either with capitals or as in this insurance contract: http://www.axainsurance.com/car/policy-wording/2_1_75_CarPolicyWording.pdf with bold/colouring, you MUST use the contract's definition, not some alternate definition that suits your purposes better.
Absolutely agree. I had a look at the link you posted, and found a rather relevant definition. They define audio equipment as including sat nav systems. One logically would not, in the real (i.e. not legal) world define a sat nav as a piece of audio equipment, yet AXA do for their policy Contract and therefore that is the definition that must be used.

I disagree. The passage you quoted says "A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C". That sentence expands the definition of Train Company to include those entities listed in Appendix C. There is no other way to give meaning to that sentence.
Agreed.

The word "Company" has such a precise meaning, is in such wide useage, in so many fields and contexts, with a robust definition, even in the face of regular attempts to undermine that meaning, that it beggars belief that anyone should ever be expected to read down a legal document containing the word "Company" and not come to the same conclusion as I do: that a Company is a Company is a Company.
Capital letters and a preceeding word of Railway or Train do not reduce the power of that word's robust meaning.

I think one of Lord Hoffman's famous five principles is useful here: "the meaning of words is not a literal meaning, but the one reasonably understood from the context". Therefore, I believe that the preceding words, capital letters and definitions in the Contract to be part of the context when deciding the meaning of words used, however common their usage is.
 

Wolfie

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Gatwick Express is very clearly a commercial business, with as separate a branding, identity, etc. from Southern, as FCC has from Southern. The distribution of the profits or accounts is not relevant - most people would not say that Pizza Hut and KFC are the same 'company', even though they are both in fact trading names of Yum Brands, or that The Guardian and Autotrader are the same company (again, same legal company behind them).

my bold

Sorry but this, which you base your argument on, is plain wrong. Gatwick Express does NOT any more have a clearly distinct branding and identity. Many of the trains run marked merely as "Express" and they run to Brighton not to Gatwqick - where is the "clearly defined" and unique bit??? Gatwick Express is at best a brand-name used by Southern whereas FCC is a completely unrelated company to Southern - you are trying to compare chalk and cheese. Does Govia's rail division claim to operate separate companies called Southern and Gatwick Express - hell no, it specifically refers to Southern (which includes the Gatwick Express) - BUT explicitly does refer to Govia's other rail companies London Midland and Southeastern. See:

http://www.go-ahead.com/ourcompanies/rail.aspx

Turning to the rest of your arguement, it is far from unheard of for holding companies to own 100% and operate legally separate businesses. This is sound business practice not least because it means that one duff division does not kill the whole company. This is exactly what Yum Brands, which you cite does (oh, and they also separate each individual national division of each of the brands as a separate company....).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Furthermore your logic is also flawed in another respect. The list at the link you cite also includes "Stansted Express"; as far as I am aware no-one has ever tried to use exactly the arguement you use for Gatwick Express to claim that other Greater Anglia tickets are not valid on that service....

The only difference is that one used to be a stand-alone TOC, but isn't any longer, and the other has always been part of a larger TOC.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Furthermore your logic is also flawed in another respect. The list at the link you cite also includes "Stansted Express"; as far as I am aware no-one has ever tried to use exactly the arguement you use for Gatwick Express to claim that other Greater Anglia tickets are not valid on that service....

That's not a flaw in logic, in fact it's entirely the opposite. The poster is applying the argument to other, similar if not the same, situations.
 

cuccir

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There's also the problem that its one thing us debating the legal nicities, or obtaining FoIs from the DfT, but its another thing for the situation to be clear to the travelling public.

While it remains possible to buy a ticket routed 'Southern Only', then to go to Southern's website and download a 'Southern Network Map' which has the Gatwick Express listed upon it, Southern are at best being misleading, even if they are acting legally.
 
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