I've been on various trains that have terminated on the island platform and reversed, so capacity might not be an issue.
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Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation
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I've been on various trains that have terminated on the island platform and reversed, so capacity might not be an issue.
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RailUK Forums
After all the money that was spent on the Windsor Link, I have always thought what a waste it has been for it to be only mainly used by local services and for a few services to the Airport.
I seem to remember that when it was planned and being constructed it was advertised as a cross Manchester link to put an end to passengers having to walk from Piccadilly to Victoria and to enable long distance trains to be able to cross Manchester from north to south without the need for passengers to have to change trains.
In the early days there were a handful of London to Scotland trains which ran via Manchester and also served Bolton but other services that could have used the Windsor Link were actually withdrawn or diverted to Liverpool. Before the opening of the Windsor Link there were a handful of trains from East Anglia to Blackpool and even Barrow and there were 3 trains a day from Nottingham to Glasgow (diverted from Settle to Carlisle). These took a very slow route around the east of Manchester to access Victoria and the route through Bolton to Preston. However, as soon as the Windsor Link opened, which would have offered a much quicker journey, these were all withdrawn and all services from East Anglia and the East Midlands were routed to Liverpool. I still think that there would be a market for an hourly East Midlands/Sheffield service to at least Preston via the Windsor Link. You only have to see how many people get off the Norwich-Liverpool train at Piccadilly each hour and remain on the platform to board the following service to Blackpool.
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Not platform capacity I'm talking about - it's the ability to timetable one train to run through with a much extended dwell time compared to all others in the same direction - i.e. drop out of one path, then find a later path behind to drop back into on the Castlefield corridor.
Yes, but it's the fact that you have two additional tracks on a double track section which allows trains to turn back.
Greybeard33
Established Member
As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. There are only so many trains that can be squeezed through Ordsall Lane and Castlefield Junctions, so something has to give to make room for the Ordsall Chord services. Also the Airport line has limited capacity, so some Oxford Road services have to go to Hazel Grove instead.
Windsor Link services have to cross the path of those between Victoria and the Chat Moss line, restricting overall junction capacity. So it is operationally preferable for Salford Crescent services to go to Salford Central and Victoria.
Hindley and Westhoughton passengers for the Airport will have the options of a single change at either Bolton or Victoria, or at Salford Central once the new platforms are open. Passengers from Wigan and beyond will have the further option of an hourly fast train from Wigan NW direct to the Airport via the Chat Moss line.
The big winners will be travellers from the Calder Valley line, who will no longer have to get a tram or bus from Victoria to Piccadilly.
Manchester Airport is a regional asset, not for the exclusive use of Greater Manchester residents. The City Region as a whole benefits from the economic growth stimulated by the success of the Airport.
Greybeard33
Established Member
The main purpose of the Windsor Link was to concentrate Manchester services at Piccadilly, in an era when the railway was in decline. The Northern Hub partially reverses that policy, moving services to Victoria to avoid the Piccadilly bottleneck.
Everywhere cannot have through services to everywhere else. As you say, from East Anglia it is a same platform change at Piccadilly for Blackpool, Cumbria or Scotland.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
To/from Bradford and Halifax there is currently the option of changing at Huddersfield with eastbound TPE trains using a platform adjacent to the one Bradford services use at Huddersfield.
Agreed. However, it's unfortunate public transport to/from the Airport is focused on links north of the Airport, as though very few people who live south of the Airport would want to access the Airport by public transport.
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The original point I was responding to was the proposal to split/join Airport services at Oxford Rd, which I don't think is practical.
I don't dispute that there is capacity to turn trains back at Oxford Rd, which is a different operational kettle of fish (and is handy when access to Manchester Airport is impaired for whatever reason)
Greybeard33
Established Member
Agreed. I meant primarily Calder Valley stations west of Halifax, which will have, at most, a single change to Piccadilly and the Airport.
DfT failed to take the opportunity of the new Northern franchise to specify an improved service to the Airport from Wilmslow, Crewe and Stoke, which is an aspiration of the Manchester Airports Group.
Frothy
Member
So the Northern Franchise agreement makes reference to infrastructure improvements on the 'Manchester Victoria to Ashburys via the Ardwick Branch' which is the route you're referring to, so maybe we will see a return of through services from Sheffield to somewhere west of Victoria.
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Philip
On Moderation
The Northern Connect between Manchester and Wigan is the one I question. Would it not make more sense to have this as one of the four trains per hour along the Atherton line? You could have it stopping at Salford Crescent, Atherton and Daisy Hill and I doubt it would be much slower than running non-stop via Chat Moss. The argument about Wigan having a non-stop express to Manchester doesn't seem to stack up when similar towns like Bolton and Blackburn don't currently have a non-stop service to Manchester.
The Windsor Link had semi-regular long distance services to the south (and north) right up until the early 2000s. I think Operation Princess put an end to through workings to the South Coast from beyond Manchester?
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Greybeard33
Established Member
I doubt if the Northern Hub timetable would work with a 5th hourly service on the Windsor Link. Routing the Airport to Barrow/Windermere/Lancaster Northern Connect via Chat Moss reduces conflicts at Ordsall Lane Jn.
No, through XC workings every 2 hours were a key part of Operation Princess in September 2002 - generally Glasgow or Edinburgh via Manchester to Bournemouth or Poole.
They largely continued after May 2003, but all Bolton stops were removed on performance grounds, except for two southbound afternoon calls and one morning and afternoon northbound call.
This continued until December 2004 when the service was split in two at Manchester Piccadilly. Basically then every 2 hours Piccadilly-Glasgow or Edinburgh, with most Bolton stops reintstated. One morning northbound journey and one evening southbound started/terminated at Stafford - the evening one later extended to Birmingham New Street (possibly the morning one as well)
This continued until Dec 2007 when TPE took over the service.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I believe the Airport wanted the existing Crewe service extended to Stoke but DfT decided it would be more beneficial to have a Manchester Airport to Derby service, which will be looked at when the next EMT franchise is consulted on.
Philip
On Moderation
Fair enough.
The Manchester-Bolton-Preston route did go through mixed changes in the early 2000s. The quality of the stock increased with 175s and Voyagers replacing Sprinters and mk2 coaching stock. But this also meant 2/3-car DMUs replacing mainly 4-car Sprinter sets and likewise 4-car Voyagers replacing intercity rakes of normally 7 coaches.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Spin it any way you want, the reality is that a decision is being taken to deliberately worsen the quality of service options for a chunk of existing users. No reason why more Bolton services couldn't be "forced" to Victoria to allow the Atherton line at least an hourly service via the Windsor Link.
While the distance involved in a change between Wallgate and North Western is not great it is also often unpleasant due to being via a busy street with a poor pedestrian environment.
Where are the benefits to the wider City Region here?
Irrelevant. The routing is to avoid using the connection from the Hindley line to the WCML via North Western platform 1 which is single-track and subject to a permanent 15mph speed limit. Given your previous points you can just as easily argue that Manchester/Airport to Scotland services should remain on the Chat Moss route as the only inconvenienced passengers, to/from Bolton, can change either at Wigan OR Preston.
The real shame is that the opportunity to provide grade separation of the Victoria/Chat Moss route from the Windsor Link was not included as part of the Northern Hub master plan. I am sure we will regret this in not too many years time.
YorkshireBear
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You have taken one singular aspiration of the airport's transport strategy and used it to try and disprove the overarching point made.
Do you by any chance work for the daily mail?
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Don't know where you get that from. I was merely pointing out that in actual practice the medium-term service planning is disjointed and inconsistent, and that so far the DfT is paying no more than lip service to the concept of Rail North. I would also take issue with any suggestion that the plans are really the best we can do. Some things are being fudged but no-one is willing to hold their hands up and either admit or explain it.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The Airport and 'Airport City' are located pretty much on the Cheshire/Greater Manchester border. Places in Merseyside and Staffordshire are closer than places the far side of Greater Manchester, so public transport should reflect that and not just link the Airport to places in Greater Manchester. Lack of integrated ticketing is an issue for those travelling from outside Greater Manchester e.g. to get from Alderley Edge to Airport City you would need to use two different bus operators and no integrated ticketing is available.
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Greybeard33
Established Member
That would mean that at least one of the Chorley line services would have to remain diesel until Victoria to Stalybridge electrification is complete (because Victoria will not have platform capacity to terminate services from the west). So further delaying the redeployment of diesel stock, originally promised for Dec 2017, to improve services on other Northern routes.
Agreed, which is why Wigan Council's Town Centre Plan envisages public realm improvements to integrate the two stations into one cohesive rail hub.
The electrified Manchester to Preston via Bolton line will be quicker than the Wigan route. So Carlisle, Lockerbie, Glasgow and Edinburgh will all benefit from journey time improvements. While Barrow and Windermere will get more frequent direct services to/from Manchester and the Airport, albeit via the slower Wigan route.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I see from today's publicity on the Ordsall Chord lift that the route will start with 2 services in December 2017.
These are a Northern Calder Valley service, and a TPE North service, presumably from the Airport.
It then says that TPE will add a second service in December 2018.
Is this a surprise to anybody?
When do we expect the Liverpool-Scarborough service to be diverted from the CLC via Chat Moss and Victoria?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...e-move-brings-flowing-ribbon-link-closer.html
These are a Northern Calder Valley service, and a TPE North service, presumably from the Airport.
It then says that TPE will add a second service in December 2018.
Is this a surprise to anybody?
When do we expect the Liverpool-Scarborough service to be diverted from the CLC via Chat Moss and Victoria?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...e-move-brings-flowing-ribbon-link-closer.html
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Oddly enough I've just posted the answer to this question in the Ordsall Chord thread, since the effect of Castlefield capacity and its upgrade upon the Chord was being discussed there.
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WatcherZero
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I think the companies are both being cautious about slowly scaling up scheduled service levels in case there is a delay/performance issues.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Didn't a newspaper article mention the TPE 'semi-fasts' were to start in May 2018? I would have thought 2tph to the Airport via Victoria and the Scarborough diverted via Chat Moss would have happened at the same time.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If this is the case why have the Northern 'South Manchester' group improvements been deferred? I understand there may not be enough DMUs for the extra services to Greenbank and New Mills Newton but why can't the extra Macclesfield and Hazel Grove services run and the peak time extra Mid-Cheshire services run to Piccadilly (which won't need extra DMUs)?
It appears that there will continue to be terminators from the west at Victoria, even when all the new services are introduced. There will be a total of 12tph from the east (4TPE, 2 Stalybridge, 3 Bradford, 1 Brighouse, 1 Blackburn and 1 Rochdale). All of these will run through the station, but in theory could be accommodated on a pair of platforms - Victoria's theoretical capacity will be 24/30tph if all trains ran through.
If my reading of the ORR document I linked to is correct, yes, the York service is unchanged in December 2017, no Victoria call. Its also what the press article says.
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Again please look at the ORR document. It appears that the Liverpool-Scarborough service being diverted frees up a path through Castlefield for a TPE Chord service. Looking at both the Northern and TPE documents together, there seem to be no extra paths through Castlefield in December.
Greybeard33
Established Member
There are inconsistencies between the TPE SA and the Northern Stakeholder Consultation. When the TPE Liverpool-Scarborough service moves to the Chat Moss, the Northern Liverpool-Airport semi-fast must move to the CLC at same time to replace it (and become diesel). Probably the Chat Moss stopper also needs to swap from Victoria to Piccadilly concurrently, with the Southport semi-fast going to Victoria instead. Yet the Northern document does not mention any of these changes occurring in Dec 2017.
The TPE changes do not include the North TPE semi-fasts, so the Northern Vic to Huddersfield stopper will have to continue at least until May 2018. I guess this might mean that there is not a Vic to Stalybridge path available for the Airport-York/Newcastle service to shift to the Chord.
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