Last BR train, headboard removed "for safety reasons" ! ? !

Justin Smith · 11 Apr 2010

According to The Railway Magazine (May edition p36) the last BR train was the 23.15 Dollands Moor to Wembley container service on the 21st of November 1997.
As an historic train it had a special headboard made, and there is a picture of it with that headboard.
The article then goes on to say that the headboard was removed before the train departed "for safety reasons".
How can that possibly be ?
Health and Safety B******s of the first order surely ? ! ?

RailUK Forums

ChrisCooper · 11 Apr 2010

To be honest, I can only think the headboard must have been of a size of shape that it hindered the safe operation of the train. It could have been covering the lights for example. Loads of trains have run with headboards, and still do today, so there is nothing fundementally wrong with headboards, and the HSE has no problem with them. Got any pictures of it?

Justin Smith · 11 Apr 2010

ChrisCooper said:
To be honest, I can only think the headboard must have been of a size of shape that it hindered the safe operation of the train. It could have been covering the lights for example. Loads of trains have run with headboards, and still do today, so there is nothing fundementally wrong with headboards, and the HSE has no problem with them. Got any pictures of it?

The headboard doesn`t appear to be covering up any lights, in fact it fits rather neatly in the recess between the lights.

MCR247 · 11 Apr 2010

Can you upload the picture

route:oxford · 11 Apr 2010

Isn't it more likely that the headboard was removed as a consequence of the historic significance?

Save it getting damaged, or perhaps the safety concern that an overenthusiastic enthusiast may attempt to get hold of the headboard whilst the loco was held at a signal...

Justin Smith · 12 Apr 2010

The picture of the last BR train, c/w headboard.

CarterUSM · 12 Apr 2010

What was the last passenger train?

Chris125 · 12 Apr 2010

If you look at a 92, you'll notice that the only way that headboard could sit there was by hanging it from the handrail - if there had been an intention to use it in service then they'd have made it to go on the lamp iron above the headlight. Given that i believe this was a Channel Tunnel service, there really wasnt much point carrying it in service anyway - no one would've seen it once it left the yard.

Chris

the sniper · 12 Apr 2010

Justin Smith said:
The picture of the last BR train, c/w headboard.

There's no chance that could have stayed on in service, once the train reached a decent speed it would have just been lifted straight off the front. Even if it was fixed down somehow, it'd still have buffeted like crazy, you'd have to imagine.

Justin Smith · 12 Apr 2010

Chris125 said:
If you look at a 92, you'll notice that the only way that headboard could sit there was by hanging it from the handrail - if there had been an intention to use it in service then they'd have made it to go on the lamp iron above the headlight. Given that i believe this was a Channel Tunnel service, there really wasnt much point carrying it in service anyway - no one would've seen it once it left the yard.
Chris

It was going to Wembley, not under the channel.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the sniper said:
There's no chance that could have stayed on in service, once the train reached a decent speed it would have just been lifted straight off the front. Even if it was fixed down somehow, it'd still have buffeted like crazy, you'd have to imagine.

Surely they could have done something, even made the headbord a different shape to fit in a different position on the front, isn`t that a lamp iron to the left of it ?
Let's face it, if they couldn't think of anything else they could have just stuck the bleedin' thing on ? ! ?
Gordon Bennet, this was an historic train.
Pathetic, giving up too easily, just like the Channel Tunnel fiasco the other month in fact........

Chris125 · 12 Apr 2010

Who cares? The headboard was made, the occassion noted, photographs were taken, the train went on its way.

As has been pointed out this isnt H&S 'gone mad', just staff making a headboard that looks good on the front of a 92 without concern for the couple of enthusiasts who might have seen it on the train in the middle of the night.

Chris

tbtc · 12 Apr 2010

Fuss over nothing

ralphchadkirk · 12 Apr 2010

Looks like a rant for the sake of a rant.

Greenback · 12 Apr 2010

A rant about H&S which Justin seems to have issues with, going by their signature!

tbtc · 12 Apr 2010

Greenback said:
A rant about H&S which Justin seems to have issues with, going by their signature!

All the people who rant about Health & Safety Gone Mad (often about things like this headboard which have nothing to do with H&S) are always quiet whenever a track worker is killed or a train crash occurs.

I really find it hard to care whether this one service kept its headboard on or not for the duration of its journey

Greenback · 12 Apr 2010

Neither do I! It was nice a comemmorative ehadboard was made, but that's about it really! I think there are far more things to be concerned about, like those you mention!

Sadly, I find a lot of blogs and the like on the web are just people banging on about their own personal hobbyhorses. There's nothing wrong with that, everyone has the right to express their opinions, but the fact that these opportunities exist seems to convince some people (not necessarily Justin - Ia m talkin ggenerally) that their views are shared by large sections of the community, when in fact it's only those who share their views who respond, and they are often a small minority of people!

Oh dear, I seem to have behaved in exactly the same way! I must start a blog...

yorksrob · 13 Apr 2010

Well, much as Health and Safety is important, there is no doubt that it has been to the detriment of many of many rail enthusiasts in the persuit of their hobby. It's noteable that in many instances in life, consenting adults are permitted to take risks which I myself and many others would baulk at. Jumping out of a plane for fun, and to a lesser extent, driving around in a vintage car (legally) without seatbelts spring to mind. Yet it seems noteable that the chance of any electric slammer railtours in the near future have been all but been scuppered mainly due to over zelous health and safety regulation. This is in spite of the fact that such a railtour might even be safer than any of the above examples (and many others), and that there would probably be enthusiast drivers and guards who would be more than willing to take the risk along with their passengers.

Sorry to get on my hobbyhorse but frankly a bit of compromise from the H&S police for rail enthusiasts wouldn't go a miss now and again.

Justin Smith · 13 Apr 2010

Greenback said:
A rant about H&S which Justin seems to have issues with, going by their signature!

Obviously the fact that this headboard was removed is unfortunate, and a bit sad, but not important in the wider sense of the word. I can`t believe it would have happened even 5 years before though.

And yes I do think Health and Safety has gone too far, way too far,
The important thing to remember is that every H & S edict has a cost somewhere along the line, either in terms of time, money, aggravation or just denying people the oppurtunity to do something interesting. A good example of the latter being many Heritage Railways now ban people from looking round the depots.
On the time thing, after the crashes outside Paddington the line speed was lowered. Somebody worked out it cost every train an extra minute or two. If there`s 500 people on every train and 10 trains an hour for 15 hours, that`s a hell of a lot of time wasted every day. I may have just done the maths wrong but I work that out at 15 weeks worth of time, and that`s every day.....
This H&S at all costs thing is not as simple as it sounds.

ralphchadkirk · 13 Apr 2010

A good example of the latter being many Heritage Railways now ban people from looking round the depots.

That is not true. Almost every heritage railway lets people round their depot's, unless work or shunting is happening which would make it dangerous for the general public.

90019 · 13 Apr 2010

Justin Smith said:
On the time thing, after the crashes outside Paddington the line speed was lowered. Somebody worked out it cost every train an extra minute or two. If there's 500 people on every train and 10 trains an hour for 15 hours, that's a hell of a lot of time wasted every day. I may have just done the maths wrong but I work that out at 15 weeks worth of time, and that's every day.....

But you could apply that to pretty much everything.

For example, if 500 people have a kettle that takes a minute longer to boil than one they could've had, and they make a cup of coffee before going out to work every morning, then they all lose a minute each time. The cumulative effect of this is a loss of 8.33 hours every day.

It's kettles gone mad!

tbtc · 13 Apr 2010

Justin Smith said:
I do think Health and Safety has gone too far, way too far

What gets blamed as "Health & Safety" is usually just companies scared of getting sued, so reluctant to do things

Its nothing to do with actual H&S legislation, but companies paranoid about covering their backsides in case an accident leads to a court case - hence the hi-vis jackets etc

However, people blame H&S in the way that they blame Political Correctness - its a kneejerk reaction in many cases

There's a good quote along the lines of "If you think Health & Safety is expensive, try having an accident and seeing how expensive that is"

markem41 · 13 Apr 2010

I completely understand the reasons why H&S is implemented in all walks of life but I would simply like the option of signing a disclaimer that says:

"I understand that I am at risk and I might even lose my life but I would like to carry on anyway and I take personal responsibility for my actions, now get out of the way and let me breathe."

Maybe it's just me!

Greenback · 13 Apr 2010

tbtc said:
What gets blamed as "Health & Safety" is usually just companies scared of getting sued, so reluctant to do things

Its nothing to do with actual H&S legislation, but companies paranoid about covering their backsides in case an accident leads to a court case - hence the hi-vis jackets etc

However, people blame H&S in the way that they blame Political Correctness - its a kneejerk reaction in many cases

There's a good quote along the lines of "If you think Health & Safety is expensive, try having an accident and seeing how expensive that is"

Yes, we live in such a litigous society now that companies are, understandably, keen to ensure they cover their rears as much as they can. It's all a result of people wanting a pay day because they tripped up, slipped, or whatever!

markem41 said:
I completely understand the reasons why H&S is implemented in all walks of life but I would simply like the option of signing a disclaimer that says:

"I understand that I am at risk and I might even lose my life but I would like to carry on anyway and I take personal responsibility for my actions, now get out of the way and let me breathe."

Maybe it's just me!

Lol! A bus driver wouldn't let me off a bus in Reading once as we weren't at a proper stop and he said it wasn't safe to let me off whilst stopped at the traffic lights! Do you think waving a disclaimer at him would have changed his mind?!

markem41 · 13 Apr 2010

Greenback said:
Yes, we live in such a litigous society now that companies are, understandably, keen to ensure they cover their rears as much as they can. It's all a result of people wanting a pay day because they tripped up, slipped, or whatever!

Lol! A bus driver wouldn't let me off a bus in Reading once as we weren't at a proper stop and he said it wasn't safe to let me off whilst stopped at the traffic lights! Do you think waving a disclaimer at him would have changed his mind?!

I can but hope! Although if a bus overshoots your stop and you shout at the driver to stop, they generally just pull over as soon as they can and let you off.

royaloak · 13 Apr 2010

markem41 said:
I can but hope! Although if a bus overshoots your stop and you shout at the driver to stop, they generally just pull over as soon as they can and let you off.

Shout at me and you would end up at the NEXT stop or the one after that, simple!

markem41 · 13 Apr 2010

royaloak said:
Shout at me and you would end up at the NEXT stop or the one after that, simple!

LOL! I meant shout as in a vocal indication of my surprise that the bus had continued past my stop usually along the lines of 'This/That stop please!' - not shout AT the driver

Justin Smith · 13 Apr 2010

tbtc said:
What gets blamed as "Health & Safety" is usually just companies scared of getting sued, so reluctant to do things

Its nothing to do with actual H&S legislation, but companies paranoid about covering their backsides in case an accident leads to a court case - hence the hi-vis jackets etc

However, people blame H&S in the way that they blame Political Correctness - its a kneejerk reaction in many cases

There's a good quote along the lines of "If you think Health & Safety is expensive, try having an accident and seeing how expensive that is"

There's another significant category you've missed out, that is councils, and indeed commercial undertakings, using H&S as an excuse to cut services and save money.
I do wonder how many of us would still have ended up as train enthusiasts if the H&S culture had been as severe in the 70s, or the 60s or 50s for some people ! How many of todays young enthusiasts get to "cab" a loco, or get round a depot ? OK you weren't officially ever allowed to do the latter but you were rarely stopped so long as you were reasonably discreet, and had the nerve to just walk straight in !
On the subject of getting to see round a depot I used to be in the Deltic Preservation Society, but when I visted Barrow Hill with my Dad I was told despite being a member, and recognising one of the lads I`d worked on Alycidon with, I couldn`t enter the shed to look around "due to Health and Safety". I was so annoyed I cancelled my membership and have never been back.

Geezertronic · 13 Apr 2010

There was a programme on the Beeb a while back about people who make questionable H&S claims and the programme included:

A woman who broke her ankle in a Mums race at her kids Sports Day - she dropped her claim when video footage of the race was presented by another parent
A girl who was sitting in a park and was hit by a falling tree branch (not a big one, looked like a long twig to me) - if memory serves she won her case against the council as they "did not maintain the trees effectively"
A guy who cut himself whilst shaving (which left a small scar) and claimed the razor was defective - he won his case and got compo from the razor manufacturer

From my point of view, the jury is still out on the last one but the other two were ridiculous claims. There was also an old chap who tripped over a slightly raised paving slab but that was dismissed as the paving slab was not raised enough according to the law

The only thing I can opt out of at my work is the 40 hour week (means I can do Overtime if it is offered). The rest of the H&S stuff is a pain in the arse but is there for a reason.

tbtc · 13 Apr 2010

Justin Smith said:
There's another significant category you've missed out, that is councils, and indeed commercial undertakings, using H&S as an excuse to cut services and save money

True; yet another example of people using H&S as an excuse, rather than a criticism of Health & Safety itself. It gives serious accident prevention a bad name

Justin Smith said:
I do wonder how many of us would still have ended up as train enthusiasts if the H&S culture had been as severe in the 70s, or the 60s or 50s for some people ! How many of todays young enthusiasts get to "cab" a loco, or get round a depot ? OK you weren't officially ever allowed to do the latter but you were rarely stopped so long as you were reasonably discreet, and had the nerve to just walk straight in !

True again. One of the reasons I got enthused in the first place was the driver of a class 20 at Leuchars (waiting time for a path on the main line) letting me into his cab and to play on the controls. That kind of thing would never happen now - nothing to do with Health & Safety - all to do with paranoia about pedophiles and people scared about losing their jobs for 'minor' misdemeanours (like bus drivers not stopping where its not a designated stop etc)

Again, the world has changed, and not always for the best, but not a Health & Safety issue

royaloak · 13 Apr 2010

markem41 said:
LOL! I meant shout as in a vocal indication of my surprise that the bus had continued past my stop usually along the lines of 'This/That stop please!' - not shout AT the driver

Fair enough chief, I did mean to put a smillie after my other post to show it was a bit tongue in cheek but forgot :oops:

, been there done that, had a tw4t really giving it the verbal once so just kept driving (it was a quiet trip) until he said please, think he ended up about a mile past his stop :lol:

Last BR train, headboard removed "for safety reasons" ! ? !

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