Great Western Super Express Trains (aka IEP) trains to not have a hot buffet?

Bishopstone · 10 Apr 2015

Neil Williams said:
One thing that's changed these days is the amount of tech being carried. If I've got a couple of laptops and a tablet on me, I would rather a trolley and may well not bother at all if there isn't one, as I won't be leaving them unattended (and indeed would get in trouble if my work laptop was nicked in such circumstances).

Likewise, and not just tech. It would be a serious disciplinary offence for me to leave papers (customer or internal) unattended at-seat. So they would also have to go in the bag to the buffet car with laptop, Blackberry etc... quite apart from any of the personal gadgets I might be carrying.

Coffee from a trolley is fine by me. I can then either take my chance on trolley sandwiches or, more likely, stock-up beforehand. As long as you know what the service will be, you can plan accordingly.

RailUK Forums

Greenback · 10 Apr 2015

That's a good point. We are all far more security conscious these days and people don't want to leave their belongings at their seat while they go wandering off for refreshments.

The Ham · 10 Apr 2015

Dave1987 said:
Just get the feeling that the DFT we're going after the headline figure of 18% more seating and to hell with anything else.

The problem is that based on NR growth figures 18% of growth gets used up in a little over 4 years, meaning that without it trains would be really bad to travel on as everything else would have to be done to keep up with passenger growth.

No Buffet, no luggage racks, less first class, 3+2 seating, etc.

Even using the lower growth rate of 2.5% (used in the HS2 business case) it is just under 7 years of growth.

59CosG95 · 10 Apr 2015

AngusH said:
I fear you may be right, but I do hope that if the vehicle spec calls for a trolley, then some effort will have been put into designing the carriage so that a trolley can be safely used.

I suppose trolleys weren't a thing when the HST/mk3 were being designed.

Do East Coast HST services have a trolley? Or is it just the mk4?
I know some services have them because I've bought tea from them, but I can't remember if it was a HST or a mk4

If the doors were slam-doors, it would be a HST Mk3 trailer; if they were automatic, it would have been a Mk4.

HSTEd · 10 Apr 2015

The Ham said:
The problem is that based on NR growth figures 18% of growth gets used up in a little over 4 years, meaning that without it trains would be really bad to travel on as everything else would have to be done to keep up with passenger growth.

No Buffet, no luggage racks, less first class, 3+2 seating, etc.

Even using the lower growth rate of 2.5% (used in the HS2 business case) it is just under 7 years of growth.

And they might even have had to make the trains as long as they can be and still fit in the platforms (10-car singles and none of this double set stuff).

plymothian · 10 Apr 2015

WelshBluebird said:
Is this going to affect the Pullman Dining aswell, or is this just the buffet shop thing that you can visit to buy drinks and lighter things to eat?
Really want to try the Pullman Dining at some point, but sadly can't really justify the cost atm. But don't want to miss out if it is to be scrapped when the IEP's come in.

Pullmans are written in to the new franchise agreement, so they cannot be scrapped.

FGW's research says that the money they would get from people who would buy from a trolley that don't visit the buffet now, far outweighs the loss of the buffet altogether.

DarloRich · 10 Apr 2015

Greenback said:
The RMT would have made more of an issue of the change if there had been jobs at stake. I'd like to know what their response is to FGW's proposals, though.

A no compulsory redundancy deal and no reduction in T&C's + pay offs for anyone who wants to leave v a non strike agreement over IEP & DOO

It will be interesting

Starmill · 10 Apr 2015

Greenback said:
I still use the trains a lot though. I can just about tolerate three hours in standard on an FGW HST, which at least gets me to Reading and London. I don't know how I'd feel about a trip from London to Penzance, though!

Better than me! They are loathsomely uncomfortable seats with a very poor view due to the oversized headrests, not much padding and a pitch that really hurts my back after around an hour. Sit at a bay of 4 with all of the other seats occupied and it quickly becomes very cramped.

broadgage · 10 Apr 2015

HSTEd said:
This was inevitable with the move to 5-car sets.
They put a premium on space.

Otherwise you could have ten cars with proper buffets, not two half sets

Most of the new DMUs are indeed only 5 car, but some are 9 car and these also have no buffet. Progress I suppose.
On another forum, I have stated as an opinion, and more recently stated as a fact that "the new trains wont have buffets"
Those in favour of the new shorter DMUs felt that I was being unduly negative, and initially stated that the new units would have buffets, and then that they could have buffets if the TOC wanted this facility, and then that the interior is flexible and that a buffet could be added later.
They are being built without buffets, and the RMT are threatening industrial action over this and other concerns.
FGW are now claiming that people prefer a trolley anyway and that surveys confirm this. A well worded survey can produce whatever result is desired.
The purpose of carrying out a survey is not to find out what people want, but to justify decisions already taken.

I am not convinced that a 5 car DMU without a buffet, and with largely bus style seating without tables, is either a fitting replacement for an HST or indeed the "purpose designed inter city train" that was promised.

fgwrich · 10 Apr 2015

broadgage said:
Most of the new DMUs are indeed only 5 car, but some are 9 car and these also have no buffet. Progress I suppose.
On another forum, I have stated as an opinion, and more recently stated as a fact that "the new trains wont have buffets"
Those in favour of the new shorter DMUs felt that I was being unduly negative, and initially stated that the new units would have buffets, and then that they could have buffets if the TOC wanted this facility, and then that the interior is flexible and that a buffet could be added later.
They are being built without buffets, and the RMT are threatening industrial action over this and other concerns.
FGW are now claiming that people prefer a trolley anyway and that surveys confirm this. A well worded survey can produce whatever result is desired.
The purpose of carrying out a survey is not to find out what people want, but to justify decisions already taken.

I am not convinced that a 5 car DMU without a buffet, and with largely bus style seating without tables, is either a fitting replacement for an HST or indeed the "purpose designed inter city train" that was promised.

I really would be interested to know when this survey was carried out - none of my contacts or I have ever been asked. Not all new DMUs built are sans Buffet either though - Even Irish Rail's 6/5 Car 22000s were built with a Buffet counter too.

Either way, I still feel that it's a sad loss - and a shame that even a Mini Buffet style set up was not considered.

185 · 10 Apr 2015

Buffets are modular and done right, a small static buffet, with microwave stack, storage, fridges and a waiting area can take up the space of 12-14 seats - a reasonable tradeoff for a proper intercity service.

Dave1987 · 11 Apr 2015

broadgage said:
I am not convinced that a 5 car DMU without a buffet, and with largely bus style seating without tables, is either a fitting replacement for an HST or indeed the "purpose designed inter city train" that was promised.

That's what I really really don't get. They have ordered a load of 5 car trains which will inevitably run in place of a full length HST. You then get exactly the same problem as with the Voyagers on Cross Country. Along with all the many many other design flaws in the IEP project and the sheer cost of the dam thing this buffet/trolley service thing is the icing on the top. If they put 2 x 5 car set out of Paddington they are not going to have two separate trolley services and two kitchens are they. Wonder whether or not the civil servants will give themselves a pat on the back in 2018, hopefully they all get sacked.

bnm · 11 Apr 2015

plymothian said:
Pullmans are written in to the new franchise agreement, so they cannot be scrapped.

Is their a link available to the document where this is stated?

route:oxford · 11 Apr 2015

starmill said:
Better than me! They are loathsomely uncomfortable seats with a very poor view due to the oversized headrests, not much padding and a pitch that really hurts my back after around an hour. Sit at a bay of 4 with all of the other seats occupied and it quickly becomes very cramped.

A headrest, by the very name, clearly need to be tall enough to rest a head against!

In the 70s, when the heritage seating was designed the country, was full of poorly nourished shorties.

These days the "taller" person is considerably taller - in particular people who have the income to travel by train tend to be considerably taller than those who don't.

The "wealth to height" link can be particularly noted in some retail outlets. I was visiting Stirling just after Christmas and visited two grocers:-

In Waitrose, where I did the bulk of my shopping, I was pretty much the "normal" height person amongst both customers and staff at 6'2".

In Farmfoods, where I grabbed a few *branded* bargains, not one other customer in this busy shop came up to my shoulder height and many were around nipple height.

The Ham · 11 Apr 2015

Dave1987 said:
That's what I really really don't get. They have ordered a load of 5 car trains which will inevitably run in place of a full length HST. You then get exactly the same problem as with the Voyagers on Cross Country. Along with all the many many other design flaws in the IEP project and the sheer cost of the dam thing this buffet/trolley service thing is the icing on the top. If they put 2 x 5 car set out of Paddington they are not going to have two separate trolley services and two kitchens are they. Wonder whether or not the civil servants will give themselves a pat on the back in 2018, hopefully they all get sacked.

Given how busy the existing catering facilities can be, there is an argument that if you are going to have a trolley service on trains then there comes a point when two trolleys would be needed to cope with the demand.

As, not only would there be the potential issue of getting around all the seats, but also the issue of having enough stock to cater for all the people on the train. It's one thing to have one trolley on basically commuter trains (Waterloo to Portsmouth) but it's quite another on services like some of the longer distance which GW will be running.

Woody · 11 Apr 2015

plymothian said:
Pullmans are written in to the new franchise agreement, so they cannot be scrapped.

FGW's research says that the money they would get from people who would buy from a trolley that don't visit the buffet now, far outweighs the loss of the buffet altogether.

But the new FGW franchise agreement is only a short term temporary fix (direct award) to manage the franchise through the disruptive period of the electrification works and the introduction of the full planned IEP/AT300? timetable from December 2018. So of course in the meantime its still HSTs and therefore Pullman dining. The crunch will come post 2018 when the IEP/AT300 equipped FGW franchise is put out for the normal competitive tendering process which judging from the tone of this letter from FGW to its staff dated 2nd April 2015 looks very dodgy indeed for the future of Pullman dining.
https://exiledmackem.wordpress.com/...yourselves-for-a-massive-battle-to-save-jobs/

Aldaniti · 11 Apr 2015

Dave1987 said:
That's what I really really don't get. They have ordered a load of 5 car trains which will inevitably run in place of a full length HST. You then get exactly the same problem as with the Voyagers on Cross Country. Along with all the many many other design flaws in the IEP project and the sheer cost of the dam thing this buffet/trolley service thing is the icing on the top. If they put 2 x 5 car set out of Paddington they are not going to have two separate trolley services and two kitchens are they. Wonder whether or not the civil servants will give themselves a pat on the back in 2018, hopefully they all get sacked.

Exactly what I'm thinking. It is beyond credibilty that anyone would even think that a 5 car train for a busy and growing IC route is acceptable, never mind one with no buffet. They haven't learned anything from the farce that Virgin first brought to the WCML. Virgin's passengers went through several years of pain before the service eventually settled down to something half reasonable, and whilst standard class remains truly awful compared to the Mk3 stock that was replaced, at least the trains have a buffet! I have a feeling that the folk who use FGW will soon be experiencing the same sort of pain suffered by those of us who live on the WCML.

Essexman · 11 Apr 2015

Yet another change that make's Britain's trains worse than they were thirty years ago.

Agent_c · 11 Apr 2015

Essexman said:
Yet another change that make's Britain's trains worse than they were thirty years ago.

I don't see how you get that conclusion...

If more people are likely to use the service as a result of it changing to a trolley service, surely then the "feet" have "voted", and determined that this is an improvement to Britain's trains.

For me a visit to the Shop/Buffet/Lounge Car/Restaurant Car is putting my Laptop and all other associated stuff away, trooping up with all my gear, and then trooping back. More than a hassle... and even then I'm not entirely comfortable leaving my case out of eyeshot.

I'd be more likely to use a trolley as a result as its less of a hassle, and actually probably more of an impulse thing anyway. That's an improvement.

jimm · 11 Apr 2015

Essexman said:
Yet another change that make's Britain's trains worse than they were thirty years ago.

And 30 or 40 years ago many long-distance journeys took a heck of a lot longer, so there was likely to be more demand for food, and the only catering available at stations was a Travellers Fare buffet, as opposed to the mini food-courts that most major stations seem to be turning into these days.

Times have changed and so have people's on-train eating habits. FGW has stuck with the buffet model longer then most and tried its level best with things like Travelling Chef but sadly it didn't work. And the offer in the shop on a Pendolino isn't exactly a huge improvement on a trolley anyway.

Aldaniti · 11 Apr 2015

jimm said:
And 30 or 40 years ago many long-distance journeys took a heck of a lot longer, so there was likely to be more demand for food, and the only catering available at stations was a Travellers Fare buffet, as opposed to the mini food-courts that most major stations seem to be turning into these days.

Times have changed and so have people's on-train eating habits. FGW has stuck with the buffet model longer then most and tried its level best with things like Travelling Chef but sadly it didn't work. And the offer in the shop on a Pendolino isn't exactly a huge improvement on a trolley anyway.

Whilst I dislike travelling Standard on Virgin Trains, I have to be fair and say that I find the Pendolino buffets to be the best on the network. You have room to browse the offerings, which are far greater than a trolley can provide, and the hot drinks are decent enough and served hot, having been prepared in a proper coffee machine. On the rare occasions when I do travel by train these days, I still find myself buying something at the station or from the on-board buffet, even when travelling first with a complimentary offer (which I usually decline), and would never buy from a trolley. Far too many experiences of being served lukewarm dishwater I'm afraid. :lol:

Dave1987 · 11 Apr 2015

I prefer going to the buffet myself as when you get a Tea/Coffee it is actually hot instead of mildly warm when off of the trolley, they can offer a much wider selection at a buffet etc etc but I can understand why they are going to trolley service (I wouldn't buy anything from it though).

I don't see the TOC wanting to staff two trolleys and two kitchens on a 2 x 5 car set. If this is the direction the DFT wants to go in I can see catering on these trains completely disappearing in the future or catering only being available on one half of the train, which is a bit ridiculous.

ainsworth74 · 11 Apr 2015

Perhaps a trolley in one and buffet in the other? They could swap half-way through the journey :lol:

jimm · 11 Apr 2015

Dave1987 said:
I prefer going to the buffet myself as when you get a Tea/Coffee it is actually hot instead of mildly warm when off of the trolley, they can offer a much wider selection at a buffet etc etc but I can understand why they are going to trolley service (I wouldn't buy anything from it though).

I don't see the TOC wanting to staff two trolleys and two kitchens on a 2 x 5 car set. If this is the direction the DFT wants to go in I can see catering on these trains completely disappearing in the future or catering only being available on one half of the train, which is a bit ridiculous.

:roll:

Another thread about IEP, yet another doom-laden forecast from you... there must be some peak-time Virgin 2x5 Voyager formations operating with similar levels of on-board staffing, even if two of them are wedged into the shop, rather than working a trolley.

And you and Aldaniti may like going to buffets, not enough other people do, apparently. If I'm in coach A on an FGW HST, I often find it a bit of pain in the posterior having to tramp the length of five or six coaches just to get a cup of tea. Somewhere back up the thread someone else said they prefer filter or capsule coffee to bean-to-cup. You can't please all the people all the time.

And I doubt we will ever get to the truth of the matter of buffets v trolleys in terms of sales and revenue, as none of the TOCs seem overly keen on discussing the finances of their on-train catering.

Hadders · 11 Apr 2015

Couldn't we have a buffet and a trolley.

East Coast seem to manage it (most of the time anyway!)

bussnapperwm · 11 Apr 2015

Dave1987 said:
That's what I really really don't get. They have ordered a load of 5 car trains which will inevitably run in place of a full length HST. You then get exactly the same problem as with the Voyagers on Cross Country. Along with all the many many other design flaws in the IEP project and the sheer cost of the dam thing this buffet/trolley service thing is the icing on the top. If they put 2 x 5 car set out of Paddington they are not going to have two separate trolley services and two kitchens are they. Wonder whether or not the civil servants will give themselves a pat on the back in 2018, hopefully they all get promotion.

Fixed the likely outcome for you...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hadders said:
Couldn't we have a buffet and a trolley.

East Coast seem to manage it (most of the time anyway!)

Thus giving people a choice on what they want

Essexman · 11 Apr 2015

I meant not just the catering but the more cramped seating. I know the reasons but find that standard class travel in older trains (mark 3 & mark 4) is more enjoyable than modern trains such as Voyagers & Pendolinos. Hence if possible I will choose East Midland HSTs to Leicester / Nottingham & Chiltern Silver Trains to Birmingham. I am more inclined to use First Class now but now there are less seats on FGW this is usually prohibitively expensive.

Trolley refreshments instead of the restaurants or buffet hot food that used to be far more widespread, take away one of the benefits on train over air.

Maybe I am not a typical passenger, but I see train travel as an experience to be enjoyed and more than just getting from A to B.

Dave1987 · 11 Apr 2015

jimm said:
Another thread about IEP, yet another doom-laden forecast from you... there must be some peak-time Virgin 2x5 Voyager formations operating with similar levels of on-board staffing, even if two of them are wedged into the shop, rather than working a trolley.

Firstly I would like to point out that I'm entitled to my own opinion. If you love the whole IEP project then that is entirely up to you.

I have read many columns on this project and there are many things that are impressive about it, but there are many other things that are not. For instance I read recently that Bombardier were told by the DFT not to even bother submitting a design unless it was exactly what the DFT had in mind regardless of whether that design would be more energy efficient. Couple that with the immense cost, the fact that the DFT changed their mind on letting the franchisee make the decision on the ECML trains to make sure that IEP was chosen etc etc etc..... and that is why my opinion still stands on this project.

Then even withstanding the rest of the arguments for and against the whole 2 x 5 car formation with 2 trolleys and 2 kitchens for first class catering just shows the way it is all heading. I love how fast Voyagers are, I do not love them going around as single units and the subsequent lack of space or the fact you can't get a decent hot cup of tea or coffee on board.

bnm · 11 Apr 2015

plymothian said:
Pullmans are written in to the new franchise agreement, so they cannot be scrapped.

I'll ask again. source?

It would certainly be a first if the DfT had specified a restaurant service in a franchise tender, direct or otherwise.

DDB · 11 Apr 2015

Several posters have cast doubt on surveys. It is true it matters what exactly is asked. It is also true that what people say they want and what they actually do doesn't always match.

The people who actually have to make this decision don't have this problem because they will have actual data on how much buffets and trolley sell.

If the people who have the data and whose job it is to maximise revenue from on train catering chose trolleys over buffets, then it must be because in total passengers spend more money with trolleys than then they do at buffets regardless of what they might tell you if you ask them in a survey.

DDB

Great Western Super Express Trains (aka IEP) trains to not have a hot buffet?

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Emeritus Moderator

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member