advance single tickets & privatisation

LdsTrn56 · 5 Aug 2015

Hi there

I was wondering for how long cheap advance single tickets have been available, and was this an 'innovation' that came with privatisation :oops:

or the internet? :idea:

Also, do these competitive tickets only work if there are at least 2 private operators competing on the same line? :roll:

Cheers
J

RailUK Forums

Greenback · 5 Aug 2015

BR offered some Advance type singles, from 1991 or 1992 IIRC, but technological progress made it possible to expand this as the years passed.

There were plenty of Advances available by 1998, and the internet was not widely available at that time. Even so, both that and privatisation probably helped to speed up the proliferation of such fares.

najaB · 5 Aug 2015

jamie000 said:
Also, do these competitive tickets only work if there are at least 2 private operators competing on the same line?

They can also be useful for a single operator who wishes to encourage people to move leisure travel out of peak times.

Starmill · 5 Aug 2015

The fares work on multiple lines where there is only one operator. Inverness to Wick or Kyle of Lochalsh for example has only 1 available rail option whatever you do, but Advances are atill available.

CyrusWuff · 6 Aug 2015

If memory serves, BR essentially had three tiers of Advance Purchase tickets:

SuperApex - Book up to 14 days in advance
Apex - Book up to 7 days in advance
SuperAdvance - Book by 6pm (2pm for some early morning trains) the day before travel

Camden · 6 Aug 2015

Pre-privatisation (and pre-lead up to privatisation, as I remember fares increasing during that time as privatisation approached) walk up fares were generally quite reasonable. If there were advance fares, I never used them. Back in the day, it was pretty normal to decide on the spur of the moment you'd go and visit somewhere and the trains were a great facilitator of that at that time.

I doubt the internet would have been a factor as to the introduction, as if cheap fares were available people would use the telephone to book (or phone to check availability and go to the station booking office, that's how we rolled back then).

I also don't think the focus was on the tickets being "competitive" but more trying to find ways of moving the majority of passengers to pre-booking. If you imagine a predominantly pre-booked railway you have a railway in which you can deploy the minimal rolling stock possible to convey those passengers, while also being able to vary prices according to different times of day and push people for the very most they are able to pay.

Edit:

CyrusWuff said:
If memory serves, BR essentially had three tiers of Advance Purchase tickets:

SuperApex - Book up to 14 days in advance

Apex - Book up to 7 days in advance

SuperAdvance - Book by 6pm (2pm for some early morning trains) the day before travel

Ah yes those ring a bell and in fact I think I did get a SuperAdvance once or twice. As I recall there was no limit on availability like with today's tickets, nor variable prices, simply that if you booked in advance the price advertised was the price you got. In fact, I think the SuperAdvance didn't even restrict the train to use (might be wrong, but pretty sure it was just like a super off-peak).

Greenback · 6 Aug 2015

CyrusWuff said:
If memory serves, BR essentially had three tiers of Advance Purchase tickets:

SuperApex - Book up to 14 days in advance

Apex - Book up to 7 days in advance

SuperAdvance - Book by 6pm (2pm for some early morning trains) the day before travel

I remember Apex and Super Apex, which was a development of Apex, being offered by BR before privatisation. As I recall, SuperAdvance came later again, but I could be wrong.

LdsTrn56 · 6 Aug 2015

Thanks all.

As a relatively new, but prolific, user of the East Coast line I was curious as to how I would cope with costs pre-privatisation as my advance tickets work out as about £20/day from Yrk to NCL rtn which is much cheaper than the season ticket. Everyone always seems to be in favour of re-nationalisation but I just don't have the facts to know which system is better. The East Coast nationalised (until recently) trains are very ancient compared to the other operators, but I tent to go with the cheapest fairs which are First trains most of the time and sometimes Virgin East Coast.

As a rough percentage of rail enthusiasts, which system do you think is favoured?

najaB · 6 Aug 2015

jamie000 said:
The East Coast nationalised (until recently) trains are very ancient compared to the other operator...

The operator has surprisingly little to do with the age of the rolling stock as typically it is specified as part of the franchise specification. Also, you might not be aware that East Coast are very soon going to have brand-new trains (which are already under test).

yorksrob · 6 Aug 2015

I wouldn't call Mk4's ancient by any stretch of the imagination.

Hadders · 6 Aug 2015

yorksrob said:
I wouldn't call Mk4's ancient by any stretch of the imagination.

Quite. The Mark IV's and the HST's on the ECML are some of the best trains operating in this country.

The OP could always travel Cross Country between NCL and YRK for something newer!

yorksrob · 6 Aug 2015

Hadders said:
The OP could always travel Cross Country between NCL and YRK for something newer!

Indeed, and even then he'd still be better off with a HST !

47271 · 6 Aug 2015

47271 · 6 Aug 2015

I'm not sure if the image I uploaded is working other than a link, but it's a British Rail 'Big City Savers' leaflet from 1979. London-Inverness £28 return. I was a small child at the time, but I'm sure this was an advance purchase ticket with reserved seats from way back. Can anyone expand on this?

wibble · 7 Aug 2015

jamie000 said:
Thanks all.

As a relatively new, but prolific, user of the East Coast line I was curious as to how I would cope with costs pre-privatisation as my advance tickets work out as about £20/day from Yrk to NCL rtn which is much cheaper than the season ticket. Everyone always seems to be in favour of re-nationalisation but I just don't have the facts to know which system is better. The East Coast nationalised (until recently) trains are very ancient compared to the other operators, but I tent to go with the cheapest fairs which are First trains most of the time and sometimes Virgin East Coast.

As a rough percentage of rail enthusiasts, which system do you think is favoured?

Nationalisation might be fine, but the government (whatever colour) are likely to want the railways operate on a commercial basis. Any profits would obviously go to investing the system or, as a worse case, be used to cross-subsidise other parts of the DfT or other government departments.

LdsTrn56 · 7 Aug 2015

ok thanks.
Actually the carriages on the ECML are more comfortable than the First trains, which I think are a bit 'megabus'

in comparison. However, XC seem to be quite nice.

Anyway, the main crux of my thoughts was has privatisation and innovation lead to really cheap advance tickets being the norm, because if it has then its worked for me. :oops:

sarahj · 7 Aug 2015

Mind £28 in 1979 was those days a lot more expensive those days rather than looking back today and thinking, mmmm not bad.

I remember the super apex's and such. On many you did have a reservation included. You had to go and get one from the station, and queue. The next thing was phoning a call centre. Sometimes they were clueless. I was once making a booking from Newcastle to kingsX and the person told me I could save £2.50 if I went via Manchester?????.

On the other side of the coin, you could also buy Executive tickets. They were for first class and came with meal vouchers, parking at your departure station, and a one day travelcard.

yorksrob · 7 Aug 2015

jamie000 said:
Anyway, the main crux of my thoughts was has privatisation and innovation lead to really cheap advance tickets being the norm, because if it has then its worked for me.

Well, as has been said, AP was under development, albeit at a very early stage, so it isn't all down to privatisation, although they have very much 'perfected' the process.

That said, there is nothing wrong with using cheaper advanced purchase tickets to get people to travel when there's space available. I just think that the railway today probably relies a bit too much on them, particularly when the off-peak option seems to be very expensive on many routes.

Greeby · 7 Aug 2015

Frankly advances would be better going back to two or three sets of singles and returns. Maybe putting a set each under the same time restriction as the Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares on the flow.

Another thing that doesn't help is the drive towards single TOC advances and the fact that some journeys cannot be booked as a through advance because companies don't want to work together.

Case in point: If you wanted to book from the southern WCML to the North East, you used to have route columns of AP London or AP Derby. Now you can only book via King's Cross or have to split ticket, which of course puts the passenger at risk if there is a delay in connections.

Hadders · 7 Aug 2015

Greeby said:
Frankly advances would be better going back to two or three sets of singles and returns. Maybe putting a set each under the same time restriction as the Anytime, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares on the flow.

Another thing that doesn't help is the drive towards single TOC advances and the fact that some journeys cannot be booked as a through advance because companies don't want to work together.

Case in point: If you wanted to book from the southern WCML to the North East, you used to have route columns of AP London or AP Derby. Now you can only book via King's Cross or have to split ticket, which of course puts the passenger at risk if there is a delay in connections.

There is no risk if a connection is missed on an Advance fare as long as you've allowed the minimum connection time where you change trains.

47271 · 7 Aug 2015

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-R...fz983Q&usg=AFQjCNEp-6N2HrfEbUDOiiD2gkivWsI1lQ

I wasn't so much saying that £28 London-Inverness return was a bargain at 1979 prices, I've no idea, but that it was an early - or the earliest, that's what I'm wondering - example of an advance based on reserved seats and capped availability, and 15 or so years before privatisation.

I can't test the link above on my phone but someone's selling one of the leaflets on ebay. The pic should show the inside which highlights the T&C's and indeed confirms that the promotion bears all the features of a modern advance.

father_jack · 7 Aug 2015

I still have cramp in me hand from writing on the back of the blue "Advance" APTIS tickets in 2003................

Greenback · 8 Aug 2015

yorksrob said:
That said, there is nothing wrong with using cheaper advanced purchase tickets to get people to travel when there's space available. I just think that the railway today probably relies a bit too much on them, particularly when the off-peak option seems to be very expensive on many routes.

BR definitely considered Advance purchase tickets as a way to fill up empty seats and to bring in revenue that they probably wouldn't otherwise have had.

I reckon that the view of TOC's in the privatised era is rather different. I think Advances are seen now as just one factor in the maximisation of revenue. No doubt this has ben helped by the developments in technology that have allowed ever more sophisticated pricing models to be constructed, so that the entire fares basket can be fine tuned as far as possible under the current legislation.

Things are more complicated than just filling empty seats now.

Hadders said:
There is no risk if a connection is missed on an Advance fare as long as you've allowed the minimum connection time where you change trains.

Hadders is correct, people on split tickets have no need to worry about delays and missed connections provided they abide by the MCT.

47271 said:
I can't test the link above on my phone but someone's selling one of the leaflets on ebay. The pic should show the inside which highlights the T&C's and indeed confirms that the promotion bears all the features of a modern advance.

That is indeed an early example, but I've got a feeling that I've read somewhere about similar sorts of tickets between London, Newcastle and vv in the early 1970's. These were only available on a few dedicated services IIRC. I'm racking my brain but I can't remember much else.

BR was quite good at allowing local initiatives, considering it was a nationalised industry which have hardly been renowned for flexibility and innovation!

DaveNewcastle · 8 Aug 2015

sarahj said:
I remember the super apex's and such. On many you did have a reservation included. You had to go and get one from the station, and queue. The next thing was phoning a call centre. . . . .

On the other side of the coin, you could also buy Executive tickets. They were for first class and came with meal vouchers, parking at your departure station, and a one day travelcard.

Ah, yes, I remember too - all that was true, though there was another way to get these cheap Super Apex tickets, and that was to use a Travel Agent who would spend/waste their time on the phone making the booking in exchange for a percentage, and who would provide the tickets in their office or send them out by post.

yorksrob · 8 Aug 2015

Greenback said:
BR definitely considered Advance purchase tickets as a way to fill up empty seats and to bring in revenue that they probably wouldn't otherwise have had.

I reckon that the view of TOC's in the privatised era is rather different. I think Advances are seen now as just one factor in the maximisation of revenue. No doubt this has ben helped by the developments in technology that have allowed ever more sophisticated pricing models to be constructed, so that the entire fares basket can be fine tuned as far as possible under the current legislation.

Things are more complicated than just filling empty seats now.
!

Indeed. It seems to be that we long ago reached the stage where the more sophisticated the yield management model, the worse the outcome for the passenger.

I do think the political imperative not to run empty seats for the sake of revenue will become stronger, particularly as HS2 will cause people to look more critically at capacity on main line services.

30907 · 9 Aug 2015

Greenback said:
That is indeed an early example, but I've got a feeling that I've read somewhere about similar sorts of tickets between London, Newcastle and vv in the early 1970's. These were only available on a few dedicated services IIRC. I'm racking my brain but I can't remember much else.

BR was quite good at allowing local initiatives, considering it was a nationalised industry which have hardly been renowned for flexibility and innovation!

For my first FoS Rover in 1973 I travelled Euston to Glasgow on a Sunday (via Settle) and back overnight (seated!). The tickets were booked train only, on white card with a box for the train time. I'm away from home so can't scan them or see what they were called.
IIRC seat reservations had to be done separately - I had difficulty getting one at Glasgow Central for the return, as it was a Fair holiday weekend and they said the ticket shouldn't have been issued. However I got one....

Rail Ranger · 9 Aug 2015

Greenback,

There was a train called "The Highwayman" in the early 1970s from Newcastle to Finsbury Park (only) with very cheap fares. The name was said to be because the fares were "daylight robbery". I think it was class 40 hauled.

anme · 9 Aug 2015

Greenback said:
BR was quite good at allowing local initiatives, considering it was a nationalised industry which have hardly been renowned for flexibility and innovation!

I suspect BR was better at local initiatives, flexibility and innovation that the railway today, where everything is controlled from Whitehall and under long term contracts!

I think cheap advance tickets would have developed under a nationalised British Rail in the same way as they have for privatised operators. The economics would be the same. One difference is that under nationalisation, fares were not regulated so BR would have had a bit more flexibility. However, I believe that most long distance fares are not regulated today (most advance tickets are for longer journeys) so there's probably little difference.

Hadders · 9 Aug 2015

Many Off Peak Returns are regulated. Sometimes the TOC has been sneaky and made the Super Off Peak Return the regulated fare with more restrictions.

Stats · 9 Aug 2015

jamie000 said:
Hi there

I was wondering for how long cheap advance single tickets have been available, and was this an 'innovation' that came with privatisation or the internet?
J

Virgin Trains (West Coast and Crosscountry) and GNER (East Coast) started selling Advance tickets that we know today for travel from 25 September 2005. Prior to that Virgin had replaced Apex tickets with oneway quota controlled "Virgin Value" advance tickets available 3 days, 7 days and 14 days in advance shortly after they started operating the West Coast franchise but Apex tickets remained on GNER unitl the current Advance tickets replaced them.

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