I'd drop the stops in red.
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Could a Sleeper service run to Wick?
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Clansman
Established Member
Clearly there seems to be a case for it if HITRANS, Caledonian Sleeper and Scotrail are looking at the possibility of it.
How can a direct rail link from the Far North to Edinburgh/Glasgow be a bad proposition - sleeper or now? I'm not saying it's a good proposition, but I think there's a good few potential cases for such a service whether it'd be day or night. Could you elaborate further? As NajaB has said, at least if we are able to highlight the pro's and con's of it then it'll allow us to reach our own conclusions whether the service goes ahead (very unlikely) or not.
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cf111
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It is a nice idea, I would like to see it happen but I can't see the demand. The population of Caithness is shrinking and will continue to shrink while Dounreay winds down, the FNL winds through sparsely populated outposts where weeks can pass without someone boarding or alighting from the existing services, by the time it hits Ross-Shire the demand for the line is as a commuter link to get people to and from Inverness for work and leisure above and beyond anything else. The notion of Orcadians using the service to get to Edinburgh is fanciful, they can fly to the central belt, getting 40% off their ticket using the Air Discount Scheme (also available for Caithness locals wishing to fly to Edinburgh from Wick), take the Kirkwall-Aberdeen service and then drive or take the train from there, or drive down the A9 from Scrabster again, on discounted fares.
We have had a "direct link" in the past, albeit in one direction, when the late northbound service originated at Edinburgh on weekdays. It's of no major benefit as Inverness is probably the easiest major station in Scotland to change trains at and as long as the Glasgow/Edinburgh train isn't too late, ScotRail will hold the Wick service at Inverness so that people make their connection, it also adds yet more time on to an already long journey when the train has to reverse at Inverness to access the line to the north.
There is no harm in discussing the possibility of the service but it's pointless to do so without using a critical eye. I have lived in the far north for almost all my life and would gladly wave the inaugural service off from Thurso with a smile on my face but I don't think I'll ever get the chance.
Firstly, I don't think that CS or Scotrail are looking at it. HITRANS have mooted it, and CS said they would look into it if asked. But they will already know the answer.
Secondly, it doesn't follow that because a local authority suggests something, that there is a clear case for it. Far from it. I imagine that this will have been the idea of one individual who doesn't understand the costs of operating a railway, and has not thought about the potential alternatives.
The reality is that north of Dingwall the line is used by fewer than 200,000 people a year, and around half of those are from stations south of Tain inclusive, most of which will be trips to Inverness. most of the rest is from Wick and Thurso.
I'd be surprised if more than 20,000 trips were to or from the central belt or south thereof, and a good proportion of those will be on rover tickets. I'd be surprised if income for the whole line was more than £2m pa, and very likely to be less.
The current CS sleeper operation costs about £50m a year. A Central belt to Far North sleeper would be in the region of £5m-£10m pa.
Even if, optimistically, the sleeper attracted 50 people a night, and they all paid £100 for their tickets, revenue would be £1.5m pa. Realistically patronage would be about a fifth of that, and average ticket prices around half.
And yet you can fly from Wick to Edinburgh in an hour for £130.
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Bertie the bus
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Railway companies probably get all sorts of crackpots contacting them with proposals. It isnt very polite, or good PR, to reply Dear Sir, Youre an idiot so a bland interesting idea or we would be prepared to run the service subject to funding and a business case means nothing.
Not always. I had a colleague who was looking to book about three weeks in advance and they wanted over £400.
furnessvale
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Indeed, aircraft are subsidised as well.
Clansman
Established Member
Cheers for the numbers on it. I come from an area where extra services are needed during busy times so I guess it must be different from up North. I never assumed a service would be in demand because someone suggests it. I was highlighting that there must be something to the case, if it was at least being noticed by rail operators. But whether that weighs up in terms of usage in finance, I don't think so.
A couple of days ago, I looked at the prices of the Northlink Ferries in advance and to be honest they can be really cheap. I can easily see it would be hard to fill berths on a Sleeper as it would be very hard to compete with fares of £50 for a pod bed, hot buffet, showers, onboard entertainment etc. Linking the Far North and Okrney Islands to Aberdeen is pretty much a captive market with Northlink, so getting value for money on an already money draining sleeper service seems far fetched already.
The Far North line, especially north of Dingwall seems too underfunded, slow running for it to compete with road travel, which is pretty much the norm for Far North residents. Especially given that the A9 is being duelled also makes it increasingly harder. I can only think that if the rail infrastructure gets some investment in the future to compete with the road, and to sway passengers on to trains, then it's difficult to forsee any benefits any additional service would have on the line, let alone a sleeper. I still think a direct link to the Central Belt in future would prove popular in future if the infrastructure was invested in to increase passenger usage. In terms of a sleeper service, as said I think it would only realistically work if there is 1) a demand, 2) regular usage and 3) if the existing railway infrastructure is invested into which would hopefully entice road travellers on to rail. But in reality, services are only really in majority demand to Dingwall, and at a push Invergordon, Ardgay and Tain.
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No, not always. And that was almost certainly return with bags etc.
But I can fly this evening for £130 one way, and if I book 2 months out, it is generally £65 / £75. It's reasonable to assume that to be competitive a one way sleeper fare would have to be the same or less than that. One assumes that the time passengers spend in the terminal is relatively short!
cf111
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Loganair don't charge you for (one item of) hold luggage unlike mainline FlyBe.
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47271
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I've got on flights at Kirkwall a few times, and I'd say the average time taken to get from landside lounge to being seated in the cabin is two minutes.
My Mum used to fly in and out of Wick quite a bit - granted in the days before security was stepped up - and she says it was about the same there.
deltic
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The idea came for the Chair of Hitrans at a time when he was standing in the 2016 Scottish election - so more about getting some publicity for his political campaign than anything to do with reality. He only got 1.8% of vote even coming behind UKIP so it clearly didnt capture the local interest.
adamedwards
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OK, so this is back of the envelope armchair stuff from Hertfordshire, so probably wildly inaccurate, but it will at least be entertaining! I am assuming a reversible train e.g. loco + carriages + DVT or possible extra set of HST power cars or something, so can turn round at Thurso and Georgemas Junction rapidly. Also assuming cutting out many of the stops will balance out a lower acceleration and slower limits in places.
Southbound
Wick 20:00
Thurso: 20:30/20:40
Tain: 23:02
Invergordon: 23:35
Dingwall: 23:51
Inverness: 00:20/01:00
Perth: 04:30/05:00
Stirling: 05:30
Glasgow C: 06:30
This would connect easily with the last ferry from Stromness due Scrabster at 18:45. It allows the train to be a late last train to Inverness a bit like Fort William to Glasgow. Given any stops at Aberdeen would be in the middle of the night, I'm assuming the train runs south along the Highland but non-stop to passengers. I'm assuming Glasgow Central for connections south and easy access to Polmadie.
Northbound
Glasgow C: 23:00
Stirling: 00:00
Perth 00:30
Inverness: 03:30
Invergordon: 05:00
Tain: 05:30
Thurso: 07:30/07:45
Wick: 08:15
I'm assuming a late departure from Glasgow for evening events. Train passes Inverness on the avoiding line, as wrong time for a station stop and to save time reversing. Arrival at Thurso allows time to get to the 08:45 ferry to Orkney.
Anyone out there got anything more accurate to work with?
Southbound
Wick 20:00
Thurso: 20:30/20:40
Tain: 23:02
Invergordon: 23:35
Dingwall: 23:51
Inverness: 00:20/01:00
Perth: 04:30/05:00
Stirling: 05:30
Glasgow C: 06:30
This would connect easily with the last ferry from Stromness due Scrabster at 18:45. It allows the train to be a late last train to Inverness a bit like Fort William to Glasgow. Given any stops at Aberdeen would be in the middle of the night, I'm assuming the train runs south along the Highland but non-stop to passengers. I'm assuming Glasgow Central for connections south and easy access to Polmadie.
Northbound
Glasgow C: 23:00
Stirling: 00:00
Perth 00:30
Inverness: 03:30
Invergordon: 05:00
Tain: 05:30
Thurso: 07:30/07:45
Wick: 08:15
I'm assuming a late departure from Glasgow for evening events. Train passes Inverness on the avoiding line, as wrong time for a station stop and to save time reversing. Arrival at Thurso allows time to get to the 08:45 ferry to Orkney.
Anyone out there got anything more accurate to work with?
gordonthemoron
Established Member
How about a rail tunnel from Thurso to Orkney and the sleeper could terminate in Kirkwall
That was (half-seriously I guess) suggested in the early 20th century when the Royal Navy had a significant presence in the area. The most recent suggestion was for a road tunnel, rather than rail.
backontrack
Established Member
No way am I dropping Alness. It's the largest town in Ross-shire.
Hahaha. Personal bias, I've spent *way* too much time there.
Scotrail have declined to answer the question
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not massively surprised, sales figures are commercial in confidence. You could easily be a bus operator looking to set up a competing service.
anti-pacer
On Moderation
All this talk about cost, use of stock, and some silly suggestions such as hammocks on ex-District Line trains, has got me thinking.
With all the redundant Pacers there will be, they could use them. Take out the x2 seating but leave in the x3 seats, and provide pillows and sleeping bags (low cost). Replace the toilets to make them bigger, take out the partition at the end of both carriages and their side seating. Make one end a shop/bar and the other end a luggage/storage facility. The breakfast option could be a Weetabix drink in a sealed container, with a straw provided due to the bumpiness of Pacer travel, or a breakfast cereal bar, apple or banana.
This would provide the link discussed at a very cheap rate. Yeah it will be an uncomfortable ride but the prospect of Glasgow at 7am will be well worth it.
You could even keep the Northern logo, and just add "Isles Sleeper" underneath!
Genius! I don't know how I dream them up!
With all the redundant Pacers there will be, they could use them. Take out the x2 seating but leave in the x3 seats, and provide pillows and sleeping bags (low cost). Replace the toilets to make them bigger, take out the partition at the end of both carriages and their side seating. Make one end a shop/bar and the other end a luggage/storage facility. The breakfast option could be a Weetabix drink in a sealed container, with a straw provided due to the bumpiness of Pacer travel, or a breakfast cereal bar, apple or banana.
This would provide the link discussed at a very cheap rate. Yeah it will be an uncomfortable ride but the prospect of Glasgow at 7am will be well worth it.
You could even keep the Northern logo, and just add "Isles Sleeper" underneath!
Genius! I don't know how I dream them up!
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This morning's Press and Journal is leading with a story about sleepers to Caithness.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f.../could-sleeper-trains-be-bound-for-caithness/
While the distance obviously makes a sleeper feasible, especially if as the article suggests it's routed via Aberdeen, it's questionable whether or not the demand exists.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f.../could-sleeper-trains-be-bound-for-caithness/
While the distance obviously makes a sleeper feasible, especially if as the article suggests it's routed via Aberdeen, it's questionable whether or not the demand exists.
47271
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It's not clear that demand exists, and neither is it clear who's going to find the money to pay the subsidy, which will be enormous.
BRX
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If it's timed to connect with ferries, stick some intermodal and motorail wagons on it, and compete for the markets that don't have flying as an alternative, and justify the subsidy by taking traffic off the A9....
Blindtraveler
Established Member
I think the seated demand is certainly there.
Clansman
Established Member
I'm still in limbo with this one - one of them could be could be not proposals.
After an interesting discussion on the Caledonian Sleeper thread, about Serco losing money as well as a sleeper's potential beyond HS2, I think that if a Sleeper to Caithness was ever trialled, Scotrail would be in a far better position to finance it. Then if the service was profitable (unlikely) or popular with commuters, then it could be integrated with the Caledonian Sleeper franchise.
Very early days yet though, so I'm not holding my breath.
After an interesting discussion on the Caledonian Sleeper thread, about Serco losing money as well as a sleeper's potential beyond HS2, I think that if a Sleeper to Caithness was ever trialled, Scotrail would be in a far better position to finance it. Then if the service was profitable (unlikely) or popular with commuters, then it could be integrated with the Caledonian Sleeper franchise.
Very early days yet though, so I'm not holding my breath.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though if the demand is primarily for seating, just running a class 158 would be a more viable option.
Clansman
Established Member
Aye but the seated demand would probably be based on similar comfort levels to the Caledonian Sleeper Mk2s, which recline (to a degree) and are generally big and comfy - complimented by the dimmed lights and complimentary eye shades.
A bright lit refurbished 158 with Grammar seating wouldn't go down well that's for sure - especially when you're knackered at 3am and you can't slouch to fall asleep.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suppose a pair of customised 158s could be done (operated overnight, maintained during the day). Would be more expensive than "general" ones but cheaper to operate than LHCS.
Maths appears to be a bit of a weak subject for Mr Roach.
Two quotes from the text:
1) He estimated that a Thurso to Edinburgh rail journey overnight would cover around 328 miles in 7hr 10min.
2) Mr Roach’s report proposed a service with two sleeper carriages and two seated carriages leaving Thurso at 7.30pm, which would reach Inverness at 11.30pm, Aberdeen at 2.30am and Edinburgh at 5.30am.
So 7 hrs 10 mins or 10 hrs, a bit of a difference there. 328 miles for Thurso-Edinburgh via Aberdeen is a tad on the low side too. I make it about 390.
Two quotes from the text:
1) He estimated that a Thurso to Edinburgh rail journey overnight would cover around 328 miles in 7hr 10min.
2) Mr Roach’s report proposed a service with two sleeper carriages and two seated carriages leaving Thurso at 7.30pm, which would reach Inverness at 11.30pm, Aberdeen at 2.30am and Edinburgh at 5.30am.
So 7 hrs 10 mins or 10 hrs, a bit of a difference there. 328 miles for Thurso-Edinburgh via Aberdeen is a tad on the low side too.
I make it about 390.- Status