Could a Sleeper service run to Wick?

[cf111]

thanks - I would love to go up that way - the gf has dived Scapa Flow a couple of times but i haven't been that far north.

The northern isles are my favourite parts of Scotland, particularly Shetland but Orkney is very charming too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why not go for a Galloway Port sleeper , and even an Oban one as there is such a richness of soon to be displaced MK3's ?

Even the suggested Holyhead - Fishguard sleeper - mooted by a bidder pre 2004 could be resurrected ....

All great value sleeper opportunities.

Have you been at the Santogen again?

 

[alex17595]

I think we should fit a rake of Mk3s with these bad boys. (japanese Pod rooms)

 

[ge-gn]

That'd be easier to operate as they could just use the 158s.

It's a pity the pod flatbed concept failed. Or you could convert a couple of Mk3s to longitudinal couchettes (a bit like the Megabus Gold)?

I struggle to understand why the couchette concept has never been used in this country. Its the perfect solution in many ways; it can be night accommodation and then be turned around for day accommodation, so coaches are not sitting idle and are out earning. I know many are not keen on the idea of sharing a compartment with 5 others, but I've personally never had any issues travelling in compartments at night or day in other countries. Or this one for that matter going back to the 80s.

Yet we now have a bus with shared sleeping accommodations for presumably about 20 people all sharing the same gases and this is acceptable! I don't get it..?

 

[ge-gn]

I think we should fit a rake of Mk3s with these bad boys. (japanese Pod rooms)

Why not? It wouldn't suit everyone, but hey, give folk a choice.

 

[47271]

If anyone could show me figures that say that this might work then I'd be all for it.

Meanwhile, both Wick and Thurso have populations of only around 8k each. The entire population of Orkney is 20k, outlying islands the lot, and however pricey Kirkwall-Edinburgh flights are I can't see why - especially in the winter - anyone would go through a 12 hour epic consisting of Northlink Stromness-Scrabster followed by a bus and an inevitably expensive worn out mk3 sleeper as an alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I struggle to understand why the couchette concept has never been used in this country. Its the perfect solution in many ways; it can be night accommodation and then be turned around for day accommodation, so coaches are not sitting idle and are out earning. I know many are not keen on the idea of sharing a compartment with 5 others, but I've personally never had any issues travelling in compartments at night or day in other countries. Or this one for that matter going back to the 80s.

Yet we now have a bus with shared sleeping accommodations for presumably about 20 people all sharing the same gases and this is acceptable! I don't get it..?

Personally I find sharing with one or a few other people quite awkward, but an open coach not. I think the Megabus Gold arrangement (also used by other railways worldwide, like the Thais, Malaysians and some Canadian trains as well as the old DB Talgo Kajueteliegewagen) is very good indeed and should be tried here. You get better privacy that in a compartment, having a curtain across your bunk, a small locker for valuables and it converts to a 1+1 table arrangement during the day.

It's a massive disappointment that the Cally and Westcountry sleepers didn't try it.

 

[Greenback]

If anyone could show me figures that say that this might work then I'd be all for it.

Meanwhile, both Wick and Thurso have populations of only around 8k each. The entire population of Orkney is 20k, outlying islands the lot, and however pricey Kirkwall-Edinburgh flights are I can't see why - especially in the winter - anyone would go through a 12 hour epic consisting of Northlink Stromness-Scrabster followed by a bus and an inevitably expensive worn out mk3 sleeper as an alternative.

I don't think anyone has claimed that such a service would be economically viable. I don;t think that the subsidy required would be a good use of public funds myself, but then I don't know how much money is pumped into things like the ferries and air services that connect the Highlands and Islands to the central belt.

Perhaps in comparison, the money may be insignificant, and benefits would arise for all the intermediate settlements, not just the Orkneys, Wick and Thurso.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps in comparison, the money may be insignificant, and benefits would arise for all the intermediate settlements, not just the Orkneys, Wick and Thurso.

That's an important consideration. As the air links from Wick to Edinburgh aren't that convenient for the non-driver in, for example, Helmsdale.

 

[47271]

When I say 'show me figures' I don't mean just in money terms, I mean whether anyone would be on the thing at all? That's what really puts me off it, but I'm ready to be proved wrong.

I agree that intermediate stations would benefit enormously- this is one of the ace cards of the Caley Sleeper after all - but with the exception of Tain, the strip round Invergordon, and Dingwall, all of which are relatively close to Inverness, populations are absolutely tiny.

 

[Clansman]

Perhaps in comparison, the money may be insignificant, and benefits would arise for all the intermediate settlements, not just the Orkneys, Wick and Thurso.

That's a good point to be fair. To make it more financially viable, not that it is, intermediate stops would be important to a certain degree as the termini. I mean for example you could run it as a day service with night facilities (if that makes sense) as an all nighter service - or in other words a "half and half" accommodation service, as opposed to just a full rake of sleepers and a small seated section. So maybe running as a half and half of sleeper and seated coaches at first which would allow you to run later night services on commuter routes, whilst still providing a smaller number of berths on the full service. That way you'd be able to test the potential usage whilst still maintaining a day service. For example making the train available for general commuter passengers in a similar way the existing Caledonian Sleeper does between Edinburgh to Fort William and Kingussie to Inverness. If you were to leave Edinburgh around 10pm, then you could easily get a good few on for the likes of Falkirk/Stirling/Perth/Dundee/Aberdeen - depending on where you route the service obviously. Adding in the factor of a direct link from the capital to rural communities up North, you can then start to try and sell the berths for the likes of Inverness/Dingwall/Invergordon as either an advance fare or a supplement.

The financial viability of it could generate slightly more than a sleeper service in itself through commuter journeys along the route, but still providing overnight accommodation for those on longer journeys, and/or willing to pay a supplement.

As said by myself and others, it'll only work if there is consistent demand for it as well as any evident benefits such as positive economic impacts from the service itself or the communities it serves.

When I say 'show me figures' I don't mean just in money terms, I mean whether anyone would be on the thing at all? That's what really puts me off it, but I'm ready to be proved wrong.

I agree that intermediate stations would benefit enormously- this is one of the ace cards of the Caley Sleeper after all - but with the exception of Tain, the strip round Invergordon, and Dingwall, all of which are relatively close to Inverness, populations are absolutely tiny.

I'd like to see some figures as well because I'm intrigued at the number of people who 1) sail from Orkney to Scrabster on average, and 2) the number of them connecting on to trains at Thurso. I think they are the most 2 pivitol figures alongside station patronage which could be the deciding factor for any future overnight service.

 

[najaB]

I'd like to see some figures as well because I'm intrigued at the number of people who 1) sail from Orkney to Scrabster on average, and 2) the number of them connecting on to trains at Thurso. I think they are the most 2 pivitol figures alongside station patronage which could be the deciding factor for any future overnight service.

Question has been sent to Scotrail to find out how many rail and ferry tickets they sell. Will let you know if/when they answer.

 

[adamedwards]

I wonder if part of the thinking is that if the train is subsidised, then some air routes will loose theirs, on the ground the train is more environmentally friendly.

Also, Modern Railways says the plan is to run to Glasgow, not Edinburgh, so would this mean Central to connect for the south, ease of servicing at Polmadie, etc?

Finally, anyone able to come up with rough timings given the sleeper is I assume more speed limited than the 158s, perhaps traded off by not stopping at smaller halts?

 

[Clansman]

Question has been sent to Scotrail to find out how many rail and ferry tickets they sell. Will let you know if/when they answer.

Cheers mate. Hopefully you'll get an answer.

Thinking further afield in light of the Sleeper service proposal, would it not be a worthwhile thought to consider integrating national network tickets with the Ferry tickets, should a sleeper service come to fruition? Scotrail already have ticket integration with the ferries to Belfast, Dunoon, Dublin etc as well as the Irish Rail network - surprised they've not done similar with the ferries to Orkney and Shetland from Scrabster (Thurso) and Aberdeen. That would also be a must if they ever ran a sleeper up that way.

 

[najaB]

Scotrail already have ticket integration with the ferries to Belfast, Dunoon, Dublin etc as well as the Irish Rail network - surprised they've not done similar with the ferries to Orkney and Shetland from Scrabster (Thurso) and Aberdeen.

They have: Sail and Rail information page.

 

[Clansman]

They have: Sail and Rail information page.

Ah right. I only checked the saved destinations in their online ticket search - they had Belfast, Dunoon etc but didn't have Orkney down.

 

[najaB]

Ah right. I only checked the saved destinations in their online ticket search - they had Belfast, Dunoon etc but didn't have Orkney down.

Aye. There are some destinations that don't show up online - Edinburgh Airport for example.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if part of the thinking is that if the train is subsidised, then some air routes will loose theirs, on the ground the train is more environmentally friendly.

The train wouldn't be more environmentally friendly.

As I posted earlier, one (or more likely two) locos lugging at least of 300 tonnes of train (and not many people) over Drumochter and Schlod, stopping and starting several times, for 7-8 hours, is going to be far more polluting than 14 tonnes (max) of Dornier in the air for 70 minutes.

 

[Liam]

I'd like to see some figures as well because I'm intrigued at the number of people who 1) sail from Orkney to Scrabster on average

126,000.

http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/SCT01171871341-00.htm

Of the Orcadians I know, if they drive they will go to Scrabster, if they don't they will usually get the train to Aberdeen, despite only 3 sailings per week. Inverness has never been an important destination for the Northern Isles residents, whereas Aberdeen has and still is. Tradition, I suppose.

 

[47271]

126,000.

http://www.transport.gov.scot/report/SCT01171871341-00.htm

Of the Orcadians I know, if they drive they will go to Scrabster, if they don't they will usually get the train to Aberdeen, despite only 3 sailings per week. Inverness has never been an important destination for the Northern Isles residents, whereas Aberdeen has and still is. Tradition, I suppose.

Do you mean '...they will usually get the Shetland ferry to Aberdeen...', in other words the other Northlink route that calls into Kirkwall Hatston a few nights a week?

 

[Liam]

Do you mean '...they will usually get the Shetland ferry to Aberdeen...', in other words the other Northlink route that calls into Kirkwall Hatston a few nights a week?

Yes, the islanders I know, I met on the mainland so I was talking from a viewpoint of them travelling from the mainland to Orkney. They would get the train to Aberdeen (unless they are already there, of course) then the ferry. If they drive, they drive up to Scrabster or Gill's Bay and get the Northlink or Pentland ferry from there.

 

[Liam]

Also, the Aberdeen-Kirkwall-Lerwick ferries are overnight (Only Southbound from Kirkwall) where you can book a berth of a reclining chair if you want, so there is already a sleeper service to/from the Northern Isles.

 

[backontrack]

thanks - I would love to go up that way - the gf has dived Scapa Flow a couple of times but i haven't been that far north.

I love Orkney.

 

[backontrack]

That's an important consideration. As the air links from Wick to Edinburgh aren't that convenient for the non-driver in, for example, Helmsdale.

Good point. I expect a good chunk of the revenue would come from Beauly, MOO, Conon, Dingwall, Alness, Invergordon and Tain. I imagine this would be the stopping pattern:

Wick
Thurso
Georgemas Junction/Halkirk if reopened (both x)
Helmsdale
Brora
Golspie
Lairg
Ardgay
Tain
Fearn (x)
Invergordon
Alness (then Evanton, x, if reopened)
Dingwall
Conon Bridge
Muir of Ord
Beauly
Inverness (SDO)
Nairn
Forres
Elgin
Keith
Huntly
Insch
Inverurie
Dyce
Aberdeen (SDO)
Portlethen
Laurencekirk
Arbroath (SDO)
Dundee (SDO)
Kirkcaldy (SDO)
Gateway (SDO)
Haymarket (SDO)
Edinburgh

 

[najaB]

I imagine this would be the stopping pattern...

I'd actually route it via Aberdeen seeing as I suspect there are as many business links to Aberdeen as there are to the Central Belt. As a guess upthread I figured that it will get to Aberdeen around 2/3am and could wait there until 5am still giving you an arrival into Edinburgh before 8am.

I was thinking about it some more and you could leave one of the locos and a carriage in Aberdeen so that people don't have to get out of bed too early (and it's not as remote if the remaining loco did have problems).

One other thing that came to mind though: is the Inverness RETB console manned overnight?

 

[Bald Rick]

I know this is a rail forum, but it seems that there is general support on these pages for a service that would take considerably longer, cost considerably more to provide (and thus require more taxpayer support) and be more environmentally damaging than feasible alternatives.

I mean, really?

 

[najaB]

I mean, really?

I also doubt it will see the light of day (or gloom of night) but that doesn't mean there's no merit in discussing it. Thrash the ideas around, see what the best we can make of it and if still doesn't stack up then we can be satisfied that it definitely was a no-goer.

And I'm sure you would agree, it has more merit than some of the infrastructure projects that get suggested (Dumfries-Stranraer I'm looking at you). Even if they did make a go of it, it would only be a small amount of money lost.

 

[cf111]

I know this is a rail forum, but it seems that there is general support on these pages for a service that would take considerably longer, cost considerably more to provide (and thus require more taxpayer support) and be more environmentally damaging than feasible alternatives.

I mean, really?

It'll never happen, it's complete madness. The train would be running close to empty for the majority of the year. The 1632 Thurso-Inverness is a service I use regularly and on a busy winter evening there are about 15 people on board, this train already provides a late connection to Aberdeen (1 change), Glasgow (1 change), Edinburgh (2/3 changes) and connects to the Sleeper.

The thought of pouring taxpayers' money into an empty train in a region where the council now want £30 a year off people to empty their garden waste bins, on top of a 3% rise in council tax, is an unpalatable proposition.

 

[deltic]

Good point. I expect a good chunk of the revenue would come from Beauly, MOO, Conon, Dingwall, Alness, Invergordon and Tain. I imagine this would be the stopping pattern:

Wick
Thurso
Georgemas Junction/Halkirk if reopened (both x)
Helmsdale
Brora
Golspie
Lairg
Ardgay
Tain
Fearn (x)
Invergordon
Alness (then Evanton, x, if reopened)
Dingwall
Conon Bridge
Muir of Ord
Beauly
Inverness (SDO)
Nairn
Forres
Elgin
Keith
Huntly
Insch
Inverurie
Dyce
Aberdeen (SDO)
Portlethen
Laurencekirk
Arbroath (SDO)
Dundee (SDO)
Kirkcaldy (SDO)
Gateway (SDO)
Haymarket (SDO)
Edinburgh

You wouldnt get much sleep with all those stops!

 

[Bald Rick]

And I'm sure you would agree, it has more merit than some of the infrastructure projects that get suggested (Dumfries-Stranraer I'm looking at you). Even if they did make a go of it, it would only be a small amount of money lost.

In my eyes* it is very much in the same category as Dumfries - Stranraer. No discernible benefit, and clearly a worse proposition than many potential alternatives. It fails on the most basic analysis by anyone who understands the transport industry. If any taxpayers money was used to even investigate such a service, it would be a woeful misuse of public funds. (See Carmarthen - Aberystwth).

* my eyes possibly have the advantage of having worked in the sleeper management team.