£1000 bill for travelling on Virgin Trains on a 'LM only' ticket.

[SPADTrap]

- pity the layman.

If only we all had RJs knowledge!

 

[O L Leigh]

Because £1000 is a lot of money, and charging that (even though it is the correct amount) is somehow poor customer service.

39 people travelling together is a lot of people. If I was arranging rail tickets for a group of that size I would expect that the bill would be well in excess of £1000. As others have pointed out, their treatment by the Virgin TM was lenient bordering on generous. That actually smacks of good customer service to me.

The mistake was punished in a fair and equitable manner. That the excess ran to four figures is not a function of the service received but of the size of the group.

After all, Mr Branson is a family man, don't you know? :roll:

So...? Mr Branson is a businessman, don't you know?

O L Leigh

 

[Deerfold]

Virgin can call it by any name they like - whatever it was, I got clobbered. Personally, I prefer the term 'mugging'.

So did you end up paying more than someone who'd bought the Anytime version of your ticket?

 

[Aictos]

No different from coach travel!
If I buy a megacoach ticket can I use it on National Express coach?
No of course I cant so why do people buy the cheapest train tickets available but expect them to be the same as the more expensive tickets?

I quite agree, If I was eligible for free BA flights as a employee would it mean I get free flights on Easyjet too? Of course not so quite agree with your post.

Every time I've used that line, there have been very clear announcements "Tickets marked London Midland Only are not valid on this service" on the platforms. It also shows on the screens. If people are incapable of following instructions, then that is not the train company's fault.

Well said, if people are incapable of following the most basic of instructions then it's hardly the fault of Virgin Trains, East Coast are the same out of London who advise you that tickets marked First Hull Trains, Grand Central or Great Northern only cannot be used on East Coast services as they are not valid - same applies to this group, they were sold exactly what they asked for so they knew they were only valid on London Midland as they would have been advised of this at the point of purchase, as they decided to use their tickets on a invalid service, the Virgin Trains TM did nothing wrong and gave them a choice to excess to the next station and get the right train from there or as they chose to stay on.

 

[Flamingo]

Given the size of the group, over half a carriage full, and the impact this would have had on the comfort and travelling envoirnment of the passengers who had paid the correct fare, £25 a head would not be unreasonable to correct their mistake for this length of a journey. After all, this is little more than the cost of a PF in Zone 1, which is also for a genuine mistake.

The only other long-term alternative is for the companies on that route (as this is where it ends up) to abandon TOC specific tickets, and just have an off-peak or peak fare. Of course, this is removing all competition on the route.

For that size of a group i would be very surprised if they had not made seat reservations, which should have been a clue which train they were supposed to be on...

 

[bb21]

Arguably, I should have checked the validity of the off-peak return, but I'm a busy person, and getting such information online isn't exactly easy.

Funny that. It took me all of 10 seconds to look it up on NRE, who correctly tells me that an Anytime ticket is required.

I have sympathy for people who genuinely get confused by complex ticketing issues, but for something as straight-forward as this, how about taking some responsibility yourself instead of blaming someone else for your mistake?

You only paid what you should have paid for travelling on that service. It could be argued that letting you off would be insanely unfair to all the others who paid their correct fare on that service.

 

[Seacook]

For that size of a group i would be very surprised if they had not made seat reservations, which should have been a clue which train they were supposed to be on...

I could be very wrong but I was under the impression that you can't reserve seats on LM services.

 

[Yew]

But they should have questioned what 'London Midland only' meant when they received the tickets.

Only valid for a journey from london to the midlands

 

[Minilad]

Have to say that it would not cross my mind that a train departing London just after 3 pm would be anything but an Off Peak service ....

Absolutely this. Another ridiculous scam. Creeping changes that force back door price rises

 

[bb21]

Absolutely this. Another ridiculous scam. Creeping changes that force back door price rises

Seems like a common thing now leaving London northbound to many intercity destinations not of extreme distance on the former Saver fares - typically 1500 from King's Cross and Euston, 1515 from St Pancake. Liverpool Street and Paddington are more generous.

The DfT has a lot to answer for in that respect.

 

[Yew]

Have to say that it would not cross my mind that a train departing London just after 3 pm would be anything but an Off Peak service ....

Ahh, but you've never 'flown' virgin trains... Since they cant put off peak fares up, as they're regulated, they have been eating away at their validity since 1997..

 

[NSEFAN]

39 people travelling together is a lot of people. If I was arranging rail tickets for a group of that size I would expect that the bill would be well in excess of £1000. As others have pointed out, their treatment by the Virgin TM was lenient bordering on generous. That actually smacks of good customer service to me.

The mistake was punished in a fair and equitable manner. That the excess ran to four figures is not a function of the service received but of the size of the group.
...

So...? Mr Branson is a businessman, don't you know?

I was actually agreeing with you, using a sarcastic response.

My comment about Mr Branson being a family man was referencing back to a similar story from a while back. A family boarded a Virgin service with incorrect tickets, and made a fuss in the local rag after having been charged the correct fare. They appealed to beardie to refund them the cost of the ticket, justifying their pleas with arguments worded as "Well, Mr Branson is a family man" !

 

[yorkie]

Seems like a common thing now leaving London northbound to many intercity destinations not of extreme distance on the former Saver fares - typically 1500 from King's Cross and Euston, 1515 from St Pancake. Liverpool Street and Paddington are more generous.

The DfT has a lot to answer for in that respect.

Indeed. This is completely off-topic, and is simply that fares regulation is ridiculously weak and allows for ~3pm trains out of London to be considered "peak". It has nothing to do with this thread which is about a charge made when passengers used the wrong operator.

 

[talltim]

The red of Virgin trains is very distinctive too...

Yeah, that's why so many people I know think Virgin still run XC...

 

[extendedpaul]

Indeed. This is completely off-topic, and is simply that fares regulation is ridiculously weak and allows for ~3pm trains out of London to be considered "peak". It has nothing to do with this thread which is about a charge made when passengers used the wrong operator.

Fair comment, but I suspect that if a passenger with an off peak ticket ticket travelling just after 3 pm and charged £150 for a new ticket went to the press, the coverage would not be favourable to the rail industry and could well be similar to the angle in the Evening Standard's story. It would take a lot fewer passengers to come up with a similar headline figure and how many people would expect that 3 -4 pm is considered a peak travelling hour ?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Funny that. It took me all of 10 seconds to look it up on NRE, who correctly tells me that an Anytime ticket is required.

I have sympathy for people who genuinely get confused by complex ticketing issues, but for something as straight-forward as this, how about taking some responsibility yourself instead of blaming someone else for your mistake?

You only paid what you should have paid for travelling on that service. It could be argued that letting you off would be insanely unfair to all the others who paid their correct fare on that service.

For a start, what's 'NRE'? And why should I have to start looking up websites just to buy a ticket? I'm not blaming anyone else, but the lack of barrier checks at Euston certainly contributed to it. Personally I think it's insanely unfair that I end up being charged £150 for travelling seven minutes after what Virgin deems to be 'peak' time...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The trouble is people won't take responsibilities for their own actions, everything that goes wrong for them is someone else's fault.

It's common place now that ticketing on the railways is a lot more complex than it used to be and when people buy a ticket that is ridiculously cheap compared to other fares on that route the onus on them is to check the restrictions and abide by them especially with online bookings where they tick a box to say they've understood this.

There is a common misconception that ticketing is a lot more complicated than ever before.

This is not always the case.

If I look back in some old fares manuals from 20 or so years ago I see there are a far greater number of ticket types for a journey from Leeds to London than now, all called different things and attracting different conditions, booking horizons, reservation requirements and excess fare arrangements. Whilst the issue of time restrictions with Off-Peak tickets is complicated, some things are not. Apex, Super Apex, Advance, Super Advance, Saver, Standard Open.....

When checking tickets at work and I point out a ticket "Route Via Burnley" is not valid via Manchester, for example, I am often told how it isn't clear (despite being in wording on the ticket right next to the destination), and that it was never like this under BR and how ridiculous it is to have tickets with different routes (Route descriptors have been around for some considerable time). When asking to see non existent railcards, or pointing out that the Advance ticket someone has is invalid I am often told how it is all money grabbing train companies and how BR was never like this, and how if it was nationalised these problems would go away over night.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Seems like a common thing now leaving London northbound to many intercity destinations not of extreme distance on the former Saver fares - typically 1500 from King's Cross and Euston, 1515 from St Pancake. Liverpool Street and Paddington are more generous.

The DfT has a lot to answer for in that respect.

That's basically what caught me. I had no idea that the peak would end as early as 15.00 and I'm sure at some point in the past it was something like 15.59 or possibly 15.30. So again, Virgin have to take some of the blame for moving the goalposts...

 

[TheEdge]

For a start, what's 'NRE'?

National Rail Enquiries, it's not exactly a niche website.

And why should I have to start looking up websites just to buy a ticket?

You don't have to but if you are entering into what is effectively a contract for provision of a service it might be worth while checking what can and can't be done, especially when buying something discounted.

Personally I think it's insanely unfair that I end up being charged £150 for travelling seven minutes after what Virgin deems to be 'peak' time...

The railways do really seem to be the only industry where discretion is expected of the companies and when it isn't given it's basis for a complaint. I know the airline analogy is done to death but if I wanted to get on a different flight to the one I'd booked I'd expect to pay again and anything else is a bonus. Most people seem to expect the railways to be in reverse.

 

[infobleep]

Every time I've used that line, there have been very clear announcements "Tickets marked London Midland Only are not valid on this service" on the platforms. It also shows on the screens. If people are incapable of following instructions, then that is not the train company's fault.

The London Midland Only tickets provide a much cheaper alternative so I hope you are not arguing for them to be withdrawn from sale?

Interestingly there are no announcements saying tickets marked Virgin only and not allowed on this service in respect of London Midland trains and at Euston of London Overground trains either.

Do people accidentally board a slower London Midland train with a Virgin advanced ticket?

 

[infobleep]

Given the size of the group, over half a carriage full, and the impact this would have had on the comfort and travelling envoirnment of the passengers who had paid the correct fare, £25 a head would not be unreasonable to correct their mistake for this length of a journey. After all, this is little more than the cost of a PF in Zone 1, which is also for a genuine mistake.

The only other long-term alternative is for the companies on that route (as this is where it ends up) to abandon TOC specific tickets, and just have an off-peak or peak fare. Of course, this is removing all competition on the route.

For that size of a group i would be very surprised if they had not made seat reservations, which should have been a clue which train they were supposed to be on...

London Midland have **** where the seat reservation codes should be. So yes the train service is stated but not the seat.

Do we know the train time of the service involved? Was it running late? Did it leave at the same time as a London Midland service? Did the person just not spot the times on the reservation tickets?

Perhaps the organiser was dyslexic and misread it. Perhaps he just got the tickets in a hurry and didn't get round to looking at them until he boarded the wrong train. Who knows if we were not there.

 

[Flamingo]

London Midland have **** where the seat reservation codes should be. So yes the train service is stated but not the seat.

Do we know the train time of the service involved? Was it running late? Did it leave at the same time as a London Midland service? Did the person just not spot the times on the reservation tickets?

Perhaps the organiser was dyslexic and misread it. Perhaps he just got the tickets in a hurry and didn't get round to looking at them until he boarded the wrong train. Who knows if we were not there.

And the other points I raised?

 

[SS4]

It's always an honest mistake when one gets caught? Perhaps some of the more seasoned rail staff will be able to tell us a way to find the difference between a genuine mistake and someone trying it on (I suspect the answer is "there isn't one")

 

[anme]

Isn't it funny how people 'accidentally' board trains which are faster, or 'accidentally' sit in first class....

Making a mistake to get something better. Is it really a mistake?

(I'm in a cynical mood today!)

Plenty of people board Southern services with a Gatwick Express ticket. Is that really a mistake?

 

[LateThanNever]

Ignorance of the law is never considered an acceptable defence in law, and the same applies to contracts too. If you enter into a contract you are bound by the terms of that contract whether you choose to familiarise yourself with them or not.

Buying a ticket for rail travel means that you are entering into a contract with the rail companies, which includes agreeing to abide by ticketing restrictions. I see no reason why ignorance should be considered an acceptable defence. If you buy a ticket that has restrictions, whether they be time, route or operator specific, it is the customer's responsibility to understand what those restrictions mean and how they affect their travel plans. I really can't see the complication anywhere in that.

With regard to the incident under discussion, whether it was an error of omission or a deliberate attempt to defraud the system by obtaining a service they hadn't paid for, I think they were dealt with very fairly indeed. It appears that they were charged the correct fare for the journey that they actually made. Where's the complaint in that.

O L Leigh

If you rely on the law of contract you are on a hiding to nothing.
I always buy my tickets on the condition that my money is accepted by the railway to the exclusion of their conditions - and exclusively on my own arbitrary conditions. So if the railway do not understand that, then having paid a fare, I'll travel on any train I wish!
It has to be different to work.
It is just unfortunate that the railway's conditions are so often unclear and poorly administered... And of course with strict liability there is no incentive for the railway to improve this as the 'contract' is always in the railway's favour.

 

[island]

If you rely on the law of contract you are on a hiding to nothing.
I always buy my tickets on the condition that my money is accepted by the railway to the exclusion of their conditions - and exclusively on my own arbitrary conditions. So if the railway do not understand that, then having paid a fare, I'll travel on any train I wish!

No, it doesn't work that way.

If you purport to purchase your ticket under different conditions to which the railway wishes to sell it, it means there is no consensus ad idem between the parties, no contract exists, and you do not have permission to travel.

 

[455driver]

If you rely on the law of contract you are on a hiding to nothing.
I always buy my tickets on the condition that my money is accepted by the railway to the exclusion of their conditions - and exclusively on my own arbitrary conditions. So if the railway do not understand that, then having paid a fare, I'll travel on any train I wish!
It has to be different to work.
It is just unfortunate that the railway's conditions are so often unclear and poorly administered... And of course with strict liability there is no incentive for the railway to improve this as the 'contract' is always in the railway's favour.

And you make the ticket seller aware of this before buying the tickets do you?
Can you show us a copy of this contract you have between yourself and the railway?
Dont forget that a verbal contract isnt worth the paper its written on!

 

[yorkie]

Plenty of people board Southern services with a Gatwick Express ticket. Is that really a mistake?

Is there such a thing as a "Gatwick Express ticket"?

Gatwick Express route (red route on the Southern map) has been operated by Southern for about 6 years now, so your example may have been relevant in the past, when there used to be separate operators, but no longer is applicable.

There is no such thing as a Gatwick Express only ticket, though I'm quite happy to accept there probably was back in the days when this route was run by a separate Company owned by National Express Group.

 

[Flamingo]

If you rely on the law of contract you are on a hiding to nothing.
I always buy my tickets on the condition that my money is accepted by the railway to the exclusion of their conditions - and exclusively on my own arbitrary conditions. So if the railway do not understand that, then having paid a fare, I'll travel on any train I wish!
It has to be different to work.
It is just unfortunate that the railway's conditions are so often unclear and poorly administered... And of course with strict liability there is no incentive for the railway to improve this as the 'contract' is always in the railway's favour.

Good luck with that :roll:

 

[yorkie]

It's always an honest mistake when one gets caught?

No, it isn't. If in doubt, it's best to treat the customer as having made a mistake, which is exactly what happened in the case in question.

Perhaps some of the more seasoned rail staff will be able to tell us a way to find the difference between a genuine mistake and someone trying it on (I suspect the answer is "there isn't one")

If someone is trying it on, it will get, in the words of a wise Guard...

....my Spider-Sense tingling...