09.47 Leeds To Carlisle

[30907]

That looks like a fairly decent proportion of entries at Ribblehead and Garsdale to me. Certainly too many to justify abandoning them throughout most of Sunday, just to run a "fast" train that isn't that much faster anyway.

Unless I am much mistaken, the Sunday fast train is a recent innovation on the basic timetable, so it's hardly "abandoning" people.

 

[yorksrob]

Unless I am much mistaken, the Sunday fast train is a recent innovation on the basic timetable, so it's hardly "abandoning" people.

I'm less concerned with the history of Sunday services on the route, than with the large gaps between services at those stations.

By all means innovate, but do so by putting on an adequate service to all stations first.

 

[trainmananthon]

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019


Some interesting changes!

 

[Starmill]

It would seem that the wishes of those in the thread have been answered! The one train has been made later that calls at halts in the middle of nowhere and another added.

In exchange, there will be no fast service competing with the 1008 or 1208 from Leeds to Glasgow.

An 'all stations' train takes about 2h 45, with the current 0947 taking 2h 30.

And I hope against hope that they make that 1720 pick up only if it calls at Shipley or Keighley.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Should the service for occasional hikers, to stations where there is a very small surrounding population like Dent and Ribblehead be a high priority for improvements? Or should rolling stock and track capacity be prioritsed for allocation to fast-interurban services between some of our largest cities and commuter routes that are very overcrowded?

I've never suggested that the stopping services catering for fell walkers should be seen as a high priority by either the TOC's or Network Rail. However an improvement in such services would result in increasing numbers of fell walkers and other day trippers using the train.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A service from Leeds at 0847 and 1047 seems good enough to me to be honest. How long do you want to spend in the dales? A pair of extra services per day are planned on this route I think, but fundamentally a very small number of hikers will not be a higher priority than the Skipton to Leeds section of route (for example).

An average walk taking in one of the Three Peaks would take around four to five hours from either Horton or Ribblehead. There are also two really good walks from Dent station that take between four and four and a half hours. However none of those timings include a lunch stop in a pub or a pint at the end of the walk etc so ideally you'd be looking to spend five to six hours in the Dales.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Really? You mean people use their cars instead of trains not becuase they have already got them, they have high fixed costs, becuase it's government policy for trains to be expensive so that the majority of the population (car users) don't have to pay for them and because railways have suffered years of under-investment and are often unable to match car journey times?

The only reason walkers don't use the train is because that train doesn't stop?

The road north of Settle in the direction of Ribblehead is not exactly the quickest and even at Horton car parking is limited to 50 spaces so yes in my opinion fell walkers would be much more likely to take the train if there were improvements made to the service,

I know you won't like reading this but my wife and I have three cars but still try and use public transport where we can. Once you reach a certain age the fixed costs of running cars tend to fall as the major cost is insurance.

 

[yorksrob]

It would seem that the wishes of those in the thread have been answered! The one train has been made later that calls at halts in the middle of nowhere and another added.

In exchange, there will be no fast service competing with the 1008 or 1208 from Leeds to Glasgow.

An 'all stations' train takes about 2h 45, with the current 0947 taking 2h 30.

And I hope against hope that they make that 1720 pick up only if it calls at Shipley or Keighley.

There now seem to be two expresses going the other way though, and many services seem to have been speeded up by skipping stops.

 

[yorksrob]

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019


Some interesting changes!

Whereabouts can I find these timetables and is there one for the Hallam line somewhere ?

 

[bradford758]

Note: the Gargrave and Long Preston stops are covered by Bentham line services.

Sent from my 4009X

 

[Harpers Tate]

I believe those times are extracted from a Draft proposal for May 18; a proposal which on the face of it appears to have many flaws, and I guess may yet change. In respect of another route entirely, service frequencies in various places do not come close to meeting the franchise specification. Now to what extent that represents error, oversight, or agreement to deviate, I couldn't say.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whereabouts can I find these timetables and is there one for the Hallam line somewhere ?

Yes, I'd like to know that too!

 

[70014IronDuke]

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019


Some interesting changes!

I agree, very interesting changes. IF implemented, I think this is a significant improvement on the current TT for a number of reasons:

a) most especially, it is far more user friendly for potential commuters into Leeds (and Bradford). It vastly reduces the current gap in afternoon departures, and with the evening Ribblehead delayed by 30 mins, opens up the possibilities for returning to Hellifield/Settle from further afield

b) the 07.46 ex-Leeds makes for a far better (earlier) arrival in Carlisle, makng it more useful for travel northwards (depending on connections). I've long believed a train is needed at this time from Leeds.

c) the late express departure from Carlisle would also facilitate later travel from Clydeside and Dumfries.

Interestingly too, instead of stopper and one 'express' on the down in the morning, this timetable has (sort of) two semi-fasts. The 07.46 avoids some of the 'middle' stops, while providing the Eden Valley stops with an earlier shoppers' train into Carlisle, while the later 09.16 omits the Eden Valley stops - giving a marginally earlier arrival than an all stations.

Shame that there is no departure Carlisle - apart from the pre-dawn turn - until 09.27 though (what happens to the first arrival from Leeds? Does it hang around for an hour or waht?).

A compromise, of course, but a significant advance over what we have now, IMO.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe those times are extracted from a Draft proposal for May 18; a proposal which on the face of it appears to have many flaws, and I guess may yet change. ...

Could you enumerate?

 

[70014IronDuke]

That looks like a fairly decent proportion of entries at Ribblehead and Garsdale to me. Certainly too many to justify abandoning them throughout most of Sunday, just to run a "fast" train that isn't that much faster anyway.

Last time I was at Ribblehead for the 07.xx to Leeds there were about 5-7 folks for that train, not counting me. It was in the day when it arrived ECS. If those numbers are unchanged today we are talking about 72 passengers a week, or 3,600 per year from this service alone. (assuming they all come back !). So something like 20% of all your Ribblehead passengers can be identified immediately as 'hard-core' commuters and definitely not ramblers. (I accept that this is something of an extrapolation from a single observation maybe 10 years ago.)

How many others of the 18,000 will be 'regular' travelles, as opposed to ramblers-tourists, I don't know, but frankly, I agree with other posters - keep the currrent 09.47 as a 'fast' (sort-of) unless there is strong evidence that it does not need to be fast and can gain more revenue by losing its class 1 status.

 

[yorksrob]

Last time I was at Ribblehead for the 07.xx to Leeds there were about 5-7 folks for that train, not counting me. It was in the day when it arrived ECS. If those numbers are unchanged today we are talking about 72 passengers a week, or 3,600 per year from this service alone. (assuming they all come back !). So something like 20% of all your Ribblehead passengers can be identified immediately as 'hard-core' commuters and definitely not ramblers. (I accept that this is something of an extrapolation from a single observation maybe 10 years ago.)

How many others of the 18,000 will be 'regular' travelles, as opposed to ramblers-tourists, I don't know, but frankly, I agree with other posters - keep the currrent 09.47 as a 'fast' (sort-of) unless there is strong evidence that it does not need to be fast and can gain more revenue by losing its class 1 status.

I'm not entirely sure of your logic there. Surely the point is that these are travellers using the station, regardless of whether they are ramblers or not. It might be in the middle of nowhere, however being on a main road I think a fair few people railhead there. Usually when I get off there a few people drive off in their cars.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Could you enumerate?

I believe I have offered one example (phrased in general terms); I know of at least two other service patterns that are likewise and I therefore suspect these issues may be fairly widespread.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm not entirely sure of your logic there. Surely the point is that these are travellers using the station, regardless of whether they are ramblers or not. It might be in the middle of nowhere, however being on a main road I think a fair few people railhead there. Usually when I get off there a few people drive off in their cars.

Ingleton comes to mind.

 

[Cletus]

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019


Some interesting changes!

So there's no 0849 an 0947 ex-Leeds?

Or are these just the new/altered timings?

 

[30907]

So there's no 0849 an 0947 ex-Leeds?

Or are these just the new/altered timings?

This is the new proposed timetable. So 0746 and 0912 replace 0849 and 0947.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147558&page=6
Posts #79 onwards also show the Lancaster trains which gives the bigger picture.

 

[Cletus]

Ok, thanks.

 

[Condor7]

This is the new proposed timetable. So 0746 and 0912 replace 0849 and 0947.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147558&page=6
Posts #79 onwards also show the Lancaster trains which gives the bigger picture.

From a personal point of view this would be a disaster. My local station in Lazonby & Kirkoswald, and my family live in Leeds. If I read this correctly it would make coming up for the day on the train almost impossible.

They would have to get up really early, which with young children would be a nightmare to catch the 07.46 or get the 11.20 which means they would not arrive until after 13.30 given us just a few hours before having to return home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't understand why you would want such a complex stopping pattern on a route with such an infrequent service. Is it just that an additional unit and crew would be needed if they all ran all stations?

I get the desire for a proper express, but missing the odd station is just confusing.

Actually, looking at that timetable, it's *so* close to a proper two-hourly clockface service, why can't such a service simply be implemented? I'd expect it would increase passenger numbers by being clearer and easy to understand.

And what has Gargrave done (certainly no more rural than Dent or Ribblehead) to deserve almost getting Parlyed?

 

[sd0733]

Actually, looking at that timetable, it's *so* close to a proper two-hourly clockface service, why can't such a service simply be implemented? I'd expect it would increase passenger numbers by being clearer and easy to understand.

And what has Gargrave done (certainly no more rural than Dent or Ribblehead) to deserve almost getting Parlyed?

Gargrave will get calls off the Morecambe/Lancaster services so will still have stops just very few to Carlisle.

agree tho with the clockface it does look an incredibly confusing timetable to be honest! I wonder if there are still a lot of freight paths in the system albeit unused having a part to play on the S and c section as you'd think it would be easier to have clockface between Skipton and Leeds to interlink with the we the electric clockface timetable there.
It's still an improvement on the current tt to be fair, altho I did like the 15:03 express!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

This is the new proposed timetable. So 0746 and 0912 replace 0849 and 0947.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147558&page=6
Posts #79 onwards also show the Lancaster trains which gives the bigger picture.

But the proposed service is worse than the current one because at present there's effectively an hourley Leeds-Carlisle service at the times most daytrippers wish to travel, with departures at 0849, 0947 and 1049. Three trains spaced 60 minutes apart is surely far better than two trains spaced 90 minutes apart.

A further issue for the leisure market is that most off-peak and rover tickets on the S&C only permit travel after 0845, which make the current 0849 ideal. Unless there's an exemption, it could prove considerably more costly to travel on the proposed 0746.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm not entirely sure of your logic there. Surely the point is that these are travellers using the station, regardless of whether they are ramblers or not. It might be in the middle of nowhere, however being on a main road I think a fair few people railhead there. Usually when I get off there a few people drive off in their cars.

What I was trying to say was that a good percentage of Ribblehead's passenger count can be put down to commuters, who need a train (or two) in in the morning, and a train or two back around 17.00, - and not a lot in between, nice though that may be.

But, on reflection, my experience is too old to be worth much here. A better argument is the one that applies to all rail links: what are their paticular sources of (passenger) revenues?
Is it

a) commuter, into the local job -rich town(s)/city(ies)?
b) what you might call 'strategic' inter-city
c) local, but essential travel,
d) leisure/tourism trips

Under BR rationalisation, most lines ended up as predominantly a or b, or a combination of both (eg the ECML has done away with c on most of Edinburgh - KX. On other lines, like the Berks and Hants, it doesn't realy like 'local' calls - exept when they are commuter times.)

But the S&C is kind of unusual in that it can't really decide where it's main markets are. OR perhaps better put, it's revival is based on a kind of c) and d) but with a dollop of commuter travel at both ends.

But then, hankering in the background, is the potential for inter-city travel, not just Leeds/Bradford to Carlisle, but, even if only by canging trains, beyond at both ends. This is a market that only just kept the line alive in the 1970s, but has since largely been abandonned, except for the half-hearted attempt with the one 'express' sprinter each way.

It's now almost 50 years after BR virtually closed the line (two trains a day hardly constitutes a service, does it?), and 25 years into the general trend to growing passenger traffic across the country. In view of this, personally I think more effort should be made to see what potential there is for inter-city traffic - both in terms of improving train frequency and raising line speed.

Inevitably, given the constraints of stock, that means wayside stations like Ribblehead, Dent etc, even Langwathby (which is not a bad traffic centre in S&C terms) are not going to see every train stop. One even might argue that a real attempt at winning such traffic should mean dropping the Settle and Appleby stops - though such a radical move is hardly likely given the limited service and the fact that with the low line speed, such stops cost only 2-3 minutes each.

 

[70014IronDuke]

From a personal point of view this would be a disaster. My local station in Lazonby & Kirkoswald, and my family live in Leeds. If I read this correctly it would make coming up for the day on the train almost impossible.

They would have to get up really early, which with young children would be a nightmare to catch the 07.46 or get the 11.20 which means they would not arrive until after 13.30 given us just a few hours before having to return home.

Really? Inconvenience I could understand, but come on, I see toddlers and babies at airports for 06.00 flights whenever I fly out early. They have obviously got up at 04.00 or earlier.

All the new timetable - if indeed it is implemented - requires is your family to go forward ONE hour to catch the 07.47 instead of the 08.47 (or whatever the exact minute number is) - I find it difficult, unless you are editing the Daily Mail, to deem that a 'disaster' or 'nightmare'.

But whatever, every timetable is a compromise, and there will be winners and losers with any change.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But the proposed service is worse than the current one because at present there's effectively an hourley Leeds-Carlisle service at the times most daytrippers wish to travel, with departures at 0849, 0947 and 1049. Three trains spaced 60 minutes apart is surely far better than two trains spaced 90 minutes apart.
.....

Not if you want to get from Leeds or Bradford to Carlisle by 10.30 it's not. The 07.46 will make this possible - without catching the pre-dawn all shacks. I suspeect that will prove to be a vast improvement on the current timetable for many.

But if you have to pay more for it, well, that might just disincentivise folks and it might not work, Ia agree.

 

[xotGD]

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019


Some interesting changes!

What runs up Airedale ahead of the 18:19? If it is the first train after the current 17:56 Skipton, it will be rammed - it is already full and standing at 18:06.

 

[trainmananthon]

What runs up Airedale ahead of the 18:19? If it is the first train after the current 17:56 Skipton, it will be rammed - it is already full and standing at 18:06.

Couldn't say to be honest. I've only seen the new timetable draft for the S&C. I haven't seen what changes are happening to the Morecambe and Airedale timetables.

Perhaps contacting the Aire Valley users group (if you can find a contact) might shed some light on that.