1452 Liverpool - Norwich

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MCR247

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Does anyone know the cause of the severe delay that the 1452 Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich? Currently expected into Sheffield 1h16 late and has been restarted at Nottingham with another train
 
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MidnightFlyer

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I can see 'A problem currently under investigation'. The 1552 is due to run Nottingham-Norwich only.

OHLE is down at Hazel Grove I think, obviously affecting Buxton trains and those between Stockport and Sheffield.
 

dk1

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Over 90hrs of delay where caused to the TOCs that pass over Ely North Jnc last week with almost daily TCFs caused by hot weather & IBJs & then the washout Grantham-Nottingham. I think EMT split the service constantly to maintain a good service NW of Nottingham. This was not well recieved with passengers & goes to show how appreciated the Liverpool-Norwich service is as a direct route linking many major conurbations.
 

CC 72100

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Does anyone know the cause of the severe delay that the 1452 Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich? Currently expected into Sheffield 1h16 late and has been restarted at Nottingham with another train

When such 'resarts' take place, does this mean that passengers transfer trains as in this case? I've always been curious about this, as sometimes it appears that a train gets restarted but that there's been no real change? Why do TOCs 'restart?' trains?

Just curious. :D
 

calc7

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When such 'resarts' take place, does this mean that passengers transfer trains as in this case? I've always been curious about this, as sometimes it appears that a train gets restarted but that there's been no real change? Why do TOCs 'restart?' trains?

Just curious. :D

If the previous train is so late that it has no chance of making up time, the TOC may choose to "restart" the train further down the line so that the rest of the journey is on time - this particularly makes sense at major boarding stations like Nottingham. This will be done by a spare unit.

In other instances, a "set swap" may happen - passengers swap between a Down train and an Up train. Sometimes it's due to fuel issues (to allow a train to go back to a refuelling point) or mechanical or operational reasons meaning a particular set is more suited to that diagram (compare HST vs 222 on the MML or HST vs 91 on the ECML).
 

dk1

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When such 'resarts' take place, does this mean that passengers transfer trains as in this case? I've always been curious about this, as sometimes it appears that a train gets restarted but that there's been no real change? Why do TOCs 'restart?' trains?

Just curious. :D

If say the 10.57 Norwich-Liverpool (dur Nottingham 13.45)is running 45 late at Peterborough then a 'fresh' unit will start the train at Nottingham at the correct time of 13.45. The 10.57 will then terminate Nottingham at 14.30 & passengers will de-train & wait for the next service.

This causes much anger with passengers but if you explain the reasons to them most understand. This allows the service to operate on time for the greater number of passengers & saves the risk of crews missing a pnb which will then mean possibly terminating short at Warrington Central.

The same thing happens on the Eastern stretch to save terminating Ely & upsetting all those from Nottingham/Peterbough having to wait & cram into the next EMT service or the Greater Anglia from Cambridge.

Hope ive made sense. Basically it is operationaly convenient.
 

CC 72100

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If the previous train is so late that it has no chance of making up time, the TOC may choose to "restart" the train further down the line so that the rest of the journey is on time - this particularly makes sense at major boarding stations like Nottingham. This will be done by a spare unit.

In other instances, a "set swap" may happen - passengers swap between a Down train and an Up train. Sometimes it's due to fuel issues (to allow a train to go back to a refuelling point) or mechanical or operational reasons meaning a particular set is more suited to that diagram (compare HST vs 222 on the MML or HST vs 91 on the ECML).

Cheers for that. I've been on one in the second case - the London Pad to Penzance HST was involved in a level crossing barrier strike at (Stoke Canon I believe) and so 'became' the Penzance - Pad service from Exeter, whilst the original Penzance - Pad was sent back to Penzance. We left Exeter about 30/35 down, after they made sure that the (now at the rear) damaged power car was fine to carry on.

And cheers dk1 for your explanation too :)
 

John55

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When such 'resarts' take place, does this mean that passengers transfer trains as in this case? I've always been curious about this, as sometimes it appears that a train gets restarted but that there's been no real change? Why do TOCs 'restart?' trains?

Just curious. :D

In this case the train which restarts from Nottingham takes up the path of the cancelled train so that the passengers east of Nottingham have a service. The passengers on the train running very late will either stay on thier existing train and take up the path of a later train or be transferred to another train at Nottingham. If the train is more than an hour late it may be the following train on the same service is right behind.

This is quite common on this route as crews and trains seemed to be based at Nottingham so there is often staff and rolling stock available.
 

dk1

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The signaller also has to differentiate between the two now divided trains. This is usually done by changing the headcode from 1L40 to 1Z40 for the special re-started train. 1L40 will then terminate short & be removed.
 

aformeruser

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The 1552 is due to run Nottingham-Norwich only.

The 09:57 Norwich-Liverpool was terminated short due to a train fault, so there was no unit at Lime Street to work the 15:52 Liverpool-Norwich. Possibly as the 09:57 is booked for 2 x 158s throughout the good 158 took the failed 158 back to Nottingham passenger-less and then the good 158 ran the Nottingham-Norwich leg as normal.

is down at Hazel Grove I think, obviously affecting Buxton trains and those between Stockport and Sheffield.

Replacement buses running Hazel Grove-Stockport until further notice according to NRE. The irony of an electric problem when there's next-to-none electric trains using that section of wiring.
 
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Starmill

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I can see 'A problem currently under investigation'. The 1552 is due to run Nottingham-Norwich only.

OHLE is down at Hazel Grove I think, obviously affecting Buxton trains and those between Stockport and Sheffield.

The 1937 departure Manchester Picadilly towards Nottingham seemingly had Stockport cut at the last minute. I also noticed that the 1922 Manchester Pic - Hazel Grove - apart from NOT being operated by a 323 (is this still supposed to be the case? Or was that Fridays only or something random...) - was advertised as calling at "Hazel Grove only"... a very odd sight. I imagine this 156 was symptomatic of the alternative route... has the overhead problem blocked the line entirely?
 

aformeruser

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The 1937 departure Manchester Picadilly towards Nottingham seemingly had Stockport cut at the last minute. I also noticed that the 1922 Manchester Pic - Hazel Grove - apart from NOT being operated by a 323 (is this still supposed to be the case? Or was that Fridays only or something random...) - was advertised as calling at "Hazel Grove only"... a very odd sight. I imagine this 156 was symptomatic of the alternative route... has the overhead problem blocked the line entirely?

In the December 08 timetable there was a class 156 working an afternoon Buxton-Hazel Grove service. Everyone was thrown off the 156 at Hazel Grove on to the Hazel Grove-Preston a few minutes later (operated by a class 180.) The 156 off the Buxton-Hazel Grove somehow then approached platform 2 at Stockport from the north to run a Stockport-Chester service without first going northbound through Stockport and reversing. I imagine they used the same route to get to Hazel Grove avoiding the problem area.
 

eastdyke

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As a result of the line closure to rectify the OHLE issues, the last EMT service into Norwich tonight (public timetabled to arrive 23.18) seems to have been started from Sheffield.

Over the last few weeks there have been rather a lot of services towards Norwich terminated short at Ely to maintain timetable on the return journey, not just for the incidents described by 'dk1'.

The services are generally 2 x 2 cars north west of Nottingham, almost invariably 2 car Nottingham - Norwich so I guess that the extra unit at Nottingham can be used to create flexibility (crew availability permitting).

I guess that some of the times this happens there will only be a single 2 car unit for the service north-west of Nottingham?
 
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aformeruser

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I guess that some of the times this happens there will only be a single 2 car unit for the service north-west of Nottingham?

According to the EMT timetable, which indicates booked 4 car workings, only slightly more than half of the services west of Nottingham are booked as 4 car. Saturday sees considerably less booked 4 car workings but I imagine that's because of more variable loads between weeks e.g. one Saturday Norwich play Man United, another Saturday it's a FA cup between Sheffield United and Liverpool.
 

eastdyke

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According to the EMT timetable, which indicates booked 4 car workings, only slightly more than half of the services west of Nottingham are booked as 4 car. Saturday sees considerably less booked 4 car workings but I imagine that's because of more variable loads between weeks e.g. one Saturday Norwich play Man United, another Saturday it's a FA cup between Sheffield United and Liverpool.

Sorry did not check timetable, just going on my experience of travelling on the service.

This has generally seen the service mega busy Manchester - Sheffield and then pretty busy PBO - Norwich. I have never travelled on or seen a 4 car service on the Nottingham- Norwich section.

The fact remains however that the flexibilty for units allocated to the service is pretty much all at Nottingham.
 

D1009

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Also, EMT has hired 158799 to FGW to strengthen services to Weymouth for the Olympics, has this affected unit provision on the Norwich route ?
 

MCR247

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I wouldnt say exclusively the Norwich route, and 799 is on hire to SWT
 

MCR247

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It is still in the hands of SWT. It is at Salisbury. What SWT decide to do with it is down to them. So it works the duty of SWTs 158 that is hired to FGW everyday. Also, FGW gaining a 158 from SWT has been happening for ages so its nothing to do with the olympics.

So for the record:
EMT: -1 158
FGW: +/- 0 158
SWT: +1 158
 

D1009

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It is still in the hands of SWT. It is at Salisbury. What SWT decide to do with it is down to them. So it works the duty of SWTs 158 that is hired to FGW everyday. Also, FGW gaining a 158 from SWT has been happening for ages so its nothing to do with the olympics.

So for the record:
EMT: -1 158
FGW: +/- 0 158
SWT: +1 158

With respect I believe it is to do with the olympics, though I didn't pick up on this initially. What happened was that SWT needed additional diesel power to enhance the service between Bournemouth and Weymouth during the olympics, so they hired 158799 fom EMT to work on their FGW diagram, so their own set could be used between Bournemouth and Weymouth.
 

MCR247

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Yeah I agree with that. But that isn't what you said.

EMT has hired 158799 to FGW to strengthen services to Weymouth for the Olympics

You said FGW are gaining a 158 for the olympics!
 

IanD

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Does anyone know the cause of the severe delay that the 1452 Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich? Currently expected into Sheffield 1h16 late and has been restarted at Nottingham with another train

I was travelling the other way from Sheffield to Piccadilly and we were diverted away from Stockport because a fallen tree was blocking the line, presumably damaging some cables.
 

156441

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A tree fell through the wires, set on fire and then all promptly fell on the lines.

Northern did a MAN - SPT shuttle service with bustitutuon between Stockport and Hazel Grove. Buxton services and TPE's Cleethorpes services started/terminated at Hazel Grove.
EMT diverted via Romily/New mills.

In the early stages of the disruption Northern ran a service Piccadilly - Chinley (Reverse) - Hazel Grove, Primarily to get the pax of the cancelled tea time Chinley service home but second as a positioning move to get a 156 on the right side of the disruption to work a Buxton service.

Hope that clarifies..
 

Arriva158

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Yeah I agree with that. But that isn't what you said.
You said FGW are gaining a 158 for the olympics!

SWT have taken the 158 to help increase capacity of the home fleet on the Weymouth area due to the olympics, they can't increase the use of 444's due to electric power restraints so are sending 159's down, so the normal 158 is most likely heading to Waterloo more now in place of a 159, meaning another is required for the FGW hire-in of which 158799 will work, it will start/finish at Salisbury everyday but most likely stick to that diagram
 

dk1

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This has generally seen the service mega busy Manchester - Sheffield and then pretty busy PBO - Norwich. I have never travelled on or seen a 4 car service on the Nottingham- Norwich section.

The 05.50 (SuX) Norwich to Liverpool is a 4-car throughout as is 10.47 (SuO) Norwich-Liverpool & 13.52 (SuO)Liverpool-Norwich.
 
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