1963 Southampton to Wembley

[randyrippley]

this is the approach road next to platform 1 - you can see it gives access to the undercroft - the way in

this was the cab road exit to the front approach road - the way out across the concourse

 

[30907]

Just to clarify that the exit in randyrippley's second photo is into the Approach/Cab Road shown in the older plan, which then slopes down to the level of York Road; it doesn't go direct into Waterloo Road.
Access to the Incline was from the entrance off Westminster Bridge Road.
The green-shaded plan also shows the two dock sidings between 11 and 12.
Incidentally, I remember being taken by cab to Waterloo in the mid 60s and we were dropped at the front of the station not in the Cab Road - I think by then, and certainly when I worked there in the late 70s, that was normally only used by mail and newspaper vans.
And of course vehicles transferring bullion, which is where we started.

 

[Union St]

Yep, that's it - just found it myself - Cab Rd. Here it is inside, opposite 11 & 12. Thank you so much.

 

[Union St]

So, Cab Rd is UNDER the approach rd? The Approach road would have been used for pedestrians, and the newspapers and mail, etc. would have entered from Cab Rd underneath. Am I visualizing this right?

 

[Cowley]

"Nine Elms" is of course near the new American Embassy in London , such has the area changed.

Basically , the Post Office had access to all passenger trains through the UK for the carriage of mail bags , but there were special mail trains which were solely for their use and often conveyed special sorting vehicles. Parcels trains conveyed general (what you would call "express packages ?) , but might also have carried overspill mail loads. There were often huge quantities of mailbags carried , especially at high season times.

I commend to you a recent book by Graham Satchwell - a very senior retired British Transport Police Officer , who started as a constable within Southampton Docks - "Great Train Robbery Confidential" - ISBN 978 07509 9232 9 - published 2019 - who describes in some detail the port handling arrangements for bullion , - see especially Chapter 16 where options for robbing bullion were explored , and discounted for a raid on a postal /mail train. (£9.99 off Amazon or preferably another bookseller) - he has another book on his career , which goes into some detail on Soton Docks - "An Inspector Recalls - memoirs of a railway detective" - 2016 - ISBN 978 0 7509 6640 5

Excellent material , and superb underpinning knowledge. Do read them. (if you can)

@Union St - I keep meaning to link this thread which I think you’ll find useful. Give it a skim read when you get a chance. It’s one that Graham Satchwell (who Chief Planner mentioned in the above post) had running recently.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/untold-truths-great-train-robbery.177143/

 

[Union St]

I won't skim it, I'll read it! In fact I just ordered one of his books. Might take 3 or 4 weeks from the UK. I do a lot of reading, so happy for the info, Cowley.

 

[Cowley]

I won't skim it, I'll read it! In fact I just ordered one of his books. Might take 3 or 4 weeks from the UK. I do a lot of reading, so happy for the info, Cowley.

This has reminded me that I haven’t bought it yet either.
Just done it now though.

 

[randyrippley]

So, Cab Rd is UNDER the approach rd? The Approach road would have been used for pedestrians, and the newspapers and mail, etc. would have entered from Cab Rd underneath. Am I visualizing this right?

I'm trying to do this from memory, if anyone knows better please correct me.
Looking at the map again it looks like trucks could gain access to the undercroft either from the west side via a tunnel from Westminster Bridge Rd, or via the approach road on the south side of the station. Looks like there was also an exit from the undercroft to whats marked as "Cab Road" to the southeast. At that point the approach/cab roads are below platform level, must have risen to concourse level to the other "cab road" which gave platform level access via the barriered arch in the last photo. At the arch "cab road" and the "approach road" to the northeast meet, then run downhill (one way) to York rd.
So your gold laden truck would have driven east off platform 11/12, across the concourse via the internal "cab road", through the arch in the office building, turned left (north) onto the one way "approach road" downhill to the junction with York Rd

 

[WesternLancer]

I won't skim it, I'll read it! In fact I just ordered one of his books. Might take 3 or 4 weeks from the UK. I do a lot of reading, so happy for the info, Cowley.

Impressed with the attention to detail you are seeking here Union St, nicely done. In the fullness of time, when all written and hopefully published, it would be good if you returned with a link to the finished work.

 

[Union St]

Thank you again, Randy. It is awkward to understand and, of course, the brilliant maps we have now are not applicable for 1960. Google Earth helps, but 1960ish seems to be one of the sparer periods of British map-making, sadly. Lancer, I don't know how much of this I will use, but it seems natural to me that I should be able to describe the route of the JM truck out of Waterloo. What I found with my first book was that I wrote so much and then the content editor just trashed so much of it. Apparently, people cannot read long books anymore . I also must add that my research would have had to have been much deeper if the caper revolved around the trains, but in fact the trains are a red herring (or, McGuffin) in this case. I've devised the "perfect crime", but without using trains. As for the book, it's at least a year away, I'm guessing. As usual, thank you so much for your kind interest in the subject.

 

[Ian Smeeton]

For maps of Waterloo, and, indeed, the full route to Wembley, there is the National Library of Scotland Site here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313333

This should take you to a map of Waterloo itself (1915, though, so a bit early, but there are others of different scales & dates)

Good luck with the research & writing.

Ian

 

[30907]

For maps of Waterloo, and, indeed, the full route to Wembley, there is the National Library of Scotland Site here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313333

This should take you to a map of Waterloo itself (1915, though, so a bit early, but there are others of different scales & dates)

Good luck with the research & writing.

Ian

The 50s one-inch maps on the NLS site would give a sufficient idea of the road layout in pre motorway days; as compared with today, far fewer one way streets and not much in the way of over/underpasses - and no Westway!

 

[Union St]

Ian & 309, thank you. Yes, I did know about the Scottish maps - excellent site!

 

[Clarence Yard]

If I was planning a road move in 1963, I would be trying to get a journey that avoided the Harrow Road, because it is too built up with too many roads off, for security reasons. I would be heading for Western Avenue and then at Hanger lane taking a right and then quite quickly coming off and going past what is now called Wembley Stadium station and immediately turning right.

In those days the A40 went westwards from Marble Arch and Hanger Lane was a much simpler junction than it is now. The route from Waterloo to Marble Arch would have been fairly direct.

A point about the van. It wouldn't have been a BR one. Pallets of bullion would need a reinforced floor and possibly additional chassis cross members. Probably a company van or one hired in for the job.

 

[Union St]

Thank you, Clarence. You make a good point about the van/lorry. I'm stealing 296 what were then, and still are, "good delivery" bars. That's just over 3 tonnes. They would have been palatalized on arrival in Southampton, but I'm not sure if they would not have had to have been 'broken down' into separate bullion boxes (made of strong wood) for trucking. How would they be lifted into a van on a pallet? But either way, the van would have to have been something special. Earlier in the post we tried to find evidence of that sort of thing, but it's not easy. (OK, these are American)