2023 Israel - Hamas war

[wilbers]

Just been an Israeli spokesman on Newsnight that there were explosives kept in a courtyard at the hospital, and they were ignited by a fragment from a rocket mis-fired within Gaza.
Approximately 12 minutes in https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001rknj/newsnight-hospital-strike-blame-game

It makes sense as Jeremy Bowen had just been on questioning if a Hamas rocket would have a warhead capable of causing that much damage.

 

[Starmill]

You've raised a fair point about Israelis being radicalised by Hamas' actions in return, and there is a lot more nuance to this conflict than either side makes out. Indeed one could certainly extend blame back to the British and the UN for it's portioning of land that wasn't theirs to give away, especially when 62% of said partitioning was given to the population that was half that of the Palestinians. One could even extend the blame to the ones who exiled the Jewish people in the first place since part of Israel's claim is based on ancestral habitation. At the end of the day though, the present events are what matter, and one of the keys to ending the conflict is addressing the causes and tackling extremism at it's core to achieve peace in the region. It will be a long and difficult process, but nothing that I don't believe we cannot achieve eventually.

You could say that the as-was imperial British government tried to palm off responsibility for the very complicated consequences of their colonial power onto the nascent United Nations, who then weren't able to reach a negotiated settlement. Regardless of precisely why that was, sadly, by that time, the former colonial power had exited their interest, and has contributed very little indeed to the region ever since.

 

[brad465]

The Jordan Summit Biden was due to attend has been cancelled. The cynical view might be that whoever struck that hospital did so in the hope this summit would be canned to try and stop Biden getting anywhere towards de-escalation:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67119233

Jordan cancels summit with Biden​

Jordan's foreign minister has just said the country is pulling out of a planned summit with US President Joe Biden.
The summit was to be held in Amman and was to included Biden as well as Egyptian, Palestinian and Jordanian officials.
"There is no use in talking now about anything except stopping the war," said Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi.
Earlier today Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas also cancelled his meeting with Biden.
The US leader is currently on his way to the Middle East, where he is also expected to meet with Israeli officials.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Jordan Summit Biden was due to attend has been cancelled. The cynical view might be that whoever struck that hospital did so in the hope this summit would be canned to try and stop Biden getting anywhere towards de-escalation:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67119233

That certainly to me doesn't feel cynical.

Very difficult to know who to believe at this stage.

 

[Mogster]

That certainly to me doesn't feel cynical.

Very difficult to know who to believe at this stage.

I may be cynical but that was the first thing I thought when I heard the reports of the attack on the hospital. The same goes for the attack on the refugee convoy.

The IDF are using 100% PGMs, obviously nothing is perfect and the militants are happy to set up their rocket batteries near civilian infrastructure.

The Gaza Christian hospital is very well known in Gaza and has been operating for 100 years. It’s very hard to believe that Israel would encourage the condemnation these attacks would bring when they need support.

 

[DustyBin]

I may be cynical but that was the first thing I thought when I heard the reports of the attack on the hospital. The same goes for the attack on the refugee convoy.

The IDF are using 100% PGMs, obviously nothing is perfect and the militants are happy to set up their rocket batteries near civilian infrastructure.

The Gaza Christian hospital is very well known in Gaza and has been operating for 100 years. It’s very hard to believe that Israel would encourage the condemnation these attacks would bring when they need support.

I'm inclined to agree.

Based on the unverified (note emphasis) reports and images I've seen, it looks likely that this was a rocket fired from within Gaza that landed in the Hospital car park, causing a relatively small explosion and a fire that subsequently spread. Whether it was a deliberate attack or the result of a malfunction I really wouldn't like to say; there's an obvious motive for the former but we simply don't know.

 

[baza585]

I'm inclined to agree.

Based on the unverified (note emphasis) reports and images I've seen, it looks likely that this was a rocket fired from within Gaza that landed in the Hospital car park, causing a relatively small explosion and a fire that subsequently spread. Whether it was a deliberate attack or the result of a malfunction I really wouldn't like to say; there's an obvious motive for the former but we simply don't know.

It is looking increasingly likely that this explanation is correct. Quite what was present in the car park to cause such a devastating explosion is yet to emerge. Very sad that yet further lives have been lost.

The Israeli response to the Hamas atrocity of 7th October (and there is no other word to describe it) was totally predictable and must surely have been foreseen by Hamas. What was therefore the point of Hamas's incursion into Israel? It was hardly likely to improve the lot of the population of the Gaza strip.

I am no supporter of Netanyahu, but Hamas's paymasters in Tehran have a lot to answer for, in my opinion. They are the only party benefitting; certainly the innocent civilians on both sides of the Israel/Gaza border are not.

 

[DerekC]

The Israeli response to the Hamas atrocity of 7th October (and there is no other word to describe it) was totally predictable and must surely have been foreseen by Hamas. What was therefore the point of Hamas's incursion into Israel? It was hardly likely to improve the lot of the population of the Gaza strip.
.

To spark off a full scale war between the West and the Islamic nations. And they may yet succeed.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

To spark off a full scale war between the West and the Islamic nations. And they may yet succeed.

Please no. That is too awful a prospect to even think about. There has been too much bloodshed already.

 

[GS250]

Biden

Please no. That is too awful a prospect to even think about. There has been too much bloodshed already.

Agree with your sentiments, not what we need right now. Especially if this was to spill over into Western Countries. However, I'm not sure the alleged hard line Islamist 'master plan' is going to be unleashed just yet. Surely they would wait another 30-40 years at least and the establishment of a huge power base in Europe and the USA before the battle cry is given.

However...some kind of escalation contained in the middle east is a distinct possibility. Again, not what the World needs right now but reasonably likely.

 

[dangie]

From the BBC:
The US president landed in Tel Aviv on Wednesday where he was greeted warmly by Mr Netanyahu…

"I was deeply saddened and outraged by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday," Mr Biden said.
"Based on what I've seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you,"

Not a very good choice of words, makes it sound like a game of baseball…..

 

[GRALISTAIR]

From the BBC:
The US president landed in Tel Aviv on Wednesday where he was greeted warmly by Mr Netanyahu…

"I was deeply saddened and outraged by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday," Mr Biden said.
"Based on what I've seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you,"

Not a very good choice of words, makes it sound like a game of baseball…..

Biden is known for inappropriate words. A lot of deaths and he makes it sound like a game.

 

[nlogax]

Please no. That is too awful a prospect to even think about. There has been too much bloodshed already.

Unfortunately I fear many of the nations in the region have been spoiling for a fight for years and see this as the opportunity to make it happen. Some epic diplomacy is required here to navigate what is an extremely volatile situation.

 

[GS250]

Biden is known for inappropriate words. A lot of deaths and he makes it sound like a game.

The guy is an absolute robot. But I guess the thinking is that he's not Donald Trump at least. Then again, we'll never know whether Ukraine or Israel would have kicked off with Trump at the helm.

 

[jon0844]

Trump would have likely handed Ukraine to Russia because they wouldn't help him re Hunter Biden.

 

[Bantamzen]

It is looking increasingly likely that this explanation is correct. Quite what was present in the car park to cause such a devastating explosion is yet to emerge. Very sad that yet further lives have been lost.

The Israeli response to the Hamas atrocity of 7th October (and there is no other word to describe it) was totally predictable and must surely have been foreseen by Hamas. What was therefore the point of Hamas's incursion into Israel? It was hardly likely to improve the lot of the population of the Gaza strip.

I am no supporter of Netanyahu, but Hamas's paymasters in Tehran have a lot to answer for, in my opinion. They are the only party benefitting; certainly the innocent civilians on both sides of the Israel/Gaza border are not.

If, as it seems is possible, Tehran paid / goaded Hamas into those attacks, its quite clear it was for Iran's benefit and nobody else's. They would in these circumstances been flexing their political muscles in the region, especially in light of the talks between Israel & Saudi Arabia. Sadly I suspect this is the real motivation for these latest attacks.

 

[brad465]

Sunak has said "we want you to win" to Netanyahu on his visit. The problem here I think it's not black and white who is in the right here, as both sides have serious issues with their regimes and associated behaviour. Sunak is definitely not speaking for the whole population with those remarks though.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If, as it seems is possible, Tehran paid / goaded Hamas into those attacks, its quite clear it was for Iran's benefit and nobody else's. They would in these circumstances been flexing their political muscles in the region, especially in light of the talks between Israel & Saudi Arabia. Sadly I suspect this is the real motivation for these latest attacks.

I fear that you are correct. Scary. Last thing we need is yet another middle East war.

 

[8A Rail]

Sunak has said "we want you to win" to Netanyahu on his visit. The problem here I think it's not black and white who is in the right here, as both sides have serious issues with their regimes and associated behaviour. Sunak is definitely not speaking for the whole population with those remarks though.

He certainly does not speak for me for sure and I for one needs the Government to keep out of what happens in the middle east, especially Israel / Gaza / Hamas as we have enough problems in this country without adding more. There is no doubt Hamas are being egged on by outside influences and yes I would agree they are 'terrorists' for sure but I don't think Israel are innocent either, far from it and I would not trust Netanyahu either, he does not care about the civilians in Gaza. I just think given a chance, he would swipe out the whole area!

There is only one way this is going to get solved and that is talk, talk, talk until it can be resolved as best as there can be but got to be lots of compromises on both sides - there lies the issue but at least the lost of innocent people will be minimised.

 

[SynthD]

If, as it seems is possible, Tehran paid / goaded Hamas into those attacks, its quite clear it was for Iran's benefit and nobody else's.

Israel has been planning to replace the Al-Asqa (also known as Dome on the Rock) with the Third Temple, replace a major Muslim landmark with a major Jewish landmark. Some of those who wish to advance this have repeatedly forced their way in to protest and pray, despite it being managed by Muslims who don't want Jewish prayers there. Earlier this month a 1000-strong group, the largest yet, rushed in. This, and other relevant news I could share, is only covered in regional news.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-jerusalem-far-right-dismantling-dome-rock 2022
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-perform-jewish-prayers 3rd Oct 2023

 

[nw1]

Sunak has said "we want you to win" to Netanyahu on his visit. The problem here I think it's not black and white who is in the right here, as both sides have serious issues with their regimes and associated behaviour. Sunak is definitely not speaking for the whole population with those remarks though.

What does "we want you to win" mean?

Is it a tacit acceptance that bombing Gaza is an acceptable way to attempt (unsuccessfully, I'm sure) to remove Hamas?

 

[Bluejays]

Israel has been planning to replace the Al-Asqa (also known as Dome on the Rock) with the Third Temple, replace a major Muslim landmark with a major Jewish landmark. Some of those who wish to advance this have repeatedly forced their way in to protest and pray, despite it being managed by Muslims who don't want Jewish prayers there. Earlier this month a 1000-strong group, the largest yet, rushed in. This, and other relevant news I could share, is only covered in regional news.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-jerusalem-far-right-dismantling-dome-rock 2022
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-perform-jewish-prayers 3rd Oct 2023

If Israel planned to replace it with a third temple they'd have done it. They gave guardianship of the site to the waqf to look after. It could of course be argued that the decision of the authorities in charge to ban Jewish worship is extreme in itself, but we won't go there. Are there a very small amount of people in Israel who'd like to build a 3rd temple? Yes. Have there been any attempts by the state to do so? No.

Spreading of this utter nonsense has caused the Arab street to rise up on numerous occasions. But nonsense is exactly what it is!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Israel has been planning to replace the Al-Asqa (also known as Dome on the Rock) with the Third Temple, replace a major Muslim landmark with a major Jewish landmark. Some of those who wish to advance this have repeatedly forced their way in to protest and pray, despite it being managed by Muslims who don't want Jewish prayers there. Earlier this month a 1000-strong group, the largest yet, rushed in. This, and other relevant news I could share, is only covered in regional news.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-jerusalem-far-right-dismantling-dome-rock 2022
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-perform-jewish-prayers 3rd Oct 2023

Al-Aqsa is the 3rd most holy place in Islam after Mecca and Medina. Doing that would really and totally unite the whole Muslim world against Israel. It would be a totally stupid move by Israel.

 

[Bluejays]

Al-Aqsa is the 3rd most holy place in Islam after Mecca and Medina. Doing that would really and totally unite the whole Muslim world against Israel. It would be a totally stupid move by Israel.

For a reason I can't really understand, the op appears to be presenting the aims of a very small bunch of extreme far right loons as if they were the official aims of the state of Israel.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what Hamas tend to do.

 

[SynthD]

https://www.jewishvoice.org/read/article/update-building-third-temple American

Netanyahu to UN: Construction of Third Temple Will not be an Obstacle to Peace with Palestinians - The Mideast Beast

“The fact is,” the Israeli PM told world leaders at the United Nations, “a Jewish Temple used to stand right where the Al Aqsa mosque plaza now sits. Even

www.themideastbeast.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...access-in-deal-with-ultra-conservative-rabbi/ Israeli source talking about the recent change in access demands

One delay is that they can't agree on what a cubit is, and think that only the return of someone who can tell them what it is will permit them to build it. But they bought the cows.

 

[wilbers]

MSN

A U.S. Navy warship on Thursday took out three missiles and several drones that had been fired from Yemen and were heading north, the Pentagon said.

Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder, Pentagon press secretary, told reporters Thursday that the USS Carney, a Navy destroyer in the northern Red Sea, intercepted three land attack cruise missiles and several drones that were launched by Houthi forces in Yemen. He said they were shot down over the water.

“We cannot say for certain what these missiles and drones were targeting, but they were launched from Yemen heading north along the Red Sea, potentially towards targets in Israel,” Ryder said in a Pentagon briefing. A U.S. official said they do not believe the missiles were aimed at the ship. That official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss military operations that had not yet been announced.

Ryder said the missiles were shot down because they “posed a potential threat” based on their flight profile, adding that the U.S. is prepared to do whatever is needed “to protect our partners and our interests in this important region.” He said the U.S. is still assessing what the target was.

Appears Houthi forces in Yemen were trying to target something in Israel.

 

[Bluejays]

MSN

Appears Houthi forces in Yemen were trying to target something in Israel.

I get the feeling Iran may be biting off more than they chew here. I get the feeling their houthi affiliate won't have much lifespan left. If the Israelis or yanks soften the houthis up a bit, I'm sure the Saudis will happily roll in and finish that particular job off.

 

[brad465]

Biden is about to give a national address outlining a request for aid for Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan and the southern US Border, and try and explain why he sees this as necessary. The trouble he has of course is not only trying to convince Congress and the population of their need, but there is currently no Speaker of the House of Representatives after McCarthy was ousted and Republicans still cannot find a replacement.

 

[Mogster]

I get the feeling Iran may be biting off more than they chew here. I get the feeling their houthi affiliate won't have much lifespan left. If the Israelis or yanks soften the houthis up a bit, I'm sure the Saudis will happily roll in and finish that particular job off.

Yes, the Yemen involvement is a bit surprising.

it seems the problem for Iran is that they need Hamas and Hezbollah in place as they are, whipping up western left wing support, whipping up support in the Arab world, disrupting Israeli life and politics, causing division, causing massive Israeli defence spending. The status quo seemed to be slowly damaging Israel in a gradual but serious way, with little cost to Iran.

However militants are unpredictable and hard to control. Hamas have created this “spectacular” and while some in Iran may be happy I suspect most are concerned. The Israelis now have a mandate to cause serious damage to Hamas, and then when Hamas are degraded the IDF will most likely pivot to Hezbollah. The only way Iran can stop this is with direct action but I can’t see they want an expensive destructive war with the West which is only going to be bad for Iran. What will they do?

 

[MasterSpenny]

Israeli tank hits Eyptian position on accident. This also resulted in some injuries

Middle East latest: Hamas releases hostage video; Hezbollah dismisses 'worthless' Israeli claims on commanders killed

Joe Biden has signed a $95bn security package after months of delays - including around $26bn for Israel. A US envoy has said Israel must do everything possible to avoid famine in Gaza. Listen to a Daily podcast on how the conflict is worsening Yemen's humanitarian crisis as you scroll.

news.sky.com

Israel-Gaza latest: Second convoy of aid trucks enter Gaza; IDF soldier killed in raid; Israeli tank accidentally hits 'Egyptian position​

An IDF soldier was killed and others wounded during a localised raid into Gaza. Egyptian border guards were injured when an Israeli tank accidentally fired at their position. Israeli strikes targeted a mosque in the West Bank, two airports in Syria, and killed journalist Roshdi Sarraj.

Key points​

• Egyptian border guards injured by 'accidental' fire from Israeli tank View post
• Israeli soldier killed during raid into Gaza View post
• Prominent journalist killed in Gaza View post
• Second convoy of aid trucks heading to Gaza View post
• Deborah Haynes: Growing risk of whole region being plunged into conflict View post
• Alex Rossi: Very dangerous moment on the Lebanese border View post
• The war explained: What is two-state solution? View post| What was ordinary life like for people in Gaza before the war? View post
• Updates from Alistair Bunkall in Jerusalem, Stuart Ramsay in Israel, Deborah Haynes in southern Israel and Alex Rossi in Beirut. Live reporting by Brad Young and (earlier) Niamh Lynch