3 carriages between Salisbury and Exeter !

[yorksrob]

It's not for convienience that they use 158s, they'd love to use 450s but there just isn't enough spare units, every day there's multiple diagrams that are short formed due to lack of stock, and you can't even say it's due to poor maintenance on SWTs part as the stock and their fleet team constantly win awards and their units too fleet reliability tables.

I do think the argument of Stock knowledge for crew is now a non stater as there's only 1 unit in the depot, it doesn't matter if it's a 158 or 455.

Perhaps for the Lymington branch they could hire in a 74 and carriages

 

[A Challenge]

That's a limitation of the CIS system, it can't handle dividing twice where one is terminating at that location, so the set to terminate at Salisbury is advertised as coming off at Andover, with the Bristol portion dividing at Salisbury.

But it said the back three were terminating in Andover, not continuing into Salisbury separately? So surely this will cause the same error!

 

[JohnR]

That's a limitation of the CIS system, it can't handle dividing twice where one is terminating at that location, so the set to terminate at Salisbury is advertised as coming off at Andover, with the Bristol portion dividing at Salisbury.

How would that have handled the ACE?

 

[A0]

Ah. Unlucky for those at Kettering and Wellingborough etc..

As a reasonably regular user, I don't agree.

The Meridians ride much better than the HSTs, are more comfortable, have much better dwell times and are far better at keeping to time.

The HSTs have uncomfortable 'low backed' seats when compared to the Meridians - which I at 6'1" find quite unpleasant. I usually try to avoid the HST services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps for the Lymington branch they could hire in a 74 and carriages

Surely one of the 442s which is heading to storage would be a better solution?!

 

[yorksrob]

As a reasonably regular user, I don't agree.

The Meridians ride much better than the HSTs, are more comfortable, have much better dwell times and are far better at keeping to time.

The HSTs have uncomfortable 'low backed' seats when compared to the Meridians - which I at 6'1" find quite unpleasant. I usually try to avoid the HST services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Surely one of the 442s which is heading to storage would be a better solution?!

We shall have to disagree about the HST's (I like to get them all the way to Wakefield !).

Actually, shortened 442's sounds like not a bad idea - the routes have third rail, there's probably some residual knowledge at Bournemouth depot, they could even buy one to cannibalise for spares.

You know it makes sense !

 

[swt_passenger]

I'll believe that when it actually happens. Who knows what the next franchise holder will decide to do

If it doesn't happen, the 5/10 car service to Reading which has had platform extensions and power supply strengthening will all have looked a bit stupid. The 707s aren't a massive fleet replacement that puts all the ducks in a row for TfL anyway, there are still 91 x 455s, and 24 x 456s running on what someone recently called 'red routes'. I would say that there's an extremely high probability that the existing internal cascade plans will carry forward as planned. There isn't really an alternative way of using the stock.

 

[louis97]

But it said the back three were terminating in Andover, not continuing into Salisbury separately?

Yes, that's how it is setup. As far as the CIS is aware the rear 3 detach and terminate at Andover and the remaining 6 divide at Salisbury - front 3 Exeter and what were the Middle 3 Bristol. What is advertised however does make it look like the divide is just setup for Andover.

 

[swt_passenger]

...or free up diesel stock which play 3rd rail, like I say though I can't imagine there will be much to be gained as only 2, possibly 3 diagrams run above the juice rail. The Lymington flyer and 1 or 2 Hampshire locals.

Had a look through the current CWN's, and can find even fewer DMU over 3rd rail services than I expected, it's come down a lot since my last attempt at a list (repeated below).

The Lymington flyer 2.158 now comes down from Salisbury ECS each morning and at end of service on the branch provides the unit that does:
2T75 0030 Eastleigh to Portsmouth Harbour 0112
...stabling at Fratton depot overnight, it then runs ECS from Fratton to Totton, doing the first anticlockwise Romsey service of the day before entering the normal 3 train pattern to/from Salisbury.

Stabling that unit in Fratton to start the early Romsey services off may continue, and it doesn't really affect the 3rd rail 'issue' - although there must come a time before long where 158 driver knowledge at Fratton becomes a factor surely?

The other 3.159 covered services that I could find may be able to use a single unit.
2B91 1638 Winchester to Totton 1711
the above oddball service, previously mentioned in this thread, could presumably form 2T69 after running ECS back to Barton Mill from Totton:
2T69 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth Harbour 2340
This stables at Fratton and logically provides stock for the next day's:
2T14 0500 Portsmouth Harbour to Basingstoke 0620
(AFAICS it now goes off to Gillingham, it used to be a 6.159 and go onward to Waterloo at 0642).

Have I missed anything else? 'Corrections welcome' as they say...


I've dug out the early 2015 situation and copied it below for reference:

SWT DMU passenger workings over third rail - Dec 14 timetable

(Lymington Branch not included to save repetition, and I've grouped them by origin station.)

2L88 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo 6.159 now 8.450
2B89 0655 Basingstoke to Southampton Ctrl 3.159 now 5.444
2B93 1724 Basingstoke to Southampton Ctrl 3.159 now 4.450
2T69 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth Hbr 3.159
2T75 0030 Eastleigh to Portsmouth Hbr 2.158
2T14 0500 Portsmouth Hbr to Basingstoke 6.159
2E24 0933 Portsmouth Hbr to Southampton Ctrl 3.159 now 4.450
2T92 1649 Portsmouth Hbr to Eastleigh 2.158 now 4.450 runs as 2T94
2B98 0542 Southampton Ctrl to Eastleigh 6.159 now 5.444
2E13 0751 Southampton Ctrl to Portsmouth Hbr 3.159 now 5.444
2B94 1817 Southampton Ctrl to Winchester 3.159 now 4.450
2B91 1638 Winchester to Totton 3.159
2B95 1905 Winchester to Southampton Ctrl 3.159 now 4.450

 

[pompeyfan]

Looks correct to me, didn't realise the Lymington came down ECS from Salisbury and formed the 0030 each day.

Fratton crew work a lot of the Southampton - Romsey via Eastleigh, they also do a couple of other bits and pieces on diesel too.

 

[A0]

Actually, shortened 442's sounds like not a bad idea - the routes have third rail, there's probably some residual knowledge at Bournemouth depot, they could even buy one to cannibalise for spares.

You know it makes sense !

Well, it seemed a more sensible solution than the madness which was being peddled on these forums a month or so back about turning them into diesel hauled push-pull sets for use on TPE or some other such nonsense.

Presumably they could be shortened to 2 or 3 car?

There's even a precedent to using the 'last of type' on the Lymington branch - i.e. the shortened slammers which were being used until a couple of years back.

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks correct to me, didn't realise the Lymington came down ECS from Salisbury and formed the 0030 each day.

That was a fairly recent change, I think prior to December 2015 the Lymington unit was basically self contained with a change of unit only on Wed evening, stabling at Bournemouth Mon, Tue and Thu nights. At that time the ECS runs ran in multiple with other units between Salisbury and Southampton Central.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it seemed a more sensible solution than the madness which was being peddled on these forums a month or so back about turning them into diesel hauled push-pull sets for use on TPE or some other such nonsense.

Presumably they could be shortened to 2 or 3 car?

There's even a precedent to using the 'last of type' on the Lymington branch - i.e. the shortened slammers which were being used until a couple of years back.

There's quite a history on the Southern region of shortening longer distance units for slower services, thinking of the VOP's, COP's and 3CEP's.

 

[richw]

Exeter to Penzance isn't 'short distance', especially in journey time - some of those long runs are currently done by 150s... (memories last year of a Newton Abbot - Truro run in a hot, packed 150 with 3+2 seating). 158s, or even better 185s, would be a big improvement.

The 150s also do Penzance to Bristol/Cardiff. That definitely needs 158 operation!

 

[fgwrich]

Well, it seemed a more sensible solution than the madness which was being peddled on these forums a month or so back about turning them into diesel hauled push-pull sets for use on TPE or some other such nonsense.

Presumably they could be shortened to 2 or 3 car?

There's even a precedent to using the 'last of type' on the Lymington branch - i.e. the shortened slammers which were being used until a couple of years back.

No chance of going down to 2 car as the Motor Coach sits in the middle. Maybe losing 2 coaches down to 3 car could work, but why not just lose one and make it a 4 car (if It fits on the branch?).

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The 442 Idea on the Lymington branch mentioned above does sound a good idea.

I used to travel on the SWT Exeter services frequently and some trains did seem to be made up of 3 carriages when at least 6 would have been better.

I went a few times on the 0820 from Waterloo which have often been 3 as far as Salisbury, then another 3 were added at the front there, making a 6 coach train onto Exeter.

I did travel a few times on the 0920 too which was 9 carriages, three went off at Salisbury to Bristol, 6 carried on to Exeter St. Davids where 3 were taken off and the other three went onto Plymouth I think or maybe Paignton. Although that was a few years ago now. (A handy little add on, as you could do the sea wall bit at Dawlish back to Waterloo without changing trains, although it did change direction at Exeter.)

 

[Western Lord]

Ah! More new uses for 442s. How about getting Vivarail to bung some Transit engines under the floor of the trailer vehicles, thus creating a nice bi-mode unit for Waterloo-Exeter. Or how about this for a curve ball. When Reading-Basingstoke is electrified, continue the wires to Salisbury and run hourly Paddington-Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Exeter with five car class 802 bi-modes. There would still be an hourly Waterloo-Salisbury service with dual voltage EMUs.

 

[Kite159]

Ah! More new uses for 442s. How about getting Vivarail to bung some Transit engines under the floor of the trailer vehicles, thus creating a nice bi-mode unit for Waterloo-Exeter. Or how about this for a curve ball. When Reading-Basingstoke is electrified, continue the wires to Salisbury and run hourly Paddington-Reading-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Exeter with five car class 802 bi-modes. There would still be an hourly Waterloo-Salisbury service with dual voltage EMUs.

Would love to see a Transit engined 442 attempting to do a hill start at Grateley heading towards Salisbury

 

[yorksrob]

Hey, less levity thank you very much.

We've come up with a perfectly sensible use for 442's which would meet a requirement and is in keeping with Southern Region practice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hey, less levity thank you very much.

We've come up with a perfectly sensible use for 442's which would meet a requirement and is in keeping with Southern Region practice.

Except the sectional appendix shows 442s, 444s and various Mk3s are not cleared for the branch. Probably gauge clearance.

 

[yorksrob]

Except the sectional appendix shows 442s, 444s and various Mk3s are not cleared for the branch. Probably gauge clearance.

They probably just haven't got round to doing it yet. This could provide additional electric stock for more than just the Lymington branch. They could use them for coastal stoppers for example.

 

[swt_passenger]

This could provide additional electric stock for more than just the Lymington branch. They could use them for coastal stoppers for example.

I hadn't realised you were being serious. Why ever would they need to take on 442s?

They've already got 30 x 450s becoming available for internal cascade, starting in a few months time.

 

[bramling]

I hadn't realised you were being serious. Why ever would they need to take on 442s?

They've already got 30 x 450s becoming available for internal cascade, starting in a few months time.

I do wonder if, had it not been for the aforementioned cascade, the 442s might well have found there way back onto SWT, if perhaps not working their original route.

Of course, with the 450s being released by new trains SWT would be mad to take them back.

 

[yorksrob]

Got the return (13:20) Exeter - Waterloo yesterday.

Again, 3 carriages. The train was very well loaded (all seats taken from Exeter Central) but more bearable than my outward journey, there being no standees and the buffet trolley was able to ply it's trade throughout.

I was surprised to find that a total of six carriages had been added at Salisbury!

 

[TEW]

That's booked, it forms the 1720 Waterloo-Exeter St Davids, which needs to be a 9-car 159 for capacity.

 

[91103eastcoast]

That's booked, it forms the 1720 Waterloo-Exeter St Davids, which needs to be a 9-car 159 for capacity.

Is that all the way to Exeter or do some detach at Salisbury?

 

[TEW]

It's a 3-car to Exeter Monday-Thursday and a 6-car on Fridays.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Looks correct to me, didn't realise the Lymington came down ECS from Salisbury and formed the 0030 each day.

Fratton crew work a lot of the Southampton - Romsey via Eastleigh, they also do a couple of other bits and pieces on diesel too.

No we don't, we do that first 0613 from Totton plus another one at lunchtime but that's it, the only additional work is the 1030 from Basingstoke to Waterloo which is a 159. The large reduction in diesel work for Fratton crew (guards in particular) has been noted by management and will hopefully be addressed in new rosters in December or May.

The 0500 from Portsmouth, the Winchester to Totton and the 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth are expected to switch to EMU stock soon. DMU work currently accounts for around 1-2% of our work at Fratton.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 0500 from Portsmouth, the Winchester to Totton and the 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth are expected to switch to EMU stock soon. DMU work currently accounts for around 1-2% of our work at Fratton.

Do you know if the Winchester to Totton will end up extended to somewhere else (whether in service or ECS) when replaced with an EMU please Matt?

Of course I suppose another solution would be to just reverse it at Southampton Central and stick a Totton call in something else...

 

[pompeyfan]

No we don't, we do that first 0613 from Totton plus another one at lunchtime but that's it, the only additional work is the 1030 from Basingstoke to Waterloo which is a 159. The large reduction in diesel work for Fratton crew (guards in particular) has been noted by management and will hopefully be addressed in new rosters in December or May.

The 0500 from Portsmouth, the Winchester to Totton and the 2221 Basingstoke to Portsmouth are expected to switch to EMU stock soon. DMU work currently accounts for around 1-2% of our work at Fratton.

I was going by observation and what I was told, I knew of some of the diagrams, thought there was a couple more... when you say the work load was being addressed, does that mean an increase or decrease? There's a few waiting on a diesel course at Fratton and they're not sure whether to run...

 

[randyrippley]

reading this about three coaches west of Salisbury brings the current situation into clear contrast with the Warship days..........then you'd have eight or nine coaches west of Salisbury with another three (or four?) added/removed at Salisbury. OK one or two of the set would have been full brakes/parcels vans, but it still adds up to a lot more than present