319 allocation - there's 8 left over!

[pemma]

By my working out they'll be 78 units that can be put to use in Thames Valley and Northern West (that's assuming that there is no increase in frequency other than Man Vic-Lime St becoming half-hourly which wouldn't actually change the number required anyway as it's half-hourly at peak times.)

FGW use a total of 47 165s and 166s on Thameslink.

Northern could use 2 extra EMUs on the west side to start with to replace the 142s being used on services fully under OHE.

Liverpool - Wigan: 4 trains
Liverpool - Man Vic: 5 trains
Liverpool - Man Airport: 4 trains
Hazel Grove - Preston: 4 trains
Man Vic - Blackpool: 4 trains
Man Airport - Blackpool: 4 trains
Liverpool SP - Blackpool: 4 trains

That's a total of 78 trains required. There's also proposals for a fourth Liverpool-Manchester express every hour, if that goes ahead and is via Chat Moss then that'll could use some of the 8 spare 319s, although when Liverpool-Scarborough is diverted that way they'd then be surplus unless it conincides with either Victoria-Stalybridge or the CLC line being electrified.

There's also a possibility that Northern will lose some 323s to LM, so we might finish up with some of those extra 319s directly replacing 323s. However, it wouldn't be possible for all 323s to go to the West Midlands.

 

[N Levers]

FGW won't need to replace all their 165/166's as some will be required to work the deisel branches. (Basingtoke, henley, marlow, Gatwick, North Cots...)

Although replacing 2/3 cars with 4 car trains will definately improve capacity..

 

[richa2002]

Could the 'spare' 8 not just be used to lengthen busy services?

 

[pemma]

FGW won't need to replace all their 165/166's as some will be required to work the deisel branches. (Basingtoke, henley, marlow, Gatwick, North Cots...)

Approx. how many units don't need replacing then?

 

[jopsuk]

You're assuming little train lengthening or service improvements- which is frankly a flawed assumption. After all, there has long been noted a "sparks effect"- this may be most keenly felt in the NW, when 75mph pokey DMUs are replaced by relatively spacious 100mph EMUs

 

[ainsworth74]

Could the 'spare' 8 not just be used to lengthen busy services?

That depends on how many platforms in the NW or FGW areas can take 8-car units, I would gamble that it's not that many without some sort of work being done to them.

 

[Class172]

Could the Northern 319s as well as the spare ones go to LM? Then all their 323s and the 321s could go to Northern. I don't know if the logistics would work etc but it would put all the 323 fleet up north as well as getting rid of LM's 321 microfleet.

 

[pemma]

Could the Northern 319s as well as the spare ones go to LM? Then all their 323s and the 321s could go to Northern. I don't know if the logistics would work etc but it would put all the 323 fleet up north as well as getting rid of LM's 321 microfleet.

Wouldn't work. There'd be too few EMUs at Northern - Northern will need a minimum of 48 EMUs in total - plus it would be unlikely there would be enough 4 carriage ones to even run the current 4 carriage DMU diagrams, never mind introducing extra ones.

The only way it would possibly work would be if LM took over the Manchester-Stoke and Manchester-Crewe routes.

 

[Phil6219]

That depends on how many platforms in the NW or FGW areas can take 8-car units, I would gamble that it's not that many without some sort of work being done to them.

I think we are rather fortunate in the North West as a lot of our platforms are still the original length from the days of black and white. It should in theory be a simple case of removing the barrier and tidying up the disused parts of the platform (and checking that it's still safe to use).

That would depend on which way the 8 car trains would run. Important stations like Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan North Western can easily handle an 8 car (although SC hasn't seen one since before privatisation). Salford Central may, it has been rebuilt so I'm not sure on the platform length. Some other stations could handle an 8 car but it would be a bit of a squeeze so maybe they would use the longer formations on semi-fast or express services. Either way it would be a much more welcome improvement.

Phil

 

[pemma]

That depends on how many platforms in the NW or FGW areas can take 8-car units, I would gamble that it's not that many without some sort of work being done to them.

Except at the big mainline stations, in the North West most platforms are 4 car or 6 car, so unless platforms get lengthened or the 319s can be reformed to be in 3 and 6 car formation (if it's possible) I expect the only time we'll see 319s running in more than 4 car formation is for ECS workings.

 

[Class172]

Wouldn't work. There'd be too few EMUs at Northern - plus unlikely to be enough 4 carriage ones to even run the current 4 carriage DMU diagrams, never mind introducing extra ones.

The only way it would possibly work would be if LM took over the Manchester-Stoke and Manchester-Crewe routes.

But aren't they different lengths: 323 has 3 23m carriages; 319 has 4 20m carriages - they have similar capacities so would it make a difference. After all a 80m long 319 takes up more room than a 69m long 323.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Except at the big mainline stations, in the North West most platforms are 4 car or 6 car, so unless platforms get lengthened or the 319s can be reformed to be in 3 and 6 car formation (if it's possible) I expect the only time we'll see 319s running in more than 4 car formation is for ECS workings.

I think on the Chat Moss, only Wavertree would require actual platform lengthening (being a relatively new station), but the rest would need a little work to bring the full platform length into use. I am happy to be corrected though.

It would be impossible to shorten 319s to 3 car without some major work (and you'd be losing the only toilets they have), but then you'd be looking at lengthening platforms just to stop peak capacity being reduced. As a 4 car unit, most services will have similar capacity to the current peak services.

 

[pemma]

But aren't they different lengths: 323 has 3 23m carriages; 319 has 4 20m carriages - they have similar capacities so would it make a difference. After all a 80m long 319 takes up more room than a 69m long 323.

Can you give the exact numbers of seats instead of saying 'about the same.' If you don't know the exact numbers then your comment is unfounded. Some 319s have 2+2 seating and tables and others have 3+2 seating without tables, so which are you comparing with the 323 capacity (that's 3+2 and no tables)?

However, as I said your idea of LM getting the 319s and Northern getting the LM 321s and 323s is unworkable by itself. Northern would need another 15 EMUs or to transfer some of their electric routes to LM.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Can you give the exact numbers of seats instead of saying 'about the same.' If you don't know the exact numbers then your comment is unfounded. Some 319s have 2+2 seating and tables and others have 3+2 seating without tables, so which are you comparing with the 323 capacity (that's 3+2 and no tables)?....

The 319s are due to be refurb'ed anyway, so talk of seat numbers is not clear cut, however I would hedge my bets towards 3+2 seating.

 

[Batman]

By my working out they'll be 78 units that can be put to use in Thames Valley and Northern West (that's assuming that there is no increase in frequency other than Man Vic-Lime St becoming half-hourly which wouldn't actually change the number required anyway as it's half-hourly at peak times.)

FGW use a total of 47 165s and 166s on Thameslink.

Northern could use 2 extra EMUs on the west side to start with to replace the 142s being used on services fully under OHE.

Liverpool - Wigan: 4 trains
Liverpool - Man Vic: 5 trains
Liverpool - Man Airport: 4 trains
Hazel Grove - Preston: 4 trains
Man Vic - Blackpool: 4 trains
Man Airport - Blackpool: 4 trains
Liverpool SP - Blackpool: 4 trains

That's a total of 78 trains required. There's also proposals for a fourth Liverpool-Manchester express every hour, if that goes ahead and is via Chat Moss then that'll could use some of the 8 spare 319s, although when Liverpool-Scarborough is diverted that way they'd then be surplus unless it conincides with either Victoria-Stalybridge or the CLC line being electrified.

There's also a possibility that Northern will lose some 323s to LM, so we might finish up with some of those extra 319s directly replacing 323s. However, it wouldn't be possible for all 323s to go to the West Midlands.

Why is it not possible for all 323's to go to the West Midlands?

Once the Bromsgrove extension is built there will be a need for 16 units on the Cross City line, thats 32 if they are all formed of 6 cars, I'm asuming 3 will be at the depot at any one time, one for emergancy cover and 5 units for the Walsall - Wolverhampton service, with a sixth being needed when the Aldridge extension is built. There are 26 units with London Midland at the moment and 17 with Northern, so that 43 units in total. That leaves one unit left over which could be used to provide an extra morning peak service from Walsall to Birmingham. Or am I correct in thinking one Northern 323 was written off a few years ago after an incident at a level crossing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you give the exact numbers of seats instead of saying 'about the same.' If you don't know the exact numbers then your comment is unfounded. Some 319s have 2+2 seating and tables and others have 3+2 seating without tables, so which are you comparing with the 323 capacity (that's 3+2 and no tables)?

However, as I said your idea of LM getting the 319s and Northern getting the LM 321s and 323s is unworkable by itself. Northern would need another 15 EMUs or to transfer some of their electric routes to LM.

319's or any four car EMU would not be workable in the West Midlands. They'd be ok on the Walsall - Wolverhampton service and working in singles on the Cross City Line, but the could not be doubled up on the cross city because of the 6 car platform lengths. This line is already overcrowded in the peaks and platform extensions would be very difficalt at Duddeston, Aston, Four Oaks and Lichfield City.

 

[sprinterguy]

Approx. how many units don't need replacing then?

It's been estimated/calculated on this forum that there'll be a need for somewhere in the region of 12, maybe a couple more, DMUs on the unelectrified Thames Valley branches, but I don't know the services well enough myself to work it out. The Oxford electrification will easily displace the thirty six 165/1s for other work though, so presumably around 40 class 319s will be needed to operate the services.

Looks like it could possibly be a very even split of 319s between the Thames Valley and the North West. It's a terrible shame that if that is the situation that there may not be quite enough 319s moving to Northern, presumably, to displace all the 323s to LM.

 

[Big Chris]

would having a mix of 3,4 & 5 car units with a bit of reforming be worthwhile to focus capacity where it is needed. The would solve the loo problem by moving the looless car to the 5 car sets

 

[sprinterguy]

Why is it not possible for all 323's to go to the West Midlands?

If Northern got a total number of 319s closer to 50 than 40, and FGW received the remaining 319s to the tune of about 36 units, then I think it would be possible for the 323s to leave Northern. However I don't know if 36/37 trains would be sufficient to operate all of the electrified Thames Valley services.

If LM operated the entire fleet of forty three 323s (There hasn't been one written off AFAIK), it would increase the potential for the Chase line to be electrified if such a scheme was ever on the cards, as there would be a sufficient number of trains available to operate the service. More realistically I'd be keen to see more Cross City line services doubled up, although I don't think there's a need for all of them to run in six car formations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're assuming little train lengthening or service improvements- which is frankly a flawed assumption. After all, there has long been noted a "sparks effect"- this may be most keenly felt in the NW, when 75mph pokey DMUs are replaced by relatively spacious 100mph EMUs

A single 319 is pretty much equivalent to a pair of 150s anyway though, so on the majority of services that's automatically going to be a big increase in capacity with just a single, four car unit.

Admittedly it'll still be a squeeze on the busy peak time trains that are already formed of a pair of 150s or similar, but most importantly every departure on the electrified routes will be this length rather than a select number as is the case now, so that peak demand can be better spread over the services. Presumably trains on the remaining diesel routes will also be longer using units released from the electrified routes.

 

[pemma]

Why is it not possible for all 323's to go to the West Midlands?

As I've already explained in my replies to Class172 Northern will need a minimum of 48 EMUs in the North West to not use DMUs on completely electrified routes.

There is a possibly of LM taking some 323s as I've pointed out there will be some 319s not directly replacing anything. However, Northern won't get enough cascaded EMUs to replace the entire 323 fleet.

Or am I correct in thinking one Northern 323 was written off a few years ago after an incident at a level crossing?

No you're not right. There's been 2 x 323s which were out-of-service long term but they have both returned to service. One derailed near Alderley Edge on an ECS run and the other was running a Manchester-Stoke service when a Land Rover parked on a hill near Congleton rolled down the hill, on to the railway line hitting a 323 (and I think a Voyager travelling in the other direction was also involved.)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

would having a mix of 3,4 & 5 car units with a bit of reforming be worthwhile to focus capacity where it is needed. The would solve the loo problem by moving the looless car to the 5 car sets

Presuming you are refering to the 319s, the only coach they could reasonably remove from a 4-car unit is the ATS (you can't lose the PMS or either DTS), this is the toilet coach and has equipment vital to the unit onboard. I don't honestly think there is merit in changing from 4-car formations.

It's been estimated/calculated on this forum that there'll be a need for somewhere in the region of 12, maybe a couple more, DMUs on the unelectrified Thames Valley branches, but I don't know the services well enough myself to work it out. The Oxford electrification will easily displace the thirty six 165/1s for other work though, so presumably around 40 class 319s will be needed to operate the services.

Looks like it could possibly be a very even split of 319s between the Thames Valley and the North West. It's a terrible shame that if that is the situation that there may not be quite enough 319s moving to Northern, presumably, to displace all the 323s to LM.

If the GWML needs 40 units, then that is all the 319/4s, leaving Northern with 13x319/0, 7x319/2 and 26x319/3, 46 units in total. I don't think that is enough to cover the 323s.

 

[pemma]

A single 319 is pretty much equivalent to a pair of 150s anyway though, so on the majority of services that's automatically going to be a big increase in capacity with just a single, four car unit.

Admittedly it'll still be a squeeze on the busy peak time trains that are already formed of a pair of 150s or similar, but most importantly every departure on the electrified routes will be this length rather than a select number as is the case now, so that peak demand can be better spread over the services. Presumably trains on the remaining diesel routes will also be longer using units released from the electrified routes.

A 319 should be more like a 150/0 with a second centre car. A 150/0 has 239 seats due to not having a second toilet or out-of-use driving cabs taking up space.

Remember the EMU cascade was Labour's alternative to ordering 200 new diesel trains for Northern, TPE and FGW so there should be capacity gains on the busiest routes.

 

[Class172]

Can you give the exact numbers of seats instead of saying 'about the same.' If you don't know the exact numbers then your comment is unfounded. Some 319s have 2+2 seating and tables and others have 3+2 seating without tables, so which are you comparing with the 323 capacity (that's 3+2 and no tables)?

I didn't know they had different arrangements

 

[sprinterguy]

If the GWML needs 40 units, then that is all the 319/4s, leaving Northern with 13x319/0, 7x319/2 and 26x319/3, 46 units in total. I don't think that is enough to cover the 323s.

That sounds like it would be a pretty tidy way to work the 319 cascade.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't know they had different arrangements

The 319s were built in two batches; sixty all-standard class 319/0s and twenty six 319/1s which had a first class section in one of the driving vehicles. Since then, different interior refurbishments have been carried out on the trains by different operators with new sub-classes created so that I have very little clue what's what!

The proposed refurbishment prior to the units' cascade to the GWML and the North West should set the record straight and give them a standard internal arrangement, although I suspect that the specification for the Great Western units will be different to that of the Northern ones (I'd expect the GW 319s to have first class provision and maybe a lower density seating arrangement than the Northern units, but that's just speculation on my part).

 

[pemma]

I've realised I made a school boy error in the original post. Northern will need a couple of extra units to cover maintenance and failures and there isn't exactly any slack in their 323 fleet.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The 319s were built in two batches; sixty all-standard class 319/0s and twenty six 319/1s which had a first class section in one of the driving vehicles. Since then, different interior refurbishments have been carried out on the trains by different operators with new sub-classes created so that I have very little clue what's what!....

The 319/1s became 319/3 with a first class compartment in the 'A' end, one third of the coach. the 319/1s became 319/4 and lost the first Class compartment for standard class. In both cases I think four to six standard seats were added into each coach. I don't think Southern changed 319001-319013, but the other 7 319/0s became 319/2 with half a coach for First class and 2+2 seating throughout, except in the PMS where a 'lounge' area saw capacity reduced by a further 16 or so seats. I believe FCC have replaced the 'lounge' area with 2+2 seating.

 

[tbtc]

Liverpool - Man Airport: 4 trains

I thought that you said this was going to run via Warrington, so still DMU run?

Regardless, there will be plenty 319s to go round (if thats what comes to Lancashire), I'd say that the majority of 165/166s at FGW will need to be retained (due to them not electrifying the Thames Valley branches/ Redhill service etc (even that is assuming that 166s won't be needed on Worcester etc trips).

Ideally, if there are spare 319s then it'd make sense to give a few to Neville Hill to replace the 321/322s which are better suited with NXEA's big fleet of 321s).

Presumably all 323 platforms (Glossop line etc) can cope with 80m trains?

 

[pemma]

The proposed refurbishment prior to the units' cascade to the GWML and the North West should set the record straight and give them a standard internal arrangement, although I suspect that the specification for the Great Western units will be different to that of the Northern ones (I'd expect the GW 319s to have first class provision and maybe a lower density seating arrangement than the Northern units, but that's just speculation on my part).

As Northern will use them on Airport and Blackpool runs plus serving a lot of university towns (Manchester, Liverpool, Salford, Bolton and Preston) I would hope they include quite a bit of luggage space.

I personally think both areas should get 319s refurbed in the 158 style that operators including EMT have used to give a high number of seats but not so many that passengers would feel uncomfortable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I thought that you said this was going to run via Warrington, so still DMU run?....

The current Manchester Airport-Liverpool Lime Street runs via the Chat Moss.

 

[pemma]

I thought that you said this was going to run via Warrington, so still DMU run?

Did you not read the bit I wrote underneath?

There's also proposals for a fourth Liverpool-Manchester express every hour, if that goes ahead and is via Chat Moss then that'll could use some of the 8 spare 319s, although when Liverpool-Scarborough is diverted that way they'd then be surplus unless it conincides with either Victoria-Stalybridge or the CLC line being electrified.

Ideally, if there are spare 319s then it'd make sense to give a few to Neville Hill to replace the 321/322s which are better suited with NXEA's big fleet of 321s).

That's the kind of suggestion which'll make Metro kick up a fuss - replacing trains they sponsor with older trains.

 

[westcoaster]

319/4 & /2 have first calss and / 0& /3 do not have it.

319/0 are 3+2 throughout the train
319/2 are 2+2 throughout apart from where the snug used to be theses are now 3+2 ( although some are 2+2 which are an oddity)
319/3 are 3+2 throughout the train
319/4 are 2+2 throughout the train