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319 allocation - there's 8 left over!

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swt_passenger

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If this is the case then I would do as so:

WARNING: some ideas may be controversial (especially NXEA) ;)

Class 377/5 - Firstly I would send these all to Southern and as part of this scheme I would electrify Oxted-Uckfield and the whole of the Oxted line can go to EMU operation.

I don't see much point in a 'suggestion' that the 377/5s return to SN because this is already guaranteed, it is why the interiors already have SN layout and upholstery, however they won't be used as part of an electrification scheme because the recent WCML RUS suggests a fair number will be needed to boost the Milton Keynes - Croydon service to 8 car and 2 tph. Remaining units are already spoken for strengthening Brighton line services from 8 to 12 car.
 
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Minstral25

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Class 377/5 are Southern's anyway on lease to FCC until the new Thameslink units are built, so their destination is simple. Good idea to electrify Oxted but I would suspect they will be used to strengthen existing services and remove the 442's and 313's from the franchise. (don't forget the new Thameslink franchise will take over a lot of Southern's existing routes)

On the GW front - won't the Oxford and Newbury services be IEP units. Then what services will the 319's run? The locals from Reading to London will be fully taken over by Crossrail - hopefully extended to Reading but even if not the Oxford/Newbury trains will call Ealing Bdway, (Slough??), Maidenhead, Taplow and Reading before continuing to Oxford or Newbury.

So all the 319's will be available for North of Watford Junction unless they decide to replace the 313's on the Moorgate routes. Reforming refurbished 319's to 6 car sets for use on the great northern if they fit in the tunnels would be a good idea as they are dual voltage already.
 

pemma

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So all the 319's will be available for North of Watford Junction unless they decide to replace the 313's on the Moorgate routes. Reforming refurbished 319's to 6 car sets for use on the great northern if they fit in the tunnels would be a good idea as they are dual voltage already.

319s won't fit through the tunnels on Moorgate.
 

tbtc

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the recent WCML RUS suggests a fair number will be needed to boost the Milton Keynes - Croydon service to 8 car and 2 tph

Thats good news - impressive that a service can grow like this which avoids central London!

One day I hope this will become a Birmingham - Brighton service. One day...
 
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Just an idea but would a 319 fit in the 507/8 tunnels if so How about Wire Wallgate-Kirkby and have them change from Third Rail to OHL at Kirkby may also require some track doubling after Rainford but the demand is probably there Wigan-Liverpool via Kirkby direct? Think all Platforms can take 4 car units? i know they can Wigan-Kirkby
 

anthony263

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If there are 8 class 319's available, give them to FGW so that they can run a hourly EMU service from Bristol TM to Swansea, that should justify the wires being extended west of Cardiff
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just an idea but would a 319 fit in the 507/8 tunnels if so How about Wire Wallgate-Kirkby and have them change from Third Rail to OHL at Kirkby may also require some track doubling after Rainford but the demand is probably there Wigan-Liverpool via Kirkby direct? Think all Platforms can take 4 car units? i know they can Wigan-Kirkby

I think there was a proposal at 1 time to transfer some class 319's to merseyrail.
 

Class172

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If there are 8 class 319's available, give them to FGW so that they can run a hourly EMU service from Bristol TM to Swansea, that should justify the wires being extended west of Cardiff
It's now been said that these calculations were made without accounting for maintenance/spare units in depot etc; so in fact there won't really be the 8 spare units.
 

ukrob

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The calculations are pretty useless to be honest.

Along with maintenance, they do not take into account inter-working, service patterns, or any extra services which are envisaged to be introduced (such as the additional Liverpool - Wigan fast).
 

Minstral25

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319s won't fit through the tunnels on Moorgate.

Really - I honestly do not know if the 319's will fit in the tunnel but the 319's are the same width and are only 9 inches taller than a 313. Additionally the pantograph on the 313 sticks above the unit but on the 319 it is in a well so there is probably very little in the gauging of the two units.

The reason the 313s remain on the route is because they are dual voltage units and there is a lack of dual voltage units to replace them.
 

jopsuk

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378s have been tested down the Moorgate branch, haven't they? As far as I can figure out, they may well be taller than 319s? They do though (for running on LU infrastructure) have the tripcock and Moorgate control needed on the line- which a 319 would need fitted, and the platforms down there are six-car, not ideal territory for a four car unit.
 

anthony263

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378s have been tested down the Moorgate branch, haven't they? As far as I can figure out, they may well be taller than 319s? They do though (for running on LU infrastructure) have the tripcock and Moorgate control needed on the line- which a 319 would need fitted, and the platforms down there are six-car, not ideal territory for a four car unit.

I havent heard anything about a class 378 going down the moorgate line.
 

sprinterguy

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On the GW front - won't the Oxford and Newbury services be IEP units. Then what services will the 319's run? The locals from Reading to London will be fully taken over by Crossrail - hopefully extended to Reading but even if not the Oxford/Newbury trains will call Ealing Bdway, (Slough??), Maidenhead, Taplow and Reading before continuing to Oxford or Newbury.
As far as I know none of the GWML IEPs are intended for the Oxford/Newbury electrification: At the current time the GWML is intended to get eleven 8-car electric IEPs, nine 5-car electric IEPs and thirty five 5-car Bi-mode IEPs.
 

ainsworth74

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At the current time the GWML is intended to get eleven 8-car electric IEPs, nine 5-car electric IEPs and thirty five 5-car Bi-mode IEPs.

And may God help us all if those formations don't get bumped up in size to mostly 8-car units. It's going to be the Voyagers all over again...
 

Class172

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As far as I know none of the GWML IEPs are intended for the Oxford/Newbury electrification: At the current time the GWML is intended to get eleven 8-car electric IEPs, nine 5-car electric IEPs and thirty five 5-car Bi-mode IEPs.
35 Bi-modes!! What's the point, it's such a waste!? Why can't we just add a pantograph car to the 22x - that would increase capacity also.
 

YorkshireBear

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As far as I know none of the GWML IEPs are intended for the Oxford/Newbury electrification: At the current time the GWML is intended to get eleven 8-car electric IEPs, nine 5-car electric IEPs and thirty five 5-car Bi-mode IEPs.

I sigh everytime i read this figure anywhere.
Id say 9 car electrics..... maybe 8 car bi modes and the numbers need redoing they dont need that many bi modes. Mostly electrics, How many diagrams actually go beyond the wires if you consider that HST still taking trains to plymouth penzance etc.....

319s if they fit in all the current 323 platfrosm (hadfield traiangle services) Then the 323s can run as 6 car on other parts of NW network? then thats a capcity increase on both routes.
 

sprinterguy

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319s if they fit in all the current 323 platfrosm (hadfield traiangle services) Then the 323s can run as 6 car on other parts of NW network? then thats a capcity increase on both routes.
That's a really good idea. If there are insufficient 319s available to replace all of the 323s outright, then use some of the 319s to work 323 routes and allow the 323s to be doubled up to work the busiest newly electrified lines. Great stuff!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
35 Bi-modes!! What's the point, it's such a waste!? Why can't we just add a pantograph car to the 22x - that would increase capacity also.
I'm thoroughly bemused by the IEP order as well. Firstly, doesn't the DfT realise the inefficiencies in terms of capacity and staffing when two 5-car units are run together to provide a "proper length" train? All the same mistakes that were made with the Voyagers are going to be made again. The IEP order should be made up of a majority of nine car units.

Secondly, if we have to endure five car units, then I would think it would be better to have a more even mix of pure electric and bi-mode 5 car trains so that a pure electric and a bi-mode unit can run together as far as the limit of electrification (Providing a proper length train on the electrified core section) for the bi-mode train to then go forward alone, rather than two heavier bi-mode trains running together throughout the electrified section.

But anyway, that's pretty substantial digression.
 

YorkshireBear

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That's a really good idea. If there are insufficient 319s available to replace all of the 323s outright, then use some of the 319s to work 323 routes and allow the 323s to be doubled up to work the busiest newly electrified lines. Great stuff!

:) thanks.

I know its not a full carriage increas eon hadfield friangle but it is an increase....

I am assuming that none of hadfield services get doubled?
 

anthony263

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iTs a pity they are still refusing to run the wires to Swansea, if they had in my opinion that would have reduced the number of Bi-Modes
 

YorkshireBear

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iTs a pity they are still refusing to run the wires to Swansea, if they had in my opinion that would have reduced the number of Bi-Modes

did you see the modern railways article where they totalled up the extra lifetime costs of Bi mode IEP's ie fuel extra track wear increased maintenance costs, It was about 4 times as much as it would cost to electrify to swansea if i remember correctly.
 

tbtc

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iTs a pity they are still refusing to run the wires to Swansea, if they had in my opinion that would have reduced the number of Bi-Modes

It may be that Swansea is being used in GWML electrification like Reading was with Crossrail. Its not in the initial plans, but then the Government will announce it as an extension part way through construction, and then they can use this as a means of covering the fact that costs have increased...

I wonder whether people would accept electrification from Cardiff to Swansea if it meant cutting some of the service patterns? For example, running a Swansea - Bristol service (which would be entirely under wires) and cutting the Manchester - West Wales service back to Manchester - Cardiff? One of the reasons why the case for Swansea electrification doesn't look so good is that only the hourly HST service would be converted to electric operation (plus the bi-hourly Swanline services?). There's then the problem that if the electric London - Swansea service isn't bi-mode then you can forget about direct trains from London to West Wales. Double edged sword.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
did you see the modern railways article where they totalled up the extra lifetime costs of Bi mode IEP's ie fuel extra track wear increased maintenance costs, It was about 4 times as much as it would cost to electrify to swansea if i remember correctly.

Although Swansea isn't going to be the only place "beyond the wires" which Bi Mode trains will be needed for (aren't they running to Aberdeen etc too?)
 

YorkshireBear

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Although Swansea isn't going to be the only place "beyond the wires" which Bi Mode trains will be needed for (aren't they running to Aberdeen etc too?)

True but it wouldnt need 35 bi modes would it? thats my point, i think 35 is far too many... and 5 car just too short... its impossible for me to work out how the voyager lessons arnt perfect here...
 

anthony263

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It may be that Swansea is being used in GWML electrification like Reading was with Crossrail. Its not in the initial plans, but then the Government will announce it as an extension part way through construction, and then they can use this as a means of covering the fact that costs have increased...

I wonder whether people would accept electrification from Cardiff to Swansea if it meant cutting some of the service patterns? For example, running a Swansea - Bristol service (which would be entirely under wires) and cutting the Manchester - West Wales service back to Manchester - Cardiff? One of the reasons why the case for Swansea electrification doesn't look so good is that only the hourly HST service would be converted to electric operation (plus the bi-hourly Swanline services?). There's then the problem that if the electric London - Swansea service isn't bi-mode then you can forget about direct trains from London to West Wales. Double edged sword.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

)

Swansea - Cardiff, could easily have the london & manchester services as well as a hourly Swansea - Bristol service. only other option i can think of ito yes cut the manchester services so that they start from Cardiff and have the Cardiff - Holyhead services run from Swansea/west wales with the new swanline to Bristol leaving Swansea at 50 minutes past the hour instead of 10 minutes past the hour at present.

As for the bi mode. yes they are ok i just think they are too short for the routes, proposed ideally trains to/from south wales to london should be 8-10 carriages. maybe some bi-modes should be kept fore services to west wales.

Had a email from roger ford today which i will try to add to this forum later but it is on wnxx as well which is showing that some of the numbers from the government concerning these new trains are not adding up.
 

tbtc

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only other option i can think of ito yes cut the manchester services so that they start from Cardiff and have the Cardiff - Holyhead services run from Swansea/west wales

I was meaning cutting the services so that there'd be an EMU from Swansea to Cardiff and then the existing DMU service to Manchester. Extending the Holyhead service instead wouldn't solve that.
 

Rhydgaled

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35 Bi-modes!! What's the point, it's such a waste!? Why can't we just add a pantograph car to the 22x - that would increase capacity also.
Because you have to release the 22x first, but with 221s running under the wires from Birmingham to Scotland, I'd say we need to get some extra Pendos to allow some 221s to be cascaded to XC to cascade an equivelent number of 220s (with a pantograph car added) to the one route bi-mode actually seems to make a bit of sence on, Paddington to Hereford/Worcester/Great Malvern. The trick then is going to be killing off everything else that DfT think they need bi-mode trains for.

iTs a pity they are still refusing to run the wires to Swansea, if they had in my opinion that would have reduced the number of Bi-Modes
Not really. I read somewhere that there is a minimum viable quantity of (I think) 70 odd bi-modes (the rest would be on East Coast), presumablly due to ecconomys of scale. The real trobble with Swansea I'm guessing is the Severn Tunnel Diversionary route (which also takes another 2-hourly (possibly doubled to hourly) bi-mode service out of Paddington to Cheltenham). If Swansea is wired you still need the bi-modes for the one day a week that services are diverted, wire Swansea and the diversionary route, and bi-mode IEP can be killed off thus:

  • East Coast's off-wire services are only 1-3 trains per day, give them a uniform fleet of electric IEPs and drag with 67s when the wires run out
  • Anything from Paddington to Taunton and beyond is too far to travel on a DMU, keep the IC125s. Divert them all via Westbury to cut down on under the wires mileage and put some of the IC125s retired from other services on XC to give quality direct Bristol - south West services.
  • Weston-Super-Mare will loose some services due to their diversion via Westbury, the rest could maybe be dragged
  • Swansea is a special case, a reversal at a station which gives you 7 mins in which to swap the 91 off a IC225 set for a TDM fitted 47 for the (max 3 per day) trains that go further, with Landore depot nearby which could become the base for 91s (they'd have to be at the London end for the loco swap).


It may be that Swansea is being used in GWML electrification like Reading was with Crossrail. Its not in the initial plans, but then the Government will announce it as an extension part way through construction, and then they can use this as a means of covering the fact that costs have increased...
I don't think so. If they don't decide to wire by the end of this year they'll have ordered the bi-modes.

I wonder whether people would accept electrification from Cardiff to Swansea if it meant cutting some of the service patterns? For example, running a Swansea - Bristol service (which would be entirely under wires) and cutting the Manchester - West Wales service back to Manchester - Cardiff? One of the reasons why the case for Swansea electrification doesn't look so good is that only the hourly HST service would be converted to electric operation (plus the bi-hourly Swanline services?). There's then the problem that if the electric London - Swansea service isn't bi-mode then you can forget about direct trains from London to West Wales. Double edged sword.
I've heard opinions that the Swanline services are underused because of infrequency. I therefore think they are crying out to go hourly with electrification. The Pembroke Dock services have a big question mark over them with IEP bi-mode anyway, Narberth tunnel might not take the longer carriges. My solution of loco-swapping an IC225 would help ensure their survival. Between Bridgend and Cardiff there is also the Maesteg service, which if ValleyLines electrification goes ahead would also benifit from electrification. I'd take the Maesteg and Swansea services and run the through to Cheltenham (which needs to be wired to allow the services from Paddington to be electric, and as part of the Severn Tunnel diversionary route) and Bristol (split off the Cardiff - Taunton).

That gives you 3 electric trains per hour between Cardiff and Bridgend, 2 between Bridgend and Swansea and an electric service between Cardiff and Bristol TM (though at the loss of the direct service to Taunton). You could cut the Manchesters at Cardiff, but you'd have to run a Cardiff - West Wales in their place anyway or extend the Portsmouth and Nottingham (diesel) services to Swansea if west Wales trains aren't going to come further east. Therefore there won't be any more services going over to electric traction if you do that.

As to the points about train lengths, you have to remember that IEP cars are 3 meters longer than mark 3s. That means an 8-car electric could be alright the GWML, with a 9-car electric for the ECML. The bi-mode version however is nonsence (though if we have to have 5-car sets, an even mix of 5-car bi-modes and 5-car EMUs running 1 EMU and 1 bi-mode in multiple with the EMU stopping at the end of the wires and the 5-car bi-mode carrying on would be the best of a bad bunch).
 

anthony263

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Because you have to release the 22x first, but with 221s running under the wires from Birmingham to Scotland, I'd say we need to get some extra Pendos to allow some 221s to be cascaded to XC to cascade an equivelent number of 220s (with a pantograph car added) to the one route bi-mode actually seems to make a bit of sence on, Paddington to Hereford/Worcester/Great Malvern. The trick then is going to be killing off everything else that DfT think they need bi-mode trains for.

Not really. I read somewhere that there is a minimum viable quantity of (I think) 70 odd bi-modes (the rest would be on East Coast), presumablly due to ecconomys of scale. The real trobble with Swansea I'm guessing is the Severn Tunnel Diversionary route (which also takes another 2-hourly (possibly doubled to hourly) bi-mode service out of Paddington to Cheltenham). If Swansea is wired you still need the bi-modes for the one day a week that services are diverted, wire Swansea and the diversionary route, and bi-mode IEP can be killed off thus:

  • East Coast's off-wire services are only 1-3 trains per day, give them a uniform fleet of electric IEPs and drag with 67s when the wires run out
  • Anything from Paddington to Taunton and beyond is too far to travel on a DMU, keep the IC125s. Divert them all via Westbury to cut down on under the wires mileage and put some of the IC125s retired from other services on XC to give quality direct Bristol - south West services.
  • Weston-Super-Mare will loose some services due to their diversion via Westbury, the rest could maybe be dragged
  • Swansea is a special case, a reversal at a station which gives you 7 mins in which to swap the 91 off a IC225 set for a TDM fitted 47 for the (max 3 per day) trains that go further, with Landore depot nearby which could become the base for 91s (they'd have to be at the London end for the loco swap).


I don't think so. If they don't decide to wire by the end of this year they'll have ordered the bi-modes.

I've heard opinions that the Swanline services are underused because of infrequency. I therefore think they are crying out to go hourly with electrification. The Pembroke Dock services have a big question mark over them with IEP bi-mode anyway, Narberth tunnel might not take the longer carriges. My solution of loco-swapping an IC225 would help ensure their survival. Between Bridgend and Cardiff there is also the Maesteg service, which if ValleyLines electrification goes ahead would also benifit from electrification. I'd take the Maesteg and Swansea services and run the through to Cheltenham (which needs to be wired to allow the services from Paddington to be electric, and as part of the Severn Tunnel diversionary route) and Bristol (split off the Cardiff - Taunton).

That gives you 3 electric trains per hour between Cardiff and Bridgend, 2 between Bridgend and Swansea and an electric service between Cardiff and Bristol TM (though at the loss of the direct service to Taunton). You could cut the Manchesters at Cardiff, but you'd have to run a Cardiff - West Wales in their place anyway or extend the Portsmouth and Nottingham (diesel) services to Swansea if west Wales trains aren't going to come further east. Therefore there won't be any more services going over to electric traction if you do that.

As to the points about train lengths, you have to remember that IEP cars are 3 meters longer than mark 3s. That means an 8-car electric could be alright the GWML, with a 9-car electric for the ECML. The bi-mode version however is nonsence (though if we have to have 5-car sets, an even mix of 5-car bi-modes and 5-car EMUs running 1 EMU and 1 bi-mode in multiple with the EMU stopping at the end of the wires and the 5-car bi-mode carrying on would be the best of a bad bunch).

A lot of good points you have raised. Hitachi have said that the Bi-modes can be easily converted to full emu's when the wires are extended, so maybe if/when the wires do reach Swansea this can happen as well as ordering a few more carriages to increase the trains to 8 carriages. I do agree with using some of the IC225's on the London - South Wales & London - Bristol TM services as a diesel locomotive could be easily attached to the train to haul it bto west wales, Exeter, Plymouth & Penzance etc.

I would wire Severn Tunnel/Swindon/Bristol Parkway - Cheltenham & Birmingham as it will allow crosscountry services to switch to Bi-mode's and hopefully have reduced journey times, also as you suggested an hourly Swansea- Cheltenham EMU service could be introduced.

Wiring Bristol Parkway-Gloucester/cheltenham also has another benefit of allowing FGW to introduce an additional hourly emu service between Gloucester & Bristol TM in addition to the houlry Great Malvern/Cheltenham - Bristol- Weymouth service which should help to cut overcrowding along the route between Bristol TM & Gloucester.wiring the severn tunnel diversionary route also merans that the number of bi-mode trains for the London - south wales & london - Cheltenham routes can be heavily reduced.

A point has been raised on there being a shortage of paths between Bridgend & Cardiff for additional trains. my suggestion with a hourly swanline EMU service which should save at least 8 minutes off its journey time compared to today is to get it to serve a new station at Brackla and off peak swanline services can skip calling at Pyle which will be served by the hourly Manchester -west wales services which should save a few more minutes.

I would suggest modifying the layout at Bridgend so that freights traveling via the vale of glamorgan line do not have to crossover and travel through platform 1 to acess the vale route which does cause a bit of delays at times. If this is done perhaps additional paths could be introduced for passenger services Maesteg- Ebbw vale & Fishguard/Carmarthen - Morriston - Cardiff.

hopefully when money becomes available teh wires should run from Bristol & Newbury to Taunton/Exeter which will allow local services to go over to EMU operation which allows for an increase in capacity and emu's ahve much great acceleration rates so that they dont hold up services following them as what happens sometimes today with the Taunton - Cardiff services which do hold up the crosscountry services which leaves Taunton about 12 minutes after it.

A hourly limited stop services could be introduced between London & Exeter which will serve Pewsey, Bedwyn & Westbury and this should provide extra capacity and reduced overcrowding between Exeter & london, i also suggest extending a number of the services which terminate at Bristol TM to the west country.
 

YorkshireBear

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I would wire Severn Tunnel/Swindon/Bristol Parkway - Cheltenham & Birmingham as it will allow crosscountry services to switch to Bi-mode's and hopefully have reduced journey times, also as you suggested an hourly Swansea- Cheltenham EMU service could be introduced.

In diesel mode the IEP has 100% acceleration the voyager has 97% (modern railways)

Basically they are not that different, so unfortunately time would not really be saved. But i still agree as its all about fossil fuels noise and emitions which are good benefits within themselves.
 

tbtc

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I don't think so. If they don't decide to wire by the end of this year they'll have ordered the bi-modes

...but the bi-modes could easily be used elsewhere (if they aren't converted to "normal" electric units).

For example you could run the MML with bi-modes (thus allowing gradual electrification to Leicester, to East Midlands Parkway, to Derby/Nottingham). Releases a few HSTs/ 222s which could go to XC?

Or you could use bi-modes on routes like London - Hull. Releases some 180s which could go elsewhere?
 

YorkshireBear

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...but the bi-modes could easily be used elsewhere (if they aren't converted to "normal" electric units).

For example you could run the MML with bi-modes (thus allowing gradual electrification to Leicester, to East Midlands Parkway, to Derby/Nottingham). Releases a few HSTs/ 222s which could go to XC?

Or you could use bi-modes on routes like London - Hull. Releases some 180s which could go elsewhere?

Add to that GC VWC XC FTPE many many places could use themit is incredible to think though that if hitachi crack this we could have some very useful units for allowing gradual electrification and diversions during planned engineering works
 
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