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321448 demonstrator

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stu227

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Little late to the party but there's a review of this unit here if anyone wants to look: http://www.bbarua.org.uk/ - including a good photo of that set of seats which have been placed absurdly close to each other.

The reason you can hear the doors rattle so much is because the rest of the train has been sealed for the aircon, and what few soft furnishings there were on the units have been removed, so the rattles are made more prominent - they're not worse, just more audible.

It's not a bad job, considering it's been obviously a victim of 'value engineering'.
 
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samuelmorris

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It does point out though - why wasn't something done about that? I haven't had the pleasure of travelling in the demonstrator yet but I can see exactly why the doors would be an issue - I really hope they deal with it by the time the rest of the fleet is refurbished.
 

samuelmorris

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Finally had the opportunity to travel on this today. Sadly not at speed due to a 40mph or so line speed from engineering works (or rather, sitting behind a 315 sharing the fast line).

Overall, I like the finish of the interior. It's already in a pretty unpleasant state from not having been cleaned recently, but that's not exactly any fault of the design. Although the seats (not the colour scheme that the full fleet will see, I'm sure) are a little garish, I like the rest of the interior colour scheme, and the replaced panels do very well to hide the original interior style of the Mk3 EMUs. The only real giveaways are the ashbourne-style seats in 'High density' and the shape of the window apertures themselves.

The ashbourne seats are nothing like as soft as they are on the rest of the fleet, however, and although not as firm as, for example the 377/6 seats, I'd say they compare fairly similarly with Desiro seats. I'm not actually against this, as given how laid back this seat type is, it actually compensates quite well.

That said, I found the highback seats in the low density area far more comfortable, and not because of legroom or extra width.

The ventilation is, at present, totally unacceptable. Heating should not be running on an effectively sealed train when it's 16ºC outside. The ventilation is noticeable in the high density area, it's just that it's hot air (with some occasional cool drafts? Not sure where they were coming from). The noise of the ventilators is very broadband and subdued - far quieter than that on the Desiros and far less tonal than that on the Electrostars.

However, in the low density area, I couldn't see anything. I note the vents used are notched like those on Electrostars, but I couldn't hear any fan noise in that section at all. Anyone know what that's about?

I didn't try the toilets but the pictures from others give me a fair idea about what they'll be like. I sat in the seat in front of the non-disabled toilet for a couple of minutes, and I have to say the rattly noise of the extractor from the toilet behind my head was very annoying. That could do with looking at.

The PIS seems a bit too quiet to me, and only seemed to come from the area around the display itself - if you've got people talking loudly on the train, you won't be able to hear it in certain places. It's much louder on the other 321s. I can only assume this is because with the A/C system in the ceiling there's no room for loudspeakers.

The noise reduction in the cabin as a whole is, while not on a par with a Desiro, very welcome, and greatly improves the experience. Traction motor noise is still far higher than modern stock, but if the re-tractioning goes ahead with the refurbishment, that won't matter anyway. Transformer noise in the power car was excellent, that's been greatly reduced (or perhaps simply the mounts have been replaced after all these yeaers :D )

The door sounders are welcome, but a bit cheap-sounding (and why a continuous tone when the doors are released, I thought regulations specified it must be multiple beeps?). I notice a second 'button' with a different symbol on it. Don't know what that's for? It's on the outside as well, so I didn't think it was a door close.

Also, door control buttons on only one side - still? It doesn't seem like that would have been too difficult to change...

I can also confirm the problem with banging doors on Mk 3 EMUs remains unresolved with them - that could really do with sorting, as now the rest of the unit is so quiet, it's even more obvious.

Overall, I quite like the unit itself, but it was impossible to enjoy the experience due to the stifling heat. If they sort that out, it makes for quite an impressive unit to travel on - plus of course the rattling doors.
 

david_VI

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448 is having problems again. Been hiding in Ilford a while.. back out now but I believe it's too heavy so can't run on it's own. Weight from the AC units I think.
 

SprinterMan

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448 is having problems again. Been hiding in Ilford a while.. back out now but I believe it's too heavy so can't run on it's own. Weight from the AC units I think.

Oh dear, it does really need an AC traction package as well now then :P
 

david_VI

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Just realised that isn't clear AC as in Air Con. I forgot that our trains are AC 25k also ;)
 

zn1

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Bear in mind that only 425 had aircon fitted originally and this was a retro fit experiment done by NSE within a year of 321/4 entering squadron service..Im of the opinion that if a fleet isn't fitted with a system during build then unless it affects safety then it shouldn't be fitted, regardless of how annoyed the punters get, 321 has never air con except in drivers cabs (another mod).

it always seemed strange that 317/1 had air-con and the 321's didn't, considering they were built as a regional suburban long distance emu, obviously this was a cost issue during build, and hence it was omitted from the design

by having a demo unit out these snags can now be sorted out,

Considering how much heavier EMU's built today, since the British Rail builds, how much of all of the gear is really needed ?

if 448 has braking issues - it could be a simple act of changing to different type of brake pad, changing to a larger caliper for the brake pads or adjusting the westcode to accept the slight increase in weight,
 

samuelmorris

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It does when it can't stop itself like it should do! :D

Perhaps this explains why it was perpetually being shunted up the backside by the unit behind it when it came to an emergency stop with me on it a couple of months back. I assumed it was because it was wet - you're inevitably going to get uneven braking in those situations, but perhaps the braking isn't up to scratch - that's definitely going to need sorting out!
 

TEW

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321448 is out today. Rear unit on the 1548 Liverpool Street-Braintree.
 

samuelmorris

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Seen this out a lot recently, had another ride on it a few weeks ago - still stifling when it's a hot day and there still seems to be no ventilation!

Originally I seem to recall there being claims this would only be in service for a year which we must be heading up to now (albeit not all of it in service). Does anyone know what the current chronology of things is for the demonstrator unit?
 

physics34

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Bear in mind that only 425 had aircon fitted originally and this was a retro fit experiment done by NSE within a year of 321/4 entering squadron service..Im of the opinion that if a fleet isn't fitted with a system during build then unless it affects safety then it shouldn't be fitted, regardless of how annoyed the punters get, 321 has never air con except in drivers cabs (another mod).

it always seemed strange that 317/1 had air-con and the 321's didn't, considering they were built as a regional suburban long distance emu, obviously this was a cost issue during build, and hence it was omitted from the design

by having a demo unit out these snags can now be sorted out,

Considering how much heavier EMU's built today, since the British Rail builds, how much of all of the gear is really needed ?

if 448 has braking issues - it could be a simple act of changing to different type of brake pad, changing to a larger caliper for the brake pads or adjusting the westcode to accept the slight increase in weight,

i think 317s had "pressure ventilation" not air con as we know it. JUst basically big fans on the roof. Same as 455s.
 

Bletchleyite

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Little late to the party but there's a review of this unit here if anyone wants to look: http://www.bbarua.org.uk/ - including a good photo of that set of seats which have been placed absurdly close to each other.

The original Class 321 layout has a set of seats that are ridiculously spaced in that manner, they are the facing seats in the non-First Class end section.

Neil
 

nesw

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I believe it's with AGA until July. I think original plan was for it to go back last autumn for re-traction and then come back for further tests but this appears to have changed.
 

edwin_m

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Wouldn't suprise me if this is quietly forgotten unless/until it looks like making the difference between a TOC leasing some or not. Scotrail have taken some 321s in their current condition (as regards traction package at least), and none of the current 321 users has a franchise renewal coming up, so there's no immediate prospect of them going off lease.

Northern needs EMUs but I suggest the approaches of bidders will be one of:
- cosmetic refurbishment only, aiming to win on lowest cost.
- new build, aiming to win over the "no cast-offs" faction.
- intermediate approach of thorough refurbishment so the passengers think it's a new train, but not spending on the things they don't see.

The 321 already has a fairly energy-efficient phase angle control, unlike 455s which are still burning power in resistors, and with only 1/4 of axles motored the saving from regenerative braking isn't huge either. So the immediate market for a re-tractioned 321 (or 319 or 317 for that matter) is a bit bleak.
 
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smudga331

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6 Oct 2014
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I read in Rail magazine somewhere that 379013 is having its batteries removed so that battery power can be trialled on older EMU's. Could the demonstrator be a good candidate for this? or am i being too optimistic and hopeful? :D
 

Class377/5

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I read in Rail magazine somewhere that 379013 is having its batteries removed so that battery power can be trialled on older EMU's. Could the demonstrator be a good candidate for this? or am i being too optimistic and hopeful? :D

It was only ever going to have batteries installed for a short time so saying they are only being removed to go elsewhere is false. They were always going to do that.

They may now be planning trials on an older unit but that's not the reason why they are coming out of 379013.
 
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