4cig and 4vep

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UP13

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I'm vaguely aware of the differences between the two.

I know that 4cigs were originally for the BML (hence the name) and PDL, and that 4veps were mainly stopping/semi-fast mainline trains.

Could the collective wisdom on here perhaps enlighten me to which diagrams the respective types would have been allocated to, particularly in the Network South East era. Being honest they pretty much look the same to me.
 
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Snow1964

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The CIGs came in two batches, first about 1963-64 to replace the 1930s Sussex Electrification stock, were an update of the Kent coast CEPs. Main difference was a tidier front end and motors under a central coach, instead of motors at outer ends. The guards compartment in motor coach was therefore in middle instead of smaller ones behind each cab.

Second batches were built 1966-1974, and the batches of VEPs and CIGs were built same years. The later CIGs took over from the 1937-38 4-COR units. Some of the earlier VEPs were all blue rather than mainline blue+grey, but later on the all blue was restricted to suburban stock.

The VEPs were for stopping trains so had doors at every seating bay, the CEPs only had doors at end and a middle door. The guards van was bigger (with 2 double doors on a VEP). The location of first class was also swapped, on CIGs was on outer (cab) end, on VEPs was on other end, with toilet by gangway connection. Both had 4 compartments but on CEPs one was an 8 seat second (but those in the know knew it had more legroom as it was first class size).

The CIGs composite vehicles had an odd row of 4 seats (by middle door), otherwise were 2+2 seating. I think these had tables originally but they were detachable and I only remember seeing them with small drinks tables below the windows. VEPs had 3+2 seating and because of the doors the luggage racks were V shaped metal racks facing sideways above the seat backs.

I remember VEPs with orange curtains, but I think they used to get dragged into the doorways by disembarking passengers, so didn’t last very long, but the CIGs kept them longer. In later years another first class compartment got downgraded, and the VEPs had part of luggage van converted to 2 extra seating bays of seats (but both rows didn’t all get doors). The lighting and saloon panelling also got changed in later life, and public address was added

There was a buffet equivalent of CIGs (BIGs) which simply substituted the trailer second for a buffet car

By Network SouthEast era, some buffet cars had been replaced by converted hauled stock, and the VEPs were used on stopping trains and busy peak hour trains. However in later years wasn’t uncommon to see mixed formations.
 
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yorksrob

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Going by the trains I used to use most often at the time:

4VEP's were usually on the stoppers between Ashford (Kent) and Victoria/Charing Cross. Semi fasts from Charing Cross to the Kent Coast could be either VEP's or CEP's (later some CIG's).

The East Coastway services and Hastings - Victoria services always seemed to be CIG's when I used them.
 

Helvellyn

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The first batch of 20 VEPs were built for the Bournemouth Line electrification to work alongside the REPs+TCs that were allocated the fast workings, the VEPs getting the slow services. I think there were some subtle differences in the electrical equipment that meant when the NSE era refurbishment scheme commenced, which including converting some of the luggage van space to additional seating, the motor cars from the first twenty units went back into that batch, whereas for the remainder the rebuilt motor cars went into any of the remaining 170+ units (the motor cars took longer to refurbish due to the structural changes, so a couple of spare motor cars were refurbished early on, thus allowing units to be released back to traffic quicker rather than wait for the original motor car to be completed).
 

farleigh

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Going by the trains I used to use most often at the time:

4VEP's were usually on the stoppers between Ashford (Kent) and Victoria/Charing Cross. Semi fasts from Charing Cross to the Kent Coast could be either VEP's or CEP's (later some CIG's).

The East Coastway services and Hastings - Victoria services always seemed to be CIG's when I used them.
It was a mixture of Veps and Cigs on the East Coastway by the early 90s. I always wanted a Cig.

Never saw a Cep on East Coastway of Vep on Hastings to Charing Cross although Cigs were definitely used on that line on occasion
 

yorksrob

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It was a mixture of Veps and Cigs on the East Coastway by the early 90s. I always wanted a Cig.

Never saw a Cep on East Coastway of Vep on Hastings to Charing Cross although Cigs were definitely used on that line on occasion

Yes, I remember getting CIG's between Tonbridge and Hastings a couple of times. Mainly CEP's on that line though.
 

JonathanH

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Yes, I remember getting CIG's between Tonbridge and Hastings a couple of times. Mainly CEP's on that line though.
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4CIG.html

From July 1991 the South Eastern division gained their first 4 CIG allocation based at Ramsgate depot, these units displacing the surviving 4 CAP units to the suburban area to allow withdrawal of 4 COM and 4 EPB units. Units allocated to the South Eastern division started to have one further first-class compartment downgraded to standard from April 1993; this being the compartment adjacent to the existing standard one at the outer end of the coach. However, the seating was not modified and amended capacity of each DTC was 12 first and 42 standard with the unit total altered to 24 first and 212 standard. These units were subsequently altered back to standard as most diagrams were by then on the Hastings line where a higher proportion of first-class accommodation was required.

The CIG fleet on South Eastern was quite small - - 1806-13/39-43/70-73/76-79 - with 1701/42/48 coming later in Connex days. I think the allocations varied a bit by timetable but I had most of my haulage of them on Hastings line services.

2002-03 diagrams for CIGs were the following, taken from https://web.archive.org/web/20031117002606/http://www.prar.fsnet.co.uk/CSE_4CIG_diagrams_v2.html although I have to concede that most of the CEPs had gone by then.

Mondays to Fridays​

Diagram RM201​


5W51 05+50 Ashford International Tonbridge
5E24 07+39 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H86 08:01 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
2H34 09:10 Charing Cross Tonbridge
2E68 16:00 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
1H69 16:33 Tunbridge Wells Cannon Street
2H19 17:40 Cannon Street Tunbridge Wells
2H31 18:31 Tunbridge Wells Hastings
2H60 22:11 Hastings Tonbridge

Diagram RM202​


5W51 05+50 Ashford International Tonbridge
5E24 07+39 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H86 08:01 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
2H34 09:10 Charing Cross Tonbridge
1E71 12:16 Tonbridge Horsham
1J95 15:32 Horsham Tonbridge
5E34 16+53 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H75 17:17 Tunbridge Wells Cannon Street
2H21 18:23 Cannon Street Tunbridge Wells
5E41 19+16 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge
5R51 20+06 Tonbridge Ashford International

Diagram RM203​


5A28 05+30 Ashford International Maidstone East
2N28 05:56 Maidstone East Ramsgate
2W32 07:28 Ramsgate Tonbridge
2W28 09:22 Tonbridge Charing Cross
2R26 10:30 Charing Cross Dover Priory
2W54 13:19 Dover Priory Charing Cross
1R48 15:30 Charing Cross Ramsgate
2W88 18:06 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2R86 21:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate

Diagram RM204​


2A02 05:35 Ashford International Victoria
2F40 07:49 Victoria Maidstone East
2A14 09:00 Maidstone East Victoria
2N54 11:18 Victoria Canterbury West
2A38 13:42 Canterbury West Victoria
2N74 15:48 Victoria Ashford International
1N26 17:30 Ashford International Charing Cross
2R74 19:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate
2W06 22:20 Ramsgate Ashford International

Diagram RM205​


2A02 05:35 Ashford International Victoria
2F40 07:49 Victoria Maidstone East
2A14 09:00 Maidstone East Victoria
2N80 16:57 Victoria Ashford International
2A58 19:00 Ashford International Victoria
2F32 21:11 Victoria Ashford International

Diagram RM206​


5A30 06+03 Ashford International Maidstone East
2N30 06:36 Maidstone East Margate
1W31 08:27 Margate Tonbridge
1W30 09:54 Tonbridge Charing Cross
1R30 11:00 Charing Cross Margate
1W57 13:30 Margate Tonbridge
1W56 14:55 Tonbridge Charing Cross
1R52 16:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate
2W94 19:15 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2R92 22:00 Charing Cross Ashford International

Diagram RM207​


5R27 07+20 Ashford International Canterbury West
2W26 07:49 Canterbury West Tonbridge
2H56 08:56 Tonbridge Charing Cross
1R24 10:00 Charing Cross Margate
1W53 12:30 Margate Tonbridge
1W52 13:55 Tonbridge Charing Cross
1R46 15:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate
2W78 17:33 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2R80 20:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate

Diagram RM208​


5U31 05+45 Ramsgate Margate
2W20 06:08 Margate Charing Cross
1R18 08:55 Charing Cross Tonbridge
1R19 09:42 Tonbridge Ramsgate
5U38 16+01 Ramsgate Margate
2W73 16:21 Margate Ashford International
2W72 17:21 Ashford International Charing Cross
2H22 18:45 Charing Cross Hastings
5H89 20+32 Hastings St Leonards (West Marina) CS

Diagram RM209​


5U31 05+45 Ramsgate Margate
2W20 06:08 Margate Charing Cross
1R18 08:55 Charing Cross Tonbridge
1R19 09:42 Tonbridge Ramsgate
2W72 16:13 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2H22 18:45 Charing Cross Hastings
5H89 20+32 Hastings St Leonards (West Marina) CS

Diagram RM210​


2W18 06:12 Ramsgate Charing Cross
5J20 08+33 Charing Cross Grove Park CSD
5U70 14+24 Grove Park CSD Victoria
2K46 16:24 Victoria Rochester
5P70 17+39 Rochester Victoria
2N90 18:48 Victoria Ashford International

Diagram RM211​


2W18 06:12 Ramsgate Charing Cross
5J20 08+33 Charing Cross Grove Park CSD
5U70 14+24 Grove Park CSD Victoria
2K46 16:24 Victoria Rochester
5P70 17+39 Rochester Victoria
2N90 18:48 Victoria Ashford International

Diagram RM212​


2W22 06:59 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2R20 09:30 Charing Cross Dover Priory
2W48 12:10 Dover Priory Charing Cross
2R44 14:30 Charing Cross Ramsgate
2W79 17:04 Ramsgate Ashford International
2W78 18:22 Ashford International Charing Cross
2R80 20:00 Charing Cross Ramsgate

Diagram RM213​


5H13 05:55 St Leonards (West Marina) CS Ore
2H52 06:23 Ore Charing Cross
1H02 08:15 Charing Cross Hastings
2H62 10:08 Hastings Charing Cross
1H16 12:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H70 14:08 Hastings Charing Cross
2H16 16:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H50 18:15 Hastings Charing Cross
1H24 20:10 Charing Cross Hastings
5H93 21+50 Hastings Tonbridge

Diagram RM214​


5H13 05:55 St Leonards (West Marina) CS Ore
2H52 06:23 Ore Charing Cross
1H02 08:15 Charing Cross Hastings
2H62 10:08 Hastings Charing Cross
1H16 12:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H70 14:08 Hastings Charing Cross
2H16 16:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H50 18:15 Hastings Charing Cross
1H24 20:10 Charing Cross Hastings
5H93 21+50 Hastings Tonbridge

Diagram RM215​


5H21 06+50 St Leonards (West Marina) CS Hastings
2H54 07:05 Hastings Charing Cross
1H04 09:05 Charing Cross Hastings
5H57 10+56 Hastings St Leonards (West Marina) CS
5H29 16+18 St Leonards (West Marina) CS Hastings
1H74 16:49 Hastings Charing Cross
2R72 18:40 Charing Cross Ashford International
5R78 23+13 Ashford International Ramsgate

Diagram RM216​


2R39 04:53 Tonbridge Margate
2W28 07:03 Margate Charing Cross
2R26 10:30 Charing Cross Dover Priory
5W65 12+28 Dover Priory Ashford International
1N69 14:30 Ashford International Cannon Street
1A29 16:08 Cannon Street Ashford International
2A52 17:33 Ashford International Victoria
2N92 19:18 Victoria Ashford International
5R78 23+13 Ashford International Ramsgate

Diagram RM217​


2R39 04:53 Tonbridge Ramsgate
5U33 07+08 Ramsgate Margate
1N20 07:32 Margate Charing Cross
1H08 10:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H66 12:08 Hastings Charing Cross
1H28 14:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H75 16:27 Hastings Cannon Street
2H21 18:23 Cannon Street Hastings
5H61 20+19 Hastings Tunbridge Wells
2E53 21:10 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge
2E52 21:47 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2E55 22:10 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge

Diagram RM218​


2N06 04:58 Tonbridge Charing Cross
2R04 06:25 Charing Cross Ashford International
2F56 08:15 Ashford International Victoria
2N48 10:18 Victoria Canterbury West
2A34 12:42 Canterbury West Victoria
2N68 14:48 Victoria Ashford International
1N78 16:28 Ashford International Charing Cross
1R66 17:57 Charing Cross Tonbridge
2R68 18:40 Tonbridge Margate
5U76 20+30 Margate Ramsgate
2W04 21:20 Ramsgate Charing Cross
2R06 00:06 Charing Cross Tonbridge

Diagram RM219​


5E04 05+32 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2E05 05:44 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge
2E74 06:22 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
5E74 06+37 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge
2H03 06:52 Tonbridge Hastings
2H57 08:10 Hastings Tonbridge
5E28 09+38 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H60 09:57 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
1H12 11:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H68 13:08 Hastings Charing Cross
1H12 15:05 Charing Cross Hastings
2H76 17:12 Hastings Charing Cross
1H22 19:10 Charing Cross Hastings
2H60 22:11 Hastings Tonbridge

Diagram RM220​


5E18 07+12 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H53 07:38 Tunbridge Wells Cannon Street
2H09 08:43 Cannon Street Tunbridge Wells
5H09 09+43 Tunbridge Wells Hastings
1H60 10:51 Hastings Charing Cross
2H02 12:35 Charing Cross Hastings
5H67 14+28 Hastings St Leonards (West Marina) CS
5H27 15+29 St Leonards (West Marina) CS Hastings
1H69 15:52 Hastings Cannon Street
2H19 17:40 Cannon Street Hastings
5H85 19+13 Hastings St Leonards (West Marina) CS

Diagram RM221​


5E22 07+37 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H54 07:58 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
1H04 09:05 Charing Cross Tunbridge Wells
2H76 10:08 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
2H48 11:10 Charing Cross Tunbridge Wells
2H96 12:08 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
2H24 13:10 Charing Cross Tunbridge Wells
2H84 14:08 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
2H32 15:10 Charing Cross Tunbridge Wells
5E29 16+08 Tunbridge Wells Tonbridge
2E50 17:26 Tonbridge Tunbridge Wells
2H76 18:05 Tunbridge Wells Charing Cross
1H22 19:10 Charing Cross Tunbridge Wells
5Y87 20+15 Tunbridge Wells Victoria
2F36 23:11 Victoria Canterbury West
5Y92 01+22 Canterbury West Ashford International
 

yorksrob

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https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4CIG.html



The CIG fleet on South Eastern was quite small - - 1806-13/39-43/70-73/76-79 - with 1701/42/48 coming later in Connex days. I think the allocations varied a bit by timetable but I had most of my haulage of them on Hastings line services.

2002-03 diagrams for CIGs were the following, taken from https://web.archive.org/web/20031117002606/http://www.prar.fsnet.co.uk/CSE_4CIG_diagrams_v2.html although I have to concede that most of the CEPs had gone by then.

That reminds me, the VEP's had a couple of downgraded 1st class compartments as well for a while. I used to enjoy getting those as they retained first class furnishings and most of the normals didn't realise they weren't first class :)
 

WesternLancer

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I'm vaguely aware of the differences between the two.

I know that 4cigs were originally for the BML (hence the name) and PDL, and that 4veps were mainly stopping/semi-fast mainline trains.

Could the collective wisdom on here perhaps enlighten me to which diagrams the respective types would have been allocated to, particularly in the Network South East era. Being honest they pretty much look the same to me.
a version of a VEP (with extra luggage racks) - 4 VEG operated Victoria Gatwick 'rapid city link' before Gatwick Express loco hauled trains started. Had a branding along carriage side.

All the doors along the side of a VEP made them instantly recognisable to me, with different type of carriage window design too, esp upper part of the window.

And yes on east coastway it was a mix of Cig and Veps certainly by about 1984/5, a route I used daily at the time.
 

30907

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Fairly certain the second batch of VEPs was allocated to the SE Division, displacing 2HAPs to the SWD for the less busy of their suburban services. (yes, there were such back in the 70s - I could always get a seat on the 8HAP/SAP 1724 Epsom line...)
(The excellent Bloodandcustard site linked earlier doesn't yet have a 4VEP history, but further batches went to the Central and SW.)
 

Snow1964

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As built 4VEPs had 48 first & 232 second seats
There were 194 units, origiBally 7701-7894

There was for a time an 8VAB, think it was converted 1968 from units 7741+7742. It had one of the multiple unit equipped RB restaurant-buffets and extra motor coach. It’s regular working was the afternoon train with a portion for Swanage (as had power to propel a 4TC, but couldn’t heat the TC, so not ideal in winter)

Those converted to 4VEG with the extra luggage racks for Gatwick were renumbered in 79xx series

I think about 20 were later used on Connex South London metro services and lost their first class (sorry can’t remember any details, might have been known as VOP)

The first batch of 20 VEPs were built for the Bournemouth Line electrification to work alongside the REPs+TCs that were allocated the fast workings, the VEPs getting the slow services. I think there were some subtle differences in the electrical equipment that meant when the NSE era refurbishment scheme commenced, which including converting some of the luggage van space to additional seating, the motor cars from the first twenty units went back into that batch, whereas for the remainder the rebuilt motor cars went into any of the remaining 170+ units (the motor cars took longer to refurbish due to the structural changes, so a couple of spare motor cars were refurbished early on, thus allowing units to be released back to traffic quicker rather than wait for the original motor car to be completed).

They were also the only ones fitted with standard AWS from new, so stayed on Bournemouth line, as was only Southern main line equipped with standard AWS at the time.
 
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There was one CIG diagram in the late 1980s and early 1990s which took it to Smitham to form an up service to Victoria which went through Purley Oaks at 07:45. It was unusual in a number of ways.

First that it carried 1st class compartments (incidentally these were not advertised, so I actually wrote to BR to check that I could use first on a second class ticket). They said I could.

Secondly it sometime carried Sir Robert Reid (the first), who lived in Purley. I saw him once very anonymously (and I mean that in a complimentary manner) in one of the First compartments.

Thirdly (and this was in the 1990s) it crossed up slow to up fast reversible south of East Croydon. I knew a guy who was a guard at Selhurst and was on the train when it did this. He must have been new to the diagram because the move surprised him.
 

satisnek

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Were any VEPs built with the 'Trojan' style of seat fabric? I have a vague childhood memory of this and latterly assumed that they were the first batch built for the Bournemouth electrification. But published information shows these units with the blue/green checkered fabric from new. Is my memory playing tricks on me?
 

yorksrob

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Were any VEPs built with the 'Trojan' style of seat fabric? I have a vague childhood memory of this and latterly assumed that they were the first batch built for the Bournemouth electrification. But published information shows these units with the blue/green checkered fabric from new. Is my memory playing tricks on me?

I'd thought they were all built with Bournemouth Blue (Blue Green Chequered). The ones on the South Eastern in the 1980's were.

Maybe they'd run out of the Blue/Green when they were re-trimming one ?
 

satisnek

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I'd thought they were all built with Bournemouth Blue (Blue Green Chequered). The ones on the South Eastern in the 1980's were.

Maybe they'd run out of the Blue/Green when they were re-trimming one ?
Yes, maybe it was just one odd unit or a limited number. There were two different batches of VEP rubbing shoulders at Woking - the original Bournemouth ones and a later batch for the Portsmouth line. However, if the Portsmouth units had Trojan upholstery then I'm sure that it would be more widely known.
 

farleigh

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One Cig memory I have never resolved. I commuted on the Hastings to Charing Cross line in 95 and I distinctly remember one carriage of one Cig I travelled on (only once) was still in 'old style'. I am sure it had wood panelling and tungsten bulbs. I only saw this once having travelled the line hundreds of times since 87

I would be fascinated to know more
 

Journeyman

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Were any VEPs built with the 'Trojan' style of seat fabric? I have a vague childhood memory of this and latterly assumed that they were the first batch built for the Bournemouth electrification. But published information shows these units with the blue/green checkered fabric from new. Is my memory playing tricks on me?
No, they never had Trojan. Only other units operating on outer suburban and mainline services that would have had it were Phase 1 CIGs and CEPs before refurbishment, and the HAPs.

One Cig memory I have never resolved. I commuted on the Hastings to Charing Cross line in 95 and I distinctly remember one carriage of one Cig I travelled on (only once) was still in 'old style'. I am sure it had wood panelling and tungsten bulbs. I only saw this once having travelled the line hundreds of times since 87

I would be fascinated to know more
That would be 4-VEP 3582. One of its driving vehicles was badly damaged in a collision, and replaced by a driving trailer from a 4-TC unit. It survived right to the end of slam door operation and the 4-TC vehicle has been preserved.
 
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Southern

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There was one CIG diagram in the late 1980s and early 1990s which took it to Smitham to form an up service to Victoria which went through Purley Oaks at 07:45. It was unusual in a number of ways.

First that it carried 1st class compartments (incidentally these were not advertised, so I actually wrote to BR to check that I could use first on a second class ticket). They said I could.

Secondly it sometime carried Sir Robert Reid (the first), who lived in Purley. I saw him once very anonymously (and I mean that in a complimentary manner) in one of the First compartments.

Thirdly (and this was in the 1990s) it crossed up slow to up fast reversible south of East Croydon. I knew a guy who was a guard at Selhurst and was on the train when it did this. He must have been new to the diagram because the move surprised him.

National Rail Timetables from 1999/2000 mention an 0802 Smitham - Victoria, which given the timing, looks like the same train - all stations to Croydon, then Clapham and Victoria. AIUI, the service had switched to VEP/VOP operation by this point , although knowing Connex, anything might have turned up!

On a side note, when was the last time a slammer turned up on a Tattenham service? Flickr has 3524 & 3449 visiting on a tour in 1996 but nothing else...
 

farleigh

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No, they never had Trojan. Only other units operating on outer suburban and mainline services that would have had it were Phase 1 CIGs and CEPs before refurbishment, and the HAPs.


That would be 4-VEP 3582. One of its driving vehicles was badly damaged in a collision, and replaced by a driving trailer from a 4-TC unit. It survived right to the end of slam door operation and the 4-TC vehicle has been preserved.

Thank you Journeyman. I will do some research.

My memory of it being a Cig was a bit out then :smile:
 

Journeyman

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Thank you Journeyman. I will do some research.

My memory of it being a Cig was a bit out then :smile:
Well, the vehicle concerned was outwardly quite similar! I don't think I ever got to travel on it, but I did see it once or twice.
 
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National Rail Timetables from 1999/2000 mention an 0802 Smitham - Victoria, which given the timing, looks like the same train - all stations to Croydon, then Clapham and Victoria. AIUI, the service had switched to VEP/VOP operation by this point , although knowing Connex, anything might have turned up!

On a side note, when was the last time a slammer turned up on a Tattenham service? Flickr has 3524 & 3449 visiting on a tour in 1996 but nothing else...
Ah.. Apologies, yes, it was that train. Memory has faded.
 

adc82140

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Can anyone shed some light on Vep window variations? The vast vast majority retained their originals, albeit with the top openers sealed up. However I remember a couple of units had all windows replaced with single panes. I presume this was some sort of experiment. I wonder why it was never persued?

The small saloons converted from guards accommodation in the early 90s mostly had single panes of glass, but some had the original type of windows. What happened here?
 

Snow1964

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Can anyone shed some light on Vep window variations? The vast vast majority retained their originals, albeit with the top openers sealed up. However I remember a couple of units had all windows replaced with single panes. I presume this was some sort of experiment. I wonder why it was never persued?

The small saloons converted from guards accommodation in the early 90s mostly had single panes of glass, but some had the original type of windows. What happened here?

From memory it was to be a standard window size and make trains look more modern instead of a small window each side of door.

The sliding windows weren’t really needed as door drop lights provided more than enough cooling draft. The sliding windows required one pane to be recessed so it could slide behind other, and the corners of these were hard to clean, and ended up coated in brown brake dust grime. The single pane was experiment to simplify cleaning. Presumably the experiment failed as no more were done.

I think the guards conversions without single panes just used whatever windows were spare (and by the time it was done some of the CIG+VEP units had been disbanded due to accidents), others got new windows
 

JonathanH

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However I remember a couple of units had all windows replaced with single panes. I presume this was some sort of experiment. I wonder why it was never persued?

The single pane was experiment to simplify cleaning. Presumably the experiment failed as no more were done.
I'd imagine that cost could have been a major factor as well for something that was essentially an optional nicety.
 

adc82140

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From memory it was to be a standard window size and make trains look more modern instead of a small window each side of door.

The sliding windows weren’t really needed as door drop lights provided more than enough cooling draft. The sliding windows required one pane to be recessed so it could slide behind other, and the corners of these were hard to clean, and ended up coated in brown brake dust grime. The single pane was experiment to simplify cleaning. Presumably the experiment failed as no more were done.

I think the guards conversions without single panes just used whatever windows were spare (and by the time it was done some of the CIG+VEP units had been disbanded due to accidents), others got new windows
Interesting. Thanks. Cleaning does make sense. I remember Vep windows basically being covered in grime unless the unit was ex works.
 

Helvellyn

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That would be 4-VEP 3582. One of its driving vehicles was badly damaged in a collision, and replaced by a driving trailer from a 4-TC unit. It survived right to the end of slam door operation and the 4-TC vehicle has been preserved.
I get using this initially to keep a set in service but always slightly surprised a 2-HAP DTC wasn't rebuilt and refurbished longer term because by using a DTS it had no first class and no toilet. I suspect cost was a factor given corridor connections would have been required.
 
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