4cig and 4vep

[yorksrob]

I get using this initially to keep a set in service but always slightly surprised a 2-HAP DTC wasn't rebuilt and refurbished longer term because by using a DTS it had no first class and no toilet. I suspect cost was a factor given corridor connections would have been required.

You'd also have lost an inter-unit connection which would have been more difficult to retrofit.

The TC DTC seemed like a decent work arount to me.

 

[JonathanH]

I get using this initially to keep a set in service but always slightly surprised a 2-HAP DTC wasn't rebuilt and refurbished longer term because by using a DTS it had no first class and no toilet. I suspect cost was a factor given corridor connections would have been required.

3473 also had a DTS without a toilet. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt it mattered.

 

[Journeyman]

I get using this initially to keep a set in service but always slightly surprised a 2-HAP DTC wasn't rebuilt and refurbished longer term because by using a DTS it had no first class and no toilet. I suspect cost was a factor given corridor connections would have been required.

Most HAPs had gone by then, and they were full of asbestos. The set was based at Ramsgate anyway, where demand for first class was lower.

You'd also have lost an inter-unit connection which would have been more difficult to retrofit.

The TC DTC seemed like a decent work arount to me.

Yeah, it was sensible use of a spare vehicle that needed minimal alteration.

 

[zn1]

VEPS went through their CODE 1 in the last years of NSE, as mentioned their MBS was extensively rebuilt to include a small passenger saloon creating a smaller brake van, they usually got the previous units MBS reformed in to them due to the longer down time during overhaul.
VEPS also went through a renumber to reflect the upgrade of the C1, the CIGS And BIGS(im sure BIGS code a C1) also went through same renumbering after code 1
all work was done at EASTLEIGH ZG1.

flourescent door strips also became added, to aid guard and platform staff on open or semi locked doors

I was always fond the MBS small passenger compartment, on the AM trip in to Croydon it was my preferred sitting location

As part of the C1 a repaint in to NSE was always part of the job

one normal job for VEPS was the 0735 VIC East Grinstead, When a VEP came off ZG1 and had been in for its SXP at Brighton they were normally lobbed on the circuit that included this turn

During this time the CEPs/BEPS also went through a midlife overhaul, having undergone their C1 at Swindon they were given a C3 at ZG1, also including a repaint

its been a long time, some of the MAINTROL ,CRCC and SR Division old school readers will cooberate this ...(ihope)

 

[yorksrob]

The new small saloon also got recieved the only seating bays without a door (there were two seating bays with a door diagonally opposite from eachother on each side as I recall).

 

[zn1]

im sure you could sit 16 in that section they were only 4 seat bays - 2 each side, one pair of doors

 

[adc82140]

At what point did the Veps receive their internal door openers, and was there any particular reason why the CIGs never got them?

 

[JonathanH]

im sure you could sit 16 in that section they were only 4 seat bays - 2 each side, one pair of doors

18 - 2+2 either side of the doors - 3+2 on the back to back seating bay and a bench for 4 against the guards van. Took seating from 58 to 76 in that coach.

At what point did the Veps receive their internal door openers, and was there any particular reason why the CIGs never got them?

Fitted to both from new - removed from CIGs at some point but not VEPs (or other suburban stock).

 

[Journeyman]

The new small saloon also got recieved the only seating bays without a door (there were two seating bays with a door diagonally opposite from eachother on each side as I recall).

The few seats without doors were the best on the train and I'd always try and sit in them.

Fitted to both from new - removed from CIGs at some point but not VEPs (or other suburban stock).

Are you sure the CIGs ever had them? I didn't think they did.

 

[yorksrob]

The few seats without doors were the best on the train and I'd always try and sit in them.

I always preferred the standard/downgraded 1st compartment. Nice quick exit at the destination as well.

 

[WesternLancer]

I always preferred the standard/downgraded 1st compartment. Nice quick exit at the destination as well.

presumably downgraded as it had a door, and was thus drafty and less desirable as 1st class? Am I correct to recall the other compartments that remained as 1st class did not have doors? or have I got muddled up.

 

[bramling]

presumably downgraded as it had a door, and was thus drafty and less desirable as 1st class? Am I correct to recall the other compartments that remained as 1st class did not have doors? or have I got muddled up.

All VEP compartments had doors. It was the CIGs where the downgraded compartment had a door and the rest didn’t.

I certainly remember some delightful Hastings to London journeys in the (proper) first class CIG compartments, just a shame they were often vandalised in later years. ISTR Connex declassified *all* the compartments at one end of their CIGs towards the end, though unfortunately this only led to them being even more trashed by vandals.

Having said all this, being in the motored car was always preferable - though first on the VEPs was at one end at least right next door to the motor car, so still offered second prize.

 

[WesternLancer]

All VEP compartments had doors. It was the CIGs where the downgraded compartment had a door and the rest didn’t.

I certainly remember some delightful Hastings to London journeys in the (proper) first class CIG compartments, just a shame they were often vandalised in later years. ISTR Connex declassified *all* the compartments at one end of their CIGs towards the end, though unfortunately this only led to them being even more trashed by vandals.

Having said all this, being in the motored car was always preferable - though first on the VEPs was at one end at least right next door to the motor car, so still offered second prize.

Thanks for correcting me - I remember now and you have pointed out why I had confused it with the declassified CIG compartment. Yes the vandalism towards the end was sad, which connex neglected - along with the very poor condition that connex allowed them to get into more generally.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed.

I never found the door to be a problem to be honest. On a summers day, it was nice to have the droplight down.

I agree the state some of them were allowed to get into was a shame. I have an eternal admiration with SWT because they seemed to look after their slammers to the end.

 

[bramling]

Indeed.

I never found the door to be a problem to be honest. On a summers day, it was nice to have the droplight down.

I agree the state some of them were allowed to get into was a shame. I have an eternal admiration with SWT because they seemed to look after their slammers to the end.

I still remember SWT compartments getting vandalised, but not to anything like the same extent. Both the south central and south eastern divisions had the combination of lightly loaded services running through dodgy areas like the Coastway routes. Though having said that even the Portsmouth Direct line has its moments!

 

[yorksrob]

I still remember SWT compartments getting vandalised, but not to anything like the same extent. Both the south central and south eastern divisions had the combination of lightly loaded services running through dodgy areas like the Coastway routes. Though having said that even the Portsmouth Direct line has its moments!

The stopper from Victoria to Ashford was always a nice leisurely VEP run. The last one I ever did, come to think of it.

 

[JonathanH]

Are you sure the CIGs ever had them? I didn't think they did.

No.

I did try to look at old threads to find information. There is discussion about internal door handles on Mark 2Ds being removed in 1971 after a fatality and, by inference, I assumed that this was the point at which the door handles were removed on other longer-distance stock. Clearly some CIGs were built at around the same time or a little later so would not have internal door handles by this measure. The internal plating of the door handle suggested to me that it had replaced an internal handle at some point but maybe that is just a design feature.

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed.

I never found the door to be a problem to be honest. On a summers day, it was nice to have the droplight down.

I agree the state some of them were allowed to get into was a shame. I have an eternal admiration with SWT because they seemed to look after their slammers to the end.

I agree with both points - tho I always favoured the picture window of a CIG for the view, with open top sections in summer

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with both points - tho I always favoured the picture window of a CIG for the view, with open top sections in summer

Yes, I do like a CIG.

The sliding ventilators were always far preferable to the hopper windows fitted to the refurbished CEP's. I never understood why they replaced them.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, I do like a CIG.

The sliding ventilators were always far preferable to the hopper windows fitted to the refurbished CEP's. I never understood why they replaced them.

agree. I suppose hoppers seemed more 'modern' (I thought that at the time) but lack of adjustment - either open or closed - was an obvious dis-benefit.
I wonder if they were easier to maintain? The sliding ventilators often seemed over stiff to me and presumably grime caused that over time - unsure if depot attention was, in theory, having to be given to keeping them properly sliding. In practice that is the sort of thing that I suspect would always be low on a depot's priority list when faced with a to do list and limited resources.

 

[yorksrob]

agree. I suppose hoppers seemed more 'modern' (I thought that at the time) but lack of adjustment - either open or closed - was an obvious dis-benefit.
I wonder if they were easier to maintain? The sliding ventilators often seemed over stiff to me and presumably grime caused that over time - unsure if depot attention was, in theory, having to be given to keeping them properly sliding. In practice that is the sort of thing that I suspect would always be low on a depot's priority list when faced with a to do list and limited resources.

Judging by the tendancy of hopper windows to fail in the open position, I'm not sure they're much more robust !

With sliding ventilators, I suppose it's also about someone having tome to go around with the WD40 !

 

[satisnek]

No, they never had Trojan. Only other units operating on outer suburban and mainline services that would have had it were Phase 1 CIGs and CEPs before refurbishment, and the HAPs.

Funny, but it seems quite a clear memory from my days as a young spotter at Woking. I can only assume that I must be mixing them up with the Phase 1 CIGs over on the Brighton line.

 

[yorksrob]

It wasn't unknown for units to be done out with the "wrong" moquette.

I once got a VEP with a purple version of NSE blue blaze.

I've also seen a picture of a HAP re-trimmed with LT bus moquette (that could have been a bit confusing after a few too many beers )

 

[JohnElliott]

I once got a VEP with a purple version of NSE blue blaze.

My recollection (possibly faulty) is that the first few times I saw blue blaze in a CIG or VEP it was the purple version, so perhaps it became available before the blue?

 

[yorksrob]

My recollection (possibly faulty) is that the first few times I saw blue blaze in a CIG or VEP it was the purple version, so perhaps it became available before the blue?

That's interesting ! The blue version had been ubiquitous for a few years before I came across the purple varient but maybe !

 

[Journeyman]

My recollection (possibly faulty) is that the first few times I saw blue blaze in a CIG or VEP it was the purple version, so perhaps it became available before the blue?

Wasn't the purple version mainly used in first class?

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn't the purple version mainly used in first class?

That was a different design with smaller zig-zags.

What I saw was basically the second class version in purple.

 

[Journeyman]

That was a different design with smaller zig-zags.

What I saw was basically the second class version in purple.

Oh, OK, I assumed the "small zig zag" version was what you meant. I've not seen the other one you mention. At least I don't think I have.

 

[JonathanH]

What I saw was basically the second class version in purple.

Blue Blaze 2 (the purple version) was fitted to units with low back seating - ie 313 / 315 / 455. I don't recall it being fitted to anything else and I think even some of those got Blue Blaze 1 at replacement covers were fitted.

As noted the version with smaller diagonal flecks was fitted in first class.

{Picture copied from https://www.mattypsrailwaypics.com/class-315.html}


[Picture shows interior of a class 315 with Blue Blaze II moquette}

 

[yorksrob]

Blue Blaze 2 (the purple version) was fitted to units with low back seating - ie 313 / 315 / 455. I don't recall it being fitted to anything else and I think even some of those got Blue Blaze 1 at replacement covers were fitted.

As noted the version with smaller diagonal flecks was fitted in first class.

Ah thanks, that's interesting.

It was definitely on a VEP when I saw it, but it was likely a one-off.