8 car trains stopping at 12 car platform position

dctraindriver

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It makes me chuckle that the health and safety bods claim such accurate stopping at stop boards is required when there can be at least 2 metres margin of error depending on the driver's perspective of the stop board (Driver's height/seat position/whether they're leaning forwards etc.)

At some stations 2m is going to make a huge difference in whether a door lines up for a wheelchair or the onboard DOO cameras give a safe view. I really can't believe that the stop board positions are so accurately placed to factor in all the possible perspective issues. If they were they'd need to at least get the tallest and shortest medically permissible drivers allowed to be involved in the testing when they were first signed off safe.
There’s a few places on our network that require nailing it at a specific stop mark due to all doors open otherwise the back doors are on the ramp so that accuracy is most definitely required. However it’s caught a few drivers out as one day they’re driving an ASDO stock then the next all doors open stock...
 
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Hadders

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Yes. At this station the staircase is maybe 50m from the north end of the platform. 12 car trains use the entire length of the platform as the 12 car stop board is at the extreme south end. The 8 car stop board is (quick maths!) about 80m from the southern end of the platform, so that the end of the train (back of the rear coach) should always line up with the northern end of the platform... if all that makes sense! So when an 8 coach train unexpectedly stops at the 12 car position, there is a ~30m walk from the staircase, or 80m walk from the north end of the platform, to board the first available (rear) coach. Yes, inconvenient for fit, healthy me - but potentially other people might not be able to board the train as a result.
If you're talking about class 700 trains then the position of the 8-car and 12-car stop boards isn't relevant, as they don't stop at these boards. What matters is whether there is are separate 'RLU' and 'FLU' boards or whether there is an 'ALL' boards because these are where the class 700 trains stop..

Forget the location of the stairs, it's not relevant, although I do admit it can be inconvenient for passengers.
 

choochoochoo

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There’s a few places on our network that require nailing it otherwise the back doors are on the ramp......
but at those stations i'd hazard a guess to say the markers are pretty much at the end of the platform or possibly even slightly beyond the end.
 

dctraindriver

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but at those stations i'd hazard a guess to say the markers are pretty much at the end of the platform or possibly even slightly beyond the end.
The asdo stop marks are a couple of meters before the 455 stop car marks... My point was about the accuracy being spot on. Best to put it on the mark, I don’t want to be overly worrying about stopping a meter to two short...
 

flitwickbeds

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If you're talking about class 700 trains then the position of the 8-car and 12-car stop boards isn't relevant, as they don't stop at these boards. What matters is whether there is are separate 'RLU' and 'FLU' boards or whether there is an 'ALL' boards because these are where the class 700 trains stop..

Forget the location of the stairs, it's not relevant, although I do admit it can be inconvenient for passengers.
Yes. Class 700 are the only trains that stop at this station. I never wander down to the South end of the platform to check whether they say 12, 8, FLU or RLU - but the 8-car train I caught today, and every other 8 car train I've ever caught from this station, stopped short of the front end of the platform and its rear lined up with the back end of the platform. So, regardless of what the signs actually say, shorter trains - unless every other driver is doing it wrong! - always stop in a different place to the longer trains.
 

Surreytraveller

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The short version is that an eight coach train stopping at the twelve coach board, whilst inconvenient, isn't a safety issue. A twelve coach train stopping short at the eight coach board, on the other hand, will be...doubly so if the doors are released.
It is a safety issue. It demonstrates that the driver isn't paying attention, or is unaware of the length of their train.
Although in this instance the driver has made an error on the side of safety, it indicates they are prone to making errors. The next error might be on the wrong side of safety.
 

choochoochoo

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The asdo stop marks are a couple of meters before the 455 stop car marks... My point was about the accuracy being spot on. Best to put it on the mark, I don’t want to be overly worrying about stopping a meter to two short...
but how do you get accuracy when human being perspective can be so variable and dependent on numerous factors.

On 700s you have to get the marker aligned with a point in the windscreen. Now depending who is in the seat, and where the seat is positioned and how they're sitting in the seat, the train could stop in about a 2m window of positions along the platform. Just saying that is a significant distance for those banging on about health and safety of passengers and efficacy of on-board DOO camera images.

It is a safety issue. It demonstrates that the driver isn't paying attention, or is unaware of the length of their train.
Although in this instance the driver has made an error on the side of safety, it indicates they are prone to making errors. The next error might be on the wrong side of safety.
whilst it is an error, would it even be a factor if on through platforms that weren't permissive every train stopped at the end of the platform.

I'd love to see statistics of how many slip/trips/falls passengers having to walk further on the platform/wheelchairs could not get on because the ramp didn't fit/signal couldn't be seen occurred before introduction of various stop car markers compared to the number of times a train has stopped at the wrong point since their introduction. I'm betting the latter is more common.
 
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whoosh

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There are some stations where an 8 car class 700 will stop at an 'ALL' board at the end of a platform, and an 8 car of other traction has an '8 car stop' board to stop at mid platform.
Conversely, there is also at least one station with an 'RLU' board to stop at mid platform, with the '8 car stop' board for other traction at the end.

Signal sighting, station lighting, dispatch method (in cab screens/bodyside cameras, CD/RA station staff dispatch, DOO mirrors), wheelchair ramp access with a ramp (clearance with bridges, lampposts, platform seating), will all be a factor.
Also which way bodyside cameras face can sometimes influence. They face back down the train on the left hand side on a 387, forwards on the right hand side. But it's the other way round on a 700 and 717. This can restrict or gain the view of passengers running for the train at an entrance at the end of a platform, and can affect where stop car markers are placed.


If a mistake was made by the driver in the OP's case, then I'm sure they'd be calling themselves names and thinking how lucky they were that it wasn't the other way round (12 car at an 8 car stop).
In this case, with all the doors on the platform - no harm done.


With regards to stopping accurately at stop car markers and worrying about the last set of doors not being on the platform ramp, I'd say that Tulse Hill is the most ridiculous I've ever seen: 8 car marker on the signal post itself (!) and the 'look back' method of dispatch (class 455).
When there were strikes about DOO extending on Southern, fear and resistance of extension of risks like this played a part.

700s have their own marker there and SDO 6½ cars with a much better view of the signal.
 
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dctraindriver

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but how do you get accuracy when human being perspective can be so variable and dependent on numerous factors.

On 700s you have to get the marker aligned with a point in the windscreen. Now depending who is in the seat, and where the seat is positioned and how they're sitting in the seat, the train could stop in about a 2m window of positions along the platform. Just saying that is a significant distance for those banging on about health and safety of passengers and efficacy of on-board DOO camera images.


whilst it is an error, would it even be a factor if on through platforms that weren't permissive every train stopped at the end of the platform.

I'd love to see statistics of how many slip/trips/falls passengers having to walk further on the platform/wheelchairs could not get on because the ramp didn't fit/signal couldn't be seen occurred before introduction of various stop car markers compared to the number of times a train has stopped at the wrong point since their introduction. I'm betting the latter is more common.
A 700 or 707 window is full width and the driving position is in the centre thus easier to gauge where to stop compared to a 458 or 450 with barn doors particularly if the platform is non drivers side. It’s a skill to master.
 

southern442

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I was at Slade Green station today on one of my first trips back out, where you only ever get 8-car 700s I believe, and the ones I saw stopped right at the very far end of the platform, quite a few people running as the entrance they used was quite far away from the back of the unit (the platforms being 12 cars long).
 

ComUtoR

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whilst it is an error, would it even be a factor if on through platforms that weren't permissive every train stopped at the end of the platform.

Remove permissive scenarios but let's add reversible ones.

There are stations, at least on my patch, that if you terminated and changed ends; your cab is potentially over the TPWS grids and also places that if you stopped short of your mark and changed ends your rear cab will be sitting on the magnet.

Let's now chuck in those stupid stop marks that sit right next to magnets. (London bridge for example) If you miss your mark by the smallest of margins you can end up on the magnet.

Or the ones near TPWS grids that have been placed prior to the signal and if you just slightly forward you can trip the grids if your signal is at red.

DOO places like Hayes are a nightmare for stop marks. If you miss or stop at the wrong ones you aren't aligned when you change ends. This also used to happen at Kentish Town before 700s came in.

Being in a brand new modern unit with body end cameras can be a godsend but there are still issues to overcome.

Maybe also worth mentioning that missing by +/- 1m may be acceptable but missing by 20-100m. Is probably noteworthy.
 

MissPWay

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That’s not correct.

Stopping short at an incorrect stop car mark is deemed to be an incident, even where the train is fully platformed. On the other hand stopping beyond the correct stop car mark isn’t seen as an issue (albeit bad practice).

Depends on your traction and the station in question.

... it indicates they are prone to making errors. The next error might be on the wrong side of safety.
Oh for God’s sake, this forum is so pathetic at times.....:rolleyes:
 

Ianno87

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Oh for God’s sake, this forum is so pathetic at times.....:rolleyes:

It's a very slippery slope from "oh it's just 1 metre, it doesn't matter" into a very lax safety culture without even realising it.
 

vikingdriver

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It's a very slippery slope from "oh it's just 1 metre, it doesn't matter" into a very lax safety culture without even realising it.

Over here on the Western, plenty of stations didn't have stop marks at all until quite recently and we all managed just fine!
 

Ianno87

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Over here on the Western, plenty of stations didn't have stop marks at all until quite recently and we all managed just fine!

Two major accidents with fatalities in 1997 and 1999 would suggest not "just fine". e.g. a train driven without working AWS, and a Thames Trains driver let onto the main line with a questionable level of training.
 

MissPWay

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Over here on the Western, plenty of stations didn't have stop marks at all until quite recently and we all managed just fine!
Until a few months ago the route I used to drive on in ye olde times had non-SDO 8 coach HST’s stopping at an SDO4 station with the back end on a bridge over a canal without any problems.

But sure, going further down a platform is a clause 9 offence.
 

Ianno87

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Until a few months ago the route I used to drive on in ye olde times had non-SDO 8 coach HST’s stopping at an SDO4 station with the back end on a bridge over a canal without any problems.

"Without any problems" could be "a problem just hasn't happened yet, due to sheer luck".
 

MissPWay

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Two major accidents with fatalities in 1997 and 1999 would suggest not "just fine". e.g. a train driven without working AWS, and a Thames Trains driver let onto the main line with a questionable level of training.

Are you seriously comparing overshooting an SDO board with Southall and Ladbroke Grove? Because if you are then I suggest you might need to give your head a bit of a wobble...

"Without any problems" could be "a problem just hasn't happened yet, due to sheer luck".

Yep, early 80’s to 2020 is just sheer luck.
 

Need2

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Stop marks for formation length should not exist.
An ‘all’ board stop mark is all that’s needed, this topic would never have been started.
Oh! I forgot, we can’t have something that simple that will stop any instance of a stop short immediately because the poor travelling public would have to walk a few metres more.
 

Surreytraveller

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Oh for God’s sake, this forum is so pathetic at times.....:rolleyes:
Its that attitude that gets people killed. Especially if things go unreported and don't get picked up
If you're going to quote a post, quote the whole post so that the context and reasoning is there, rather than to try and slag someone off
 
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vikingdriver

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Two major accidents with fatalities in 1997 and 1999 would suggest not "just fine". e.g. a train driven without working AWS, and a Thames Trains driver let onto the main line with a questionable level of training.

I guess it must have been "just fine" as the stop marks went up around 20 years after the events you mentioned despite them being in no way linked to not having stop marks at a load of minor stations.
 

Surreytraveller

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Are you seriously comparing overshooting an SDO board with Southall and Ladbroke Grove? Because if you are then I suggest you might need to give your head a bit of a wobble...



Yep, early 80’s to 2020 is just sheer luck.
If a driver kills some people after crashing their train, and at the Inquiry it is revealed they've had several minor incidents, but because those incidents were treated as minor no action was taken, do you think that is acceptable?
80s to 2000 wasn't bad luck, it was incompetent management of safety
 

Ianno87

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Are you seriously comparing overshooting an SDO board with Southall and Ladbroke Grove?

Yes, I am.

If a driver kills some people after crashing their train, and at the Inquiry it is revealed they've had several minor incidents, but because those incidents were treated as minor no action was taken, do you think that is acceptable?
80s to 2000 wasn't bad luck, it was incompetent management of safety
^^^^^^^
What he (or she) said.

Stop marks for formation length should not exist.
An ‘all’ board stop mark is all that’s needed, this topic would never have been started.
Oh! I forgot, we can’t have something that simple that will stop any instance of a stop short immediately because the poor travelling public would have to walk a few metres more.

Optimal positioning of stopping boards is also key in managing station dwell times; if trains stop excessively remotely from the canopy / staircase etc. then that impacts dwell times as passengers chase the train down the platform (then naturally all try and board through one door).
 

flitwickbeds

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Stop marks for formation length should not exist.
An ‘all’ board stop mark is all that’s needed, this topic would never have been started.
Oh! I forgot, we can’t have something that simple that will stop any instance of a stop short immediately because the poor travelling public would have to walk a few metres more.
But as this thread has proven, by people much more knowledgeable than me about such things, it's not only about passengers having to walk "a few" extra meters. On DOO, no platform staff Thameslink it might mean a passenger in a wheelchair cannot alight from the train as it doesn't line up with a Harrington Hump. On other DOO trains where platform cameras are displayed on platform monitors instead of onboard cameras displayed in the cab, it might mean the driver cannot see anyone stuck in the doors.
 

southern442

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Stop marks for formation length should not exist.
An ‘all’ board stop mark is all that’s needed, this topic would never have been started.
Oh! I forgot, we can’t have something that simple that will stop any instance of a stop short immediately because the poor travelling public would have to walk a few metres more.

I really don't think this is the right attitude to have. A 3 or 4-car train stopping at the end of a 12-car platform would be an incredible inconvenience at best, and for many passengers, particularly those with reduced mobility (of which there are far more than just a trivial amount), it could mean that they miss their train. Plus at many stations people might not realize the train is there at all. If you're one of the few who waits at the far end of every platform or if you are perhaps more athletic, you may take this for granted. And that's not even STARTING to cover the technical implications of this idea, but I see that flitwickbeds has also replied to this comment as I type, so I will leave that to them.

And with regards to this being a minor problem. Yes, if a 4-car train stopped at the 8-car stop board, in many places it wouldn't be a problem other than a little bit extra to walk for some passengers. However that's not to say that it's okay. Minor rule-breaking may not be directly a safety issue but allowing it to go unnoticed breeds a culture of cutting corners, and this is perhaps how we end up with more serious incidents like at Kirkby and Helensburgh recently (although I do not wish to speculate too much). Let us also not forget several corner-cutting procedures that were established practice has been blamed for historical events such as Quintinshill (but that is an extreme example).
 

bengley

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I can think of several places on routes I've signed where if you stop at the correct stop board, passengers have to chase the train down the platform, so the point is largely moot. Stop markers aren't really placed for passenger convenience these days it would seem.
 

southern442

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I can think of several places on routes I've signed where if you stop at the correct stop board, passengers have to chase the train down the platform, so the point is largely moot. Stop markers aren't really placed for passenger convenience these days it would seem.
There are several, yes, but I'd argue the vast majority are okay on this front. I wouldn't say it's moot if you had a 2-car GWR Cardiff service at the far end of Southampton Central, half the passengers would probably not even realise it was there! Likewise you have so many stations such as East Croydon, Peterborough, and Derby, with long platforms and many short trains. It would just be a nightmare.
 

Ianno87

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I can think of several places on routes I've signed where if you stop at the correct stop board, passengers have to chase the train down the platform, so the point is largely moot. Stop markers aren't really placed for passenger convenience these days it would seem.

It's reasonable to say that, in general, passenger convenience *is* the main consideration, unless there is some other over-riding reason not to prioritise this.
 

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