A Few Questions About My Advance Tickets To York

[34D]

I think we decided at some point that both the train on your itinerary and the train you wish to get must be unreservable.

Not sure who 'we' is or what qualifications those people possess, however your conclusion above is certainly not one of the alternatives that Q25 implies.

Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?
A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

If 'it' refers to the advance ticket and the suggested or booked service, then they can travel on an earlier train if the suggested service is non-reservable. No requirement for the earlier train to be reservable.

If 'it' refers to the earlier train, then if the proposed earlier train is non-reservable then the customer can travel on it (regardless of whether the booked/suggested connecting train is reservable or not).

This is of course only my opinion, based on this Q25 in isolation (which doesn't form part of the customers contract) in any case, I don't think.

 

[PompeyTony]

I hope I don't 'muddy' the waters here. All I can add is that I have a printed itinerary following my credit card booking with East Coast Trains. The first part of the journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo is shown as 07:45 from Portsmouth Harbour. It was off course linked to the discounted fares on offer and I believe the journey I'm thinking off taking (07:13) was offered at the same price. (I wavered because I was thinking of how my dear wife is not keen on early mornings!) However, during the reservation process a message came up for this leg stating 'reservations are not possible on this journey......'

 

[ainsworth74]

From the sounds of that you've definitely not been reserved onto a specific train for the Portsmouth - Waterloo leg of your journey so I would say that you can take any train to London (as long as you allow enough time to catch the train at Kings Cross which is officially 55 minutes from arrival at Waterloo to departure at Kings Cross). The train that you've been shown on the itinerary is simply the suggested train to take to Waterloo.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From the sounds of that you've definitely not been reserved onto a specific train for the Portsmouth - Waterloo leg of your journey so I would say that you can take any train to London (as long as you allow enough time to catch the train at Kings Cross which is officially 55 minutes from arrival at Waterloo to departure at Kings Cross). The train that you've been shown on the itinerary is simply the suggested train to take to Waterloo.

I was on my phone earlier and couldn't try this out, but having just played around on the computer I would confer. I have picked a random date and tried to book an advance ticket for the journey the OP has mentioned, and it is not giving any reservation details for the SWT leg of the journey. Which is completely different to any other advance ticket I have booked with SWT!

 

[island]

Going off topic slightly,

When we were talking about breaking an advanced purchase journey in London on the forum a few weeks ago, the consensus seemed to be that this was not permitted (even though it was nigh on unenforceable anyway).

If this manual is the definative source of advice on these matters, doesn't Q25 contradict that conclusion ?

No. You're free to take a valid earlier connection, but you are not allowed to break your journey by leaving the station, except under the usual rules. As you pointed out it is likely to be unenforceable, but we've had very interesting stories on this forum about people being charged up for doing things that are difficult to detect.

I hope I don't 'muddy' the waters here. All I can add is that I have a printed itinerary following my credit card booking with East Coast Trains. The first part of the journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo is shown as 07:45 from Portsmouth Harbour. It was off course linked to the discounted fares on offer and I believe the journey I'm thinking off taking (07:13) was offered at the same price. (I wavered because I was thinking of how my dear wife is not keen on early mornings!) However, during the reservation process a message came up for this leg stating 'reservations are not possible on this journey......'

The price is irrelevant. If one of your ticket coupons is a reservation marked "from Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo", you are only meant to use the train departing at the time given on that ticket coupon.

 

[yorksrob]

No. You're free to take a valid earlier connection, but you are not allowed to break your journey by leaving the station, except under the usual rules. As you pointed out it is likely to be unenforceable, but we've had very interesting stories on this forum about people being charged up for doing things that are difficult to detect.

But in this case, you can't avoid leaving the station, and Q25 infers that there's no "reasonable" timeframe within which you would be expected to get from one terminal to another. This seems to imply that you are free to do what you wish in the interim.

 

[island]

Which leads to all sorts of absurdities! If you walk from London Bridge to Euston (which you may), have you illegally broken your journey if you go into the Sainsburys or M&S on Bishopsgate? How about the Sainsbury's just outside Euston? The M&S attached to Euston? Will an RPI follow you?

 

[yorksrob]

Which leads to all sorts of absurdities! If you walk from London Bridge to Euston (which you may), have you illegally broken your journey if you go into the Sainsburys or M&S on Bishopsgate? How about the Sainsbury's just outside Euston? The M&S attached to Euston? Will an RPI follow you?

I've walked Charing Cross to Kings Cross/St Pancras a few times. I'll check behind my shoulder before I dive in to the pub next time

 

[yorkie]

If 'it' refers to the earlier train, then if the proposed earlier train is non-reservable then the customer can travel on it (regardless of whether the booked/suggested connecting train is reservable or not).

'it' does refer to the earlier train.

I think that there are some ambiguities, but in this particular case there is no doubt that the passenger can be assured that the answer is yes, the earlier train may be used.

As for the potential 'absurdities' regarding cross-London connections, it's been discussed before, but at the end of the day the connecting trains must be "appropriate". So yes, someone can probably 'get away with' popping into Sainsburys but they cannot spend all day shopping in London!

 

[dvboy]

In case anyone is wondering, here is an example.

Thanks, not seen that before.

 

[D6975]

'it' does refer to the earlier train.


As for the potential 'absurdities' regarding cross-London connections, it's been discussed before, but at the end of the day the connecting trains must be "appropriate". So yes, someone can probably 'get away with' popping into Sainsburys but they cannot spend all day shopping in London!

Some ticket booking websites allow you to increase the increment of changing train times, 'use recommended', '+30 minutes' etc, You can quite legitimately get itineraries that involve over 2 hours to get between 2 London terminus stations.

 

[bb21]

Some ticket booking websites allow you to increase the increment of changing train times, 'use recommended', '+30 minutes' etc, You can quite legitimately get itineraries that involve over 2 hours to get between 2 London terminus stations.

Of course, no one would realistically raise an eyebrow over a couple of hours, however yorkie's point is don't overdo it. It would be very hard for one to argue that a 0930 departure from, say, Basingstoke, is an appropriate connection for a 2100 departure from, say, Liverpool Street.

 

[D6975]

Just tried Reading - Peterborough with a +1 hour increment and got:

Reading 11:44
Pad 12:14
KGX 17:03
Pboro 17:49

advance single £17.50
How mad is that??
Kind of makes nonsense of the rules when you can get an itinerary like that. Not just the timings, but the low fare when you've leaving the Cross right in the peak.

Tried it with a +2 hour increment too and it just gets really silly - 10 hour plus journey times.

 

[island]

What's the route on that ticket?

 

[bb21]

Tried it with a +2 hour increment too and it just gets really silly - 10 hour plus journey times.

I guess my example above isn't so extreme after all.

 

[yorkie]

Just tried Reading - Peterborough with a +1 hour increment and got:

Reading 11:44
Pad 12:14
KGX 17:03
Pboro 17:49

advance single £17.50
How mad is that??
Kind of makes nonsense of the rules when you can get an itinerary like that. Not just the timings, but the low fare when you've leaving the Cross right in the peak.

Yes the timings are mad, but the fare is the correct fare. If you book London Kings Cross to Peterborough alone that's £9.75 when booked on the East Coast site on that exact same train, 1703 from KGX taking Monday 17 August as an example.