A few, simple questions about signals

[TSR :D]

1. Let's say the train was running along a double track railway line. The train is approaching a station with two platforms but signal before the station is red and the driver can clearly see there is no train in the platform and there is no train few miles after the station. There's no crossing points (or anything similar) anywhere nearby. The train scheduled to stop at this station.

Is the driver allowed to pass the red signal and stop at the station? Does he have to radio in and ask for permission? Does something this occur in real situations?

2. I was travelling on XC service into New St. The train was approaching into New St from east and I was sitting on a seat on the left side of the train in forward direction. I noticed the driver was passing the red signals on approach into New St not slowing down. I initially assumed the signals was for the trains on other tracks, however closer inspection, I noticed there was also an overhead line with signals on it. Is this what the driver would be using?

3. On approach into a multi platform rail stations, does the driver know the platform he would be arriving in advance? If so, what happens if there's a platform alternation?

4. At rail junctions, is there any indicators showing the driver which route it is currently set to? If so, what happens if the route is set wrong? Would there be enough time for the driver to stop before the junction?

 

[455driver]

1. Let's say the train was running along a double track railway line. The train is approaching a station with two platforms but signal before the station is red and the driver can clearly see there is no train in the platform and there is no train few miles after the station. There's no crossing points (or anything similar) anywhere nearby. The train scheduled to stop at this station.

Is the driver allowed to pass the red signal and stop at the station? Does he have to radio in and ask for permission? Does something this occur in real situations?

Absolutely not!
The only time it might be allowed is during severe disruption and with the signallers permission, but even then it is unlikely.

2. I was travelling on XC service into New St. The train was approaching into New St from east and I was sitting on a seat on the left side of the train in forward direction. I noticed the driver was passing the red signals on approach into New St not slowing down. I initially assumed the signals was for the trains on other tracks, however closer inspection, I noticed there was also an overhead line with signals on it. Is this what the driver would be using?

I dont know the location, some signals will not have an overlap track circuit and will go back to red as soon as the first wheel passes it. By the time you (sat in the train) see the signal it may have gone back to red.

Another situation is where the platform is occupied and the train will be called on using the shunt signal, 2 white lights at 45 degrees, in that case the main signal will remain at red.

3. On approach into a multi platform rail stations, does the driver know the platform he would be arriving in advance? If so, what happens if there's a platform alternation?

The driver might know which platform the train normally arrives in but wont know for sure until the signal before the station (or the one before that in some locations), if it isnt the platform the driver was expecting then the driver needs to know if the platform is long enough for the length of train they are driving (part of the drivers route knowledge).

4. At rail junctions, is there any indicators showing the driver which route it is currently set to? If so, what happens if the route is set wrong? Would there be enough time for the driver to stop before the junction?

Most high speed junctions have flashing aspects on approach, if the driver is expecting the main route and gets the flashers (or expecting the diverging junction but gets steady greens) then they will contact the signaller and slow down, stopping at the signal protecting the junction.

At lower speed junctions the driver will normally be able to stop the train at the protecting signal as they will be checked down (slowed) by the restrictive signals on approach.

 

[Tomnick]

In the first scenario, if the signal's being held at danger by a failure of some sort (as opposed to a train that happens to be beyond the station!), then the driver might indeed be given permission (by the signalman) to pass the signal at danger. He certainly shouldn't be asking for permission to do so though. If nothing's failed, then 455driver's response applies - authority to pass signals at danger isn't something taken lightly, and it's definitely not done for operational expedience!

 

[455driver]

I forgot about being talked past, I did it twice last week as well.

In my defence your honour, I was answering the 'get to the station' bit of the question rather than a general signal failure!

Being talked past a failed signal is quite routine and happens quite regularly.

 

[Tomnick]

I also thought I'd best not confuse the issue with the possibility of drivers talking themselves past signals (only at IBH signals and where the box is closed now, of course, and probably only on the first Tuesday of the month after the next amendments...!) .

 

[455driver]

If ever there was the need for a rule to be deleted that is it!

can you honestly see any driver passing one on their own authority now?

When they re-signalled the Basingstoke area (before the rules were changed so we could still pass an auto on our own authority at the time) every signal was plated as a controlled signal even if it was actually an auto, just so we couldnt pass it on our own authority!

 

[Tomnick]

Nope, I'll agree with you there...not a likely scenario nowadays!

 

[jnty]

I forgot about being talked past, I did it twice last week as well.

In my defence your honour, I was answering the 'get to the station' bit of the question rather than a general signal failure!

Being talked past a failed signal is quite routine and happens quite regularly.

Although if the train "wasn't slowing down" then I presume it wasn't being talked through, as I'm under the impression a train has to stop while it's being talked through?

 

[rdeez]

3. On approach into a multi platform rail stations, does the driver know the platform he would be arriving in advance? If so, what happens if there's a platform alternation??

I believe approaching New St from the East the last signal before the station has an indicator which displays the platform the train is being routed into - I've seen it from on-board displaying "5" and indeed, we arrived at platform 5.

 

[MarkyT]

If ever there was the need for a rule to be deleted that is it!

can you honestly see any driver passing one on their own authority now?

When they re-signalled the Basingstoke area (before the rules were changed so we could still pass an auto on our own authority at the time) every signal was plated as a controlled signal even if it was actually an auto, just so we couldnt pass it on our own authority!

That rule came from a time when the signal post telephone was the only means of communication. It could fail and there were no mobiles of any kind back then. Today the probability that neither cab radio nor signal landline nor drivers mobile work in any given instance is so small the rule might as well disappear, as it has effectively at Basingstoke. However, I know the entire south east was equipped many years ago, but I don't know if there are any areas remaining in more rural areas of UK not equipped with cab radios of any kind whether CSR or GSM-R. There is also the NRN system which I think has wider coverage.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is also the NRN system which I think has wider coverage.

I thought NRN was supposed to have ceased normal operations in the south (i.e. south of a line between the Severn and the Wash) from Dec 31 2012? (They were leaving it available for a short period for certain 'yellow plant' operators who worked both sides of the boundary or something.)

So where passenger trains in the south aren't using GSMR yet, it must be because CSR is still available as an alternative.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I believe approaching New St from the East the last signal before the station has an indicator which displays the platform the train is being routed into - I've seen it from on-board displaying "5" and indeed, we arrived at platform 5.

They are known as theatre indicators. Easiest one to see in central Birmingham is on the Snow Hill end of platform 2 at Birmingham Moor Street. It's right by the signal and will display a 1, 2 or 3 on it when the signal is showing a proceed aspect.

 

[455driver]

Although if the train "wasn't slowing down" then I presume it wasn't being talked through, as I'm under the impression a train has to stop while it's being talked through?

Yes you have to stop before being talked past a red signal.

 

[andy19_64]

I sometimes get people coming into the my office where i work claiming that the train that has just departed the platform and has gone through a red signal. I then have to take them back out onto the platform and explain to them that the train is empty of passengers and is shunting to the sidings or from one platform to another and then have to point out the shunt signals and route indicator to them and explain that when these light up white they pass the signal being held at red.

 

[rdeez]

They are known as theatre indicators. Easiest one to see in central Birmingham is on the Snow Hill end of platform 2 at Birmingham Moor Street. It's right by the signal and will display a 1, 2 or 3 on it when the signal is showing a proceed aspect.

Thanks for the additional info! How commonplace are these, in respect of displaying platform allocation?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thanks for the additional info! How commonplace are these, in respect of displaying platform allocation?

I think most, if not all, major termini have them. The ones at London Waterloo are very easy to see as long as you are on the left of the train as the line is on a curve at that point.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You can see them at lots of places at signals will either stop at or pass by at a low speed. They are as common in stations as they are out on the running line, often you will see them at big stations with multiple lines running into them and they will display things like S (slow) or U (up) or M (main) or one of numerous other letters which indicate to local names for lines.

I've literally spent two minutes on YouTube and found this:

Theatre indicator heading into Leeds station informing the driver which platform he will be arriving on. If you watch it for a couple of minutes you will see another indicator telling him which line he will be leaving on too. If you are the impatient type it is linked here.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for the additional info! How commonplace are these, in respect of displaying platform allocation?

Nearly every major station has them.

 

[G0ORC]

Yes you have to stop before being talked past a red signal.

ermmm... Very true, except under degraded signalling conditions (formerly known as ticket working) where a driver is stopped at a controlled signal, a semi-auto or auto signal turned manually to red and given a ticket authorising him/her to pass a number of signals irrespective of the aspect they are showing. If this is a planned operation, at night the signal number plates are often illuminated to aid viewing by the driver.

The ticket will show the signal at the end of the "degraded signalling" area and he/she will have to stop there and give up the ticket.

With regard to a driver passing a signal in his/her own authority it is a most unlikely scenario these days but occurred when I was on duty many years ago on the Coventry - Nuneaton line.

An intermediate signal box (I think it was Three Spires, but I may be wrong, it was a long time ago) closed, as it was supposed to do but due to a local power failure, its previously cleared signals (colour lights) changed to red. Along came the last Coventry - Nottingham service (it was a Sunday evening) which proceeded to stand at the red signal for two hours, while we struggled to find a movements supervisor, as they were all dealing with a major failure in the Water Orton area. All sorts of scenarios were possible of course - the train had failed, derailed, on-board staff ill, almost anything, but there was no communication from the train at all. Being the last service of the day, there wasn't even a train we could put in on the opposite line to look for it. We tried to man a unit up at Leicester to do this but there were no staff available.

It took us two hours to get the train moving - remember in those days NRN was in use, the signal was poor in lots of areas and although mobile phones were available, drivers were not allowed to use them on duty (the rule at the time).

The driver would not move an inch without a signaller's authority even though, in this case the rule book would have given him authority to do so. Even after he had ascertained that there was no-one in the signal box (by walking there), he still wouldn't move.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2. I was travelling on XC service into New St. The train was approaching into New St from east and I was sitting on a seat on the left side of the train in forward direction. I noticed the driver was passing the red signals on approach into New St not slowing down. I initially assumed the signals was for the trains on other tracks, however closer inspection, I noticed there was also an overhead line with signals on it. Is this what the driver would be using?

I'm pretty sure that all signals here are first wheel replacement, i.e. there is no overlap and the signal will revert to danger as soon as the first axle of the train hits the track circuit in advance. This track circuit starts within a couple of metres of the signal so the signal will change to red before someone travelling in the passenger accommodation saw it showing a proceed aspect.

 

[broadgage]

To add to the points made by others, it should be noted that signals are usually placed such that if the signal is at danger, that the train may enter the platform but not leave it.

It would be rare for a signal to be placed just before a platform, except of course at a terminus.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

That's not true at all!

 

[JB25]

Most stations have what you would call a Home signal (before entering the station) and a starter signal (to leave the station). No idea what broadgage is on about. hock:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Now that we've moved on to talk about signals at terminal stations, I remain puzzled by the signalling on the low numbered platforms at Kings Cross.
It's possible for a train to depart on a yellow from platforms 0, 1 or 2 for it then to be held at a red at the next signal (before Belle Isle crossovers) so that the rear of the train is still occupying the platform and also occupying the crossovers between those platforms.

I can't see why signallers would put a train in this position - but they do. No doubt it can also happen at other stations with complex junctions but elsewhere I see trains being held on the platform until their route is set and clear.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm unfamiliar with Kings Cross, but is that not just a headway thing? If the bobby can pinch five or ten minutes an hour by doing that then train planning can timetable one or two more trains an hour in and out of the station. I could be horribly wrong on this of course but it is the first assumption I would make.

 

[A-driver]

Now that we've moved on to talk about signals at terminal stations, I remain puzzled by the signalling on the low numbered platforms at Kings Cross.

It's possible for a train to depart on a yellow from platforms 0, 1 or 2 for it then to be held at a red at the next signal (before Belle Isle crossovers) so that the rear of the train is still occupying the platform and also occupying the crossovers between those platforms.



I can't see why signallers would put a train in this position - but they do. No doubt it can also happen at other stations with complex junctions but elsewhere I see trains being held on the platform until their route is set and clear.

It's very rare and only happens during disruption really. Out of kings cross the first signal (with the exception of platform 1 which has 2 signals if routed that way) is just inside gasworks tunnel. It is incredibly rare to be held at that signal. Normally if you leave on yellow it will clear before you reach it. I have only been held at those signals once in all my time signing kings cross and that was during disruption. The train infront was waiting for an up train to clear belle isle so it could cross onto the down road. More common is being held at the exit signal of gasworks which protects belle isle. That can happen to FCC a lot when they let an east coast overtake us there. But if stopped there you are certainly clear of any point work.

Why they do it? Well partly because the signals are automatic so once the signaller sets the route for the next departure and the platform staff have TRTS'd it the signal will clear when it can-if only to a yellow then so be it. The cynic in me would perhaps suggest that it allows a train to leave kings cross 'on time' but i don't know if there is actually any truth in that!

Rather than ask why a signaller would put a train in that position I'd ask why not? What harm does it do? To avoid that the signaller would have to delay clearing the signal at all which adds to their workload as it's easy to then forget to clear it later on I would assume.

 

[A-driver]

To add to the points made by others, it should be noted that signals are usually placed such that if the signal is at danger, that the train may enter the platform but not leave it.



It would be rare for a signal to be placed just before a platform, except of course at a terminus.

Exactly where does that snippet of information come from please as there isn't an ounce of truth to it! I can list numerous stations with signals prior to a platform or without a starter signal! Most stations ahead of a junction will have the signal at the end of the platform for operational convenience but with most straight forward platforms any starter signal is more coincidence than deliberate. I would say that with the routes I sign, excluding junction stations like Finsbury park, hitchin, Stevenage, peterbourgh etc it's about 50/50 split with those with or without signals on the end of the platform.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks, both.

As a passenger, I think I've only experienced being held there, half-in-platform, twice in my many years of travel between London and Newcastle, and only on the low-numbered platforms. It came to mind as one of those incidents was just before Christmas.

I guess my thought on "why not?" was that to do so holds the train in a position which leaves less operational flexibility :- dispatch staff and guard are still observing the train leave, access to or form the other platforms is blocked (though I accept that it would presumably also be blocked by the movement at Belle Isle), negligible journey time has elapsed.

Thanks again, I appreciate the insight!

The cynic in me would perhaps suggest that it allows a train to leave kings cross 'on time' but i don't know if there is actually any truth in that!

I'm sure that no one on here could possibly comment on that theory.

 

[A-driver]

1. Let's say the train was running along a double track railway line. The train is approaching a station with two platforms but signal before the station is red and the driver can clearly see there is no train in the platform and there is no train few miles after the station. There's no crossing points (or anything similar) anywhere nearby. The train scheduled to stop at this station.



Is the driver allowed to pass the red signal and stop at the station? Does he have to radio in and ask for permission? Does something this occur in real situations?



2. I was travelling on XC service into New St. The train was approaching into New St from east and I was sitting on a seat on the left side of the train in forward direction. I noticed the driver was passing the red signals on approach into New St not slowing down. I initially assumed the signals was for the trains on other tracks, however closer inspection, I noticed there was also an overhead line with signals on it. Is this what the driver would be using?



3. On approach into a multi platform rail stations, does the driver know the platform he would be arriving in advance? If so, what happens if there's a platform alternation?


4. At rail junctions, is there any indicators showing the driver which route it is currently set to? If so, what happens if the route is set wrong? Would there be enough time for the driver to stop before the junction?

I know most of these have been answered but just to add a few points...

1-driving past the red to enter the platform is a quick way of handing your notice in to your employer! Although I'd like to see someone try that excuse in a SPAD enquiry..."I was purely thinking of the customer and helping them get to the station quicker!"

2-I hilly doubt he was passing numerous red signals. At a guess the lines into BNS are bi directional or there are multiple approach lines. In that case I would say its likely you were viewing the signals for the adjacent line. Your line may have had signals on gantries above the train so out of view. Either that or as 455driver said, the signals were returning to danger straight away. Failing that you may have witnessed the train being signalled into an occupied platform so the red light had the cats eyes lit up next to it authorising it to be passed under caution. The train wouldn't need to stop first for that.

3-again, he may know where it normally goes if they have worked that same train before but as long as you can fit in the platform, it's electrified if needed and you get back out of that platform onto the correct route then you are able to take that route without question.

4-lower speed junctions will have a restrictive aspect approach so the train will be slowed on approach to give the driver time to check the routing (and to prevent lower speed points being taken too fast). Saying that though, the are a few high speed junctions which have no advanced warning as to the route setting. In that case the driver wouldn't be at fault if they ended up taking a wrong route as it's purely down to the controlling signaller.

 

[A-driver]

Thanks, both.



As a passenger, I think I've only experienced being held there, half-in-platform, twice in my many years of travel between London and Newcastle, and only on the low-numbered platforms.

I guess my thought on "why not?" was that to do so holds the train in a position which leaves less operational flexibility :- dispatch staff and guard are still observing the train leave, access to or form the other platforms is blocked (though I accept that it would presumably also be blocked by the movement at Belle Isle), negligible journey time has elapsed.



Thanks again, I appreciate the insight!







I'm sure that no one on here could possibly comment on that theory.

To be honest, when I leave kings cross on a yellow I generally get the train rolling then coast along at about 3mph. Generally that gives plenty of time for the signal to clear so you don't have to stop anyway.

 

[talltim]

I've seen several occasions at Sheffield where an late running southbound XC train has left platform 7 at the same time as an on time EMT train from platform 5. The EMT train then stops at the next signal, with the rear of the train in the platform to wait for the XC train clear the signal. I'm pretty certain that this is done so the EMT train has left on time (even if it is then late at Chesterfield) as it has only gained about a train length.