A real case for electrification of Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury line?

[Energy]

Yes, but not yet. There are a lot of other lines which should get priority for electrification, Chiltern/Snow Hill, full midland mainline...

 

[adrock1976]

I'd have thought the West Midlands devolved transport body would decide local electrification priorities in its area.
Diesels in New St and the approach tunnels are a factor in environmental planning, but there's a long way to go yet with XC and other diesel services.
Avanti will at least be using bi-modes from next year.
WMT and TfW may one day regret going for a diesel-only solution.

The route also suffers from a low line speed.
It's quite a few years (10+?) since 90mph instead of 70mph was planned, and a lot of route work was done plus resignalling (bar Shrewsbury).
But the line speed upgrade fell by the wayside, while TfW did manage to upgrade to 90mph from Shrewsbury towards Gobowen.

Regarding diesel only traction mores on the Chester/Cambrian routes, would TfW be amenable to having the trains curtailed to Wolverhampton (involves Platform 6 being properly sorted as it is only signalled for passenger use in one direction), being as there are several other trains to and from Birmingham New Street, International, and Coventry?

Also, thinking post-HS2, there could be a traditional InterCity Shrewsbury - London Euston every 60 minutes that could run in the present Chester/Cambrian path between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, with the LM/West Midlands Shrewsbury - Birmingham being curtailed at Wolverhampton until the line is electrified.

Both of the above would not have diesel trains at Birmingham New Street (Cross-country would have bimodes or dual voltage stock post-HS2 as the Voyagers will be getting to the stage of being withdrawn from service as they have been running since 2000-01).

To finish off on a side note, my prediction is that regarding the climate and environment, I can eventually see it being enforced in international law for diesel traction to be banned from stations that are enclosed or substantially enclosed, plus underground/subsurface stations too.

 

[The Planner]

TfW would likely say no, and sorting P6 at Wolves would be far from cheap.

 

[tomuk]

TfW would likely say no, and sorting P6 at Wolves would be far from cheap.

It wouldn't just be TfW saying no if you cutback the welsh services at Wolverhampton there would be an public outcry across Shropshire, Mid and North Wales.

Also for a bit if context

The Chase Line was electrified for over £110m (one figure mentioned closer to £200m).

The stations on the Chase line had in total 875 thousand passengers in 18/19

The stations on the SHR-WLV line had in total 4.8 million passengers in 18/19 (including Shrewsbury)

That's over four and a half times more passengers if the line had been electrified instead of the Chase Line.

There are nearly 2 million passengers using the telford stations alone (WLN OKN TFC)

 

[AndrewE]

Electrification hasn’t been looked at full stop.

In any event, conductor bar is not a solution for low clearance. It is a solution for low maintenance / high reliability.

My narrower "Limited-clearance/(slightly) reduced speed" pantograph is the answer to all these problems across the whole country. Forth Bridge? Southern/South Coast tunnels? Just do it.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It wouldn't just be TfW saying no if you cutback the welsh services at Wolverhampton there would be an public outcry across Shropshire, Mid and North Wales.

Also for a bit if context

The Chase Line was electrified for over £110m (one figure mentioned closer to £200m).

The stations on the Chase line had in total 875 thousand passengers in 18/19

The stations on the SHR-WLV line had in total 4.8 million passengers in 18/19 (including Shrewsbury)

That's over four and a half times more passengers if the line had been electrified instead of the Chase Line.

There are nearly 2 million passengers using the telford stations alone (WLN OKN TFC)

Yes, but the Chase Line electrification also enabled the removal of a lot of diesel operation under the wires beyond Walsall, at least as far as New Street. Walsall alone has around 1.5 million passengers per year.

 

[tomuk]

Yes, but the Chase Line electrification also enabled the removal of a lot of diesel operation under the wires beyond Walsall, at least as far as New Street. Walsall alone has around 1.5 million passengers per year.

It didn't remove a lot of diesel running. There was 1tph diesel New Street to Rugeley TV all other services to Walsall were electric. Shrewsbury to New Street was the same 1tph.

In theory it should now be 2tph Shrewsbury to New Street WMT. Plus the 2tpd London Euston and the hourly TfW if they were/weren't bimodes

 

[willgreen]

The stations on the Chase line had in total 875 thousand passengers in 18/19

An admittedly cursory glance at Wikipedia suggests that this is completely incorrect - do you have a source for this?

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but the Chase Line electrification also enabled the removal of a lot of diesel operation under the wires beyond Walsall, at least as far as New Street. Walsall alone has around 1.5 million passengers per year.

It always seemed an odd one to me to do though.

 

[tomuk]

An admittedly cursory glance at Wikipedia suggests that this is completely incorrect - do you have a source for this?

Office of road and Rail Estimates of Station Usage 2018-2019

Chase Line

NLC	TLC	Station Name	1819 Entries & Exits
1141	BLX	Bloxwich	49,186
1018	BWN	Bloxwich North	47,238
1017	LAW	Landywood	96,902
1016	CAO	Cannock	208,260
1148	HNF	Hednesford	173,906
1135	RGT	Rugeley Town	114,660
1084	RGL	Rugeley Trent Valley	183,008

Versus Shrewsbury Line

NLC	TLC	Station Name	1819 Entries & Exits
4387	SHR	Shrewsbury	2,226,302
4690	WLN	Wellington (Shropshire)	698,712
4689	OKN	Oakengates	73,438
4691	TFC	Telford Central	1,198,384
4619	SFN	Shifnal	187,162
4617	COS	Cosford	87,414
4614	ALB	Albrighton	101,548
4616	CSL	Codsall	125,222
4618	BBK	Bilbrook	133,688

 

[willgreen]

Office of road and Rail Estimates of Station Usage 2018-2019

Chase Line

NLC	TLC	Station Name	1819 Entries & Exits
1141	BLX	Bloxwich	49,186
1018	BWN	Bloxwich North	47,238
1017	LAW	Landywood	96,902
1016	CAO	Cannock	208,260
1148	HNF	Hednesford	173,906
1135	RGT	Rugeley Town	114,660
1084	RGL	Rugeley Trent Valley	183,008

Versus Shrewsbury Line

NLC	TLC	Station Name	1819 Entries & Exits
4387	SHR	Shrewsbury	2,226,302
4690	WLN	Wellington (Shropshire)	698,712
4689	OKN	Oakengates	73,438
4691	TFC	Telford Central	1,198,384
4619	SFN	Shifnal	187,162
4617	COS	Cosford	87,414
4614	ALB	Albrighton	101,548
4616	CSL	Codsall	125,222
4618	BBK	Bilbrook	133,688

You've missed off all the stations south of Bloxwich though!

 

[The Planner]

You've missed off all the stations south of Bloxwich though!

Everything south of Bloxwich already had an electric service though?

 

[willgreen]

Everything south of Bloxwich already had an electric service though?

That adds to the case - if a line is already partially electrified it makes far more sense to do the remaining bit as opposed to something like Shrewsbury, which poses a significant resignalling problem. And it's not like passengers on the already-electrified section didn't use the diesel services before electrification.

 

[The Planner]

That adds to the case - if a line is already partially electrified it makes far more sense to do the remaining bit as opposed to something like Shrewsbury, which poses a significant resignalling problem. And it's not like passengers on the already-electrified section didn't use the diesel services before electrification.

Shrewsbury will have to be resignalled at some point regardless of any electrification proposals.

 

[willgreen]

Shrewsbury will have to be resignalled at some point regardless of any electrification proposals.

I agree, but it makes electrification harder and explains why relatively simple 'easy wins' like the Chase Line are prioritised instead imo.

 

[tomuk]

I agree, but it makes electrification harder and explains why relatively simple 'easy wins' like the Chase Line are prioritised instead imo.

Was the Chase line a simple win? Over budget, with some suggestions of £200m, delayed by two years.

That adds to the case - if a line is already partially electrified it makes far more sense to do the remaining bit

Should I have included figures for the line between Wolverhampton and Birmingham. The diesel services stop at stations like Smethwick GB, Sandwell and Dudley and Dudley Port.

It is strange that Chase Line is seen as a simple win while others suggest that Shrewsbury Line services with over 4x usage should be curtailed at Wolverhampton because of 12 miles of diesels running under wires.

Of course re-signalling Shrewsbury is the elephant in the room. It has been on the cards for years. I recall one scheme probably 30 years ago where the 'power' box would be in the main station building off Platform 3 and Severn Bridge Junction SB would be demolished to allow for track rationalisation, cant have any custom diamond crossing in the layout.

 

[HSTEd]

Forgive me, but Shrewsbury does not appear to be an extraordinarily complex layout, is there a reason resignalling is constantly put off?

Is is simply the most complex semaphore layout remaining?

 

[Class360/1]

Forgive me, but Shrewsbury does not appear to be an extraordinarily complex layout, is there a reason resignalling is constantly put off?

Is is simply the most complex semaphore layout remaining?

Yes, and Network Rail said it would be uneconomical. I also think the signal box is a listed building

 

[willgreen]

Was the Chase line a simple win? Over budget, with some suggestions of £200m, delayed by two years.

Should I have included figures for the line between Wolverhampton and Birmingham. The diesel services stop at stations like Smethwick GB, Sandwell and Dudley and Dudley Port.

It is strange that Chase Line is seen as a simple win while others suggest that Shrewsbury Line services with over 4x usage should be curtailed at Wolverhampton because of 12 miles of diesels running under wires.

Of course re-signalling Shrewsbury is the elephant in the room. It has been on the cards for years. I recall one scheme probably 30 years ago where the 'power' box would be in the main station building off Platform 3 and Severn Bridge Junction SB would be demolished to allow for track rationalisation, cant have any custom diamond crossing in the layout.

The diesel services don't stop at all stations though, whereas, IIRC, Chase Line services do, providing I think half of the service? So only using stats for the northern bit of the line is disengenous (and you've assumed that all Shrewsbury's passengers are going to Wolves as well. I'm not sure the 'four times the passengers' claim is anywhere near accurate).
Look, I don't think the Chase Line makes the most sense if any line in the country needs to be electrified, but it's easier than doing Shrewsbury and gives a fairly equivalent result (although I did put 'easy wins' in quote marks - it's a term bandied around a lot and usually indicates the opposite, so I didn't mean that literally).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The diesel services don't stop at all stations though, whereas, IIRC, Chase Line services do, providing I think half of the service? So only using stats for the northern bit of the line is disengenous (and you've assumed that all Shrewsbury's passengers are going to Wolves as well. I'm not sure the 'four times the passengers' claim is anywhere near accurate).
Look, I don't think the Chase Line makes the most sense if any line in the country needs to be electrified, but it's easier than doing Shrewsbury and gives a fairly equivalent result (although I did put 'easy wins' in quote marks - it's a term bandied around a lot and usually indicates the opposite, so I didn't mean that literally).

Chase line services are fast between New Street and Tame Bridge. Wolves-Walsalls serve the likes of Hamstead etc.

 

[tomuk]

Yes, and Network Rail said it would be uneconomical. I also think the signal box is a listed building

The box was listed in 1991. At the time it was threatened with demolition as part of the then rationalisation/re-signalling plan.

The most recent thoughts by NR are to build out Platform 3 to the Down Main removing the platform loop and also building a Platform 8 facing the Up Main. There was also a plan to remove one of the avoiding lines on the triangle.

 

[willgreen]

Chase line services are fast between New Street and Tame Bridge. Wolves-Walsalls serve the likes of Hamstead etc.

Fair point, thanks for the correction.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, and Network Rail said it would be uneconomical. I also think the signal box is a listed building

The problem is that this approach just kicks the can further down the road.

Someone is going to have to do something about Shrewsbury sooner or later, and the way inflation in the railway industry seems to beat regular inflation, the soonert he better.

 

[tomuk]

The problem is that this approach just kicks the can further down the road.

Someone is going to have to do something about Shrewsbury sooner or later, and the way inflation in the railway industry seems to beat regular inflation, the soonert he better.

One thing that doesn't help is that the Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton Line is in a different NR region/route to the station and other lines. North West and Central / Central versus Wales & Western / Wales.

And in terms of signal boxes there would really be four to replace Severn Bridge Jn, Crewe Jn (almost as large as SBJ), Abbey Foregate and Sutton Bridge Jn.

 

[cle]

Shrewsbury clearly has some merit. It could run more electric metro (even another Wolves shuttle - tons of connections) - and maybe more London services. The Scotland extension put paid to an hourly.

But yes others into Wales would need bi-modes or remain diesel. Whereas Chase is self-contained. Yes WCML at Rugeley, but more on the map than in reality. Maybe after HS2 that island removal will be valuble.

Beyond Shrewsbury, it's a crap-shoot where to go next. Probably Wrexham and Chester (in conjunction with up to Halton).

 

[zwk500]

The problem is that this approach just kicks the can further down the road.

Someone is going to have to do something about Shrewsbury sooner or later, and the way inflation in the railway industry seems to beat regular inflation, the soonert he better.

I've heard that current standards for overlaps will be an issue, given the junctions can't be moved and are currently about as tight as physically possible. Is the stations building itself listed?

 

[The Planner]

I've heard that current standards for overlaps will be an issue, given the junctions can't be moved and are currently about as tight as physically possible. Is the stations building itself listed?

They could try for derogations, New St being a different case in point.

 

[zwk500]

They could try for derogations, New St being a different case in point.

Nothings impossible, but will require thought and energy to overcome them (time and cash).

I'm guessing similar problems will be present at Worcester as are at Shrewsbury, so I'd expect similar solutions to be workable.

 

[tomuk]

I've heard that current standards for overlaps will be an issue, given the junctions can't be moved and are currently about as tight as physically possible. Is the stations building itself listed?

They could try for derogations, New St being a different case in point.

The station building is listed it has been since 1969.
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1246546

Also the station has the majority of its platforms at the south end built spanning the river and Crewe Junction at the north end is above a major road junction on a bridge/tunnel/viaduct. Also not forgetting the Grade I listed Castle and Grade II listed Jail either side.

 

[adrock1976]

SNIP

The diesel services stop at stations like Smethwick GB, Sandwell and Dudley and Dudley Port.

It is strange that Chase Line is seen as a simple win while others suggest that Shrewsbury Line services with over 4x usage should be curtailed at Wolverhampton because of 12 miles of diesels running under wires.

First of all, during my time in the West Midlands, I have never, ever recalled any diesel trains calling at Dudley Port. It has since 1988 at least, only had the New Street - Wolverhampton local all stations calling there every 30 minutes (60 minutes on Sundays). However, that may change when Midland Metro uses the former South Staffs line that runs below.

Regarding Shrewsbury line, being as I was the first to suggest it in this thread, I was approaching this from the angle that should diesel engines for public transport be banned from enclosed stations and enshrined in international law, curtailing Shrewsbury services to Wolverhampton would be the only reasonable option, with other trains and also the London InterCity running to Shrewsbury every 60 minutes to compensate.

Alternatively, a mad suggestion for the Wales services would be for the (southbound) train to route into Oxley Depot with an electric loco coupling to it to haul the remainder of the journey to Birmingham. Rather difficult as there is not really any run round facilities at the Birmingham end, therefore more chances of Elvis being found alive and well having spend all those years hiding in the broom cupboard at Prestwick Airport.

Thinking about it further, smoking in the workplace and enclosed spaces was banned first in Scotland in 2006, with the next logical step for improving air quality would be banning diesel engines from enclosed spaces. After all, the use of white phosphor is banned and is enshrined in international law, with the only sovereign state to have used it in recent years was the Israeli Government back in 2010 when they attacked the Turkish aid ship Mavi Marmara on its way to the West Bank, contravening international law.

On a final note, it was in the news a few years ago that a young child's parents in London are (or already have) took the government to court as the child died from a respiratory infection (or something similar) a few years ago when the most likely cause was the child constantly breathing in the exhaust waste from the engines of the traffic that is using the North Circular Road. This did make me think that regarding the banning of diesel engines in enclosed spaces will eventually become enshrined in international law.