A Second Highland Cheiftain ?

[LE Greys]

Well, the Leeds idea suggests a triangluar diagram similar to the one that currently works my regular train home, the 14:50 from Aberdeen. Suggest Leeds (06:00) -> Inverness (13:00) -> London (22:00 or so) -> Leeds. A corresponding working would be Leeds (06:00) -> London (09:00) -> Inverness (18:00) -> Leeds. Thing is, that leaves you with three services rather than two. The alternatives would be two round trips from sets based at Bounds Green, or co-operation with Scotrail so that the first morning working from Edinburgh, the 08:34, could be used as a positioning move for a Craigentinny set to work south to King's Cross later (it arrives at 12:03, so 13:00 is possible) and eventually head back with an early Edinburgh train the next day (say the 06:00). Going the other way, the last Edinburgh train would come back on say an 08:00 to Inverness and return with the last day train, the 18:44. It requires Scotrail to sub-lease the set for part of the day, but might be helpful since they would still get a big cut of the settlement.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Why don't you just walk to Euston and get the sleeper? It's late at night I know, or you could change at Edinburgh, so it isn't too much of a problem don't forget.
If we could run an extra HST on the route, I think it would be worth trying it at the very least.

 

[Jock]

I find It interesting that some of you have mentioned something regarding ScotRail working the 'additional' HST north of Edinburgh.

Before the concept of lodging was brought in by GNER at Edinburgh, the current Highland Cheiftan was worked by inverness crews between Inverness and Perth, infact I'm almost certain I may have some former documents I kept, which I found of interest. confirming this in the loft along with other bits of junk!, unless mrs jock has chucked it all out (she keeps threatening too as she sees no relevance in keeping stuff now I'm a man of lesiure).

Its been done before, so it may be possible to do it again

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The difference between Scunthorpe and Inverness though is that Scunthorpe is well connected to the rest of the network, with a lot of "bigger" destinations requiring 1 change. While a direct London service from here would be nice, in reality, it's not needed

I agree - and there's no easy alternative such as an air service.

48 a day on the Highland Cheiftan

How fast could a Class 153 go if it was towed behind a Class 67? Because all the passengers would easily fit...

 

[David]

I agree - and there's no easy alternative such as an air service.

Are you from Scunthorpe or the surrounding area as well?

How fast could a Class 153 go if it was towed behind a Class 67? Because all the passengers would easily fit...

Erm, probably 5mph, as you would need an emergency coupler.

 

[tbtc]

Okay, a few assumptions...

• There are no spare paths on the HML and no chance for additional Edinburgh services (a bit of an assumption, true, but diverting Inverness - Glasgow services to Edinburgh is a zero sum game, and the long single track sections and freight on the HML make it hard to squeeze much more onto it).
  
• Using two spare HSTs just to give one additional long distance service to Inverness a day seems quite costly (when you think that two HSTs to XC would allow them to replace Voyagers on some duties and double up Voyagers on others).
  
• If there are 48 passengers a day from Inverness to London on the current Chieftain, which is pretty conveniently timed then a second daily service (which may not have such attractive timings) isn’t going to make a huge difference.
  
• There are those who don’t like bi-mode IEP (which would mean electric trains running under the wires, but with diesel engines underneath the carriages), so running (more) diesel HSTs hundreds of miles a day under the wires isn’t very attractive

So, how about an HST working two return journeys a day from Inverness to Edinburgh? The best working I can find would be:

• 06:47 ex Inverness (arrives at a business friendly 10:00, takes pressure off the 07:55 departure)
  
• 10:35 ex Edinburgh (the only service between 08:34 and 13:35, so the only service that leaves Edinburgh after the morning rush hour and gets to Inverness before 17:00)
  
• 15:50 ex Inverness (the only service between 12:46 and 18:53, so you need a big train to fill a big gap)
  
• 19:36 ex Edinburgh (the last train of the day)

Recovery time? You’d get thirty five mins between the 10:00 arrival and the 10:35 departure. You’d get over ninety minutes between the lunchtime arrival (14:13) and the 15:50 departure. You’d only have fourteen minutes between the 19:22 arrival and return journey at 19:36, which isn’t ideal, but you’d hope that this was okay at that time of the evening (?).

That’s the only way that one train could do a double trip each day. Assuming that these services are currently run by a 158+170 combination (?) then that’s a couple of DMUs that you could then put on other FSR lines (say strengthening the Inverness – Aberdeen service plus doubling up other HML trips?).

 

[sprinterguy]

Well, the Leeds idea suggests a triangluar diagram similar to the one that currently works my regular train home, the 14:50 from Aberdeen. Suggest Leeds (06:00) -> Inverness (13:00) -> London (22:00 or so) -> Leeds. A corresponding working would be Leeds (06:00) -> London (09:00) -> Inverness (18:00) -> Leeds. Thing is, that leaves you with three services rather than two. The alternatives would be two round trips from sets based at Bounds Green, or co-operation with Scotrail so that the first morning working from Edinburgh, the 08:34, could be used as a positioning move for a Craigentinny set to work south to King's Cross later (it arrives at 12:03, so 13:00 is possible) and eventually head back with an early Edinburgh train the next day (say the 06:00). Going the other way, the last Edinburgh train would come back on say an 08:00 to Inverness and return with the last day train, the 18:44. It requires Scotrail to sub-lease the set for part of the day, but might be helpful since they would still get a big cut of the settlement.

In my opinion, this arrangement pretty much perfects David's suggestion back on page 1. I think that a second London to Inverness service would be a good idea, ideally providing an early morning and a mid-afternoon departure from each end of the route. So the 07:00 Inverness to Kings Cross departure would be retained, with an additional departure for the Cross from the Highland capital in the 13:00 - 15:00 bracket as you have outlined. In the northbound direction, the current 12:00 departure would have to be rejigged to allow for perhaps an 09:00 departure to Inverness and a 14:00ish departure.

The 07:00 Inverness to KX and 14:00 KX to Inverness would continue to operate similar diagrams during the rest of the day as the current HST sets used on the Cheiftain do, while the 14:00ish Inverness to KX and 09:00 KX to Inverness services would consitute the diagrams that originate/finish at Leeds before/after their visit to London, although there would be no direct Leeds to Inverness service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, how about an HST working two return journeys a day from Inverness to Edinburgh? The best working I can find would be:

• 06:47 ex Inverness (arrives at a business friendly 10:00, takes pressure off the 07:55 departure)
  
• 10:35 ex Edinburgh (the only service between 08:34 and 13:35, so the only service that leaves Edinburgh after the morning rush hour and gets to Inverness before 17:00)
  
• 15:50 ex Inverness (the only service between 12:46 and 18:53, so you need a big train to fill a big gap)
  
• 19:36 ex Edinburgh (the last train of the day)

Recovery time? You’d get thirty five mins between the 10:00 arrival and the 10:35 departure. You’d get over ninety minutes between the lunchtime arrival (14:13) and the 15:50 departure. You’d only have fourteen minutes between the 19:22 arrival and return journey at 19:36, which isn’t ideal, but you’d hope that this was okay at that time of the evening (?).

That’s the only way that one train could do a double trip each day. Assuming that these services are currently run by a 158+170 combination (?) then that’s a couple of DMUs that you could then put on other FSR lines (say strengthening the Inverness – Aberdeen service plus doubling up other HML trips?).

If Scotrail were to sub lease an HST (Or if East Coast were inclined to operate a service solely within Scotland) then this to me appears to represent an excellent way to boost capacity on the Highland Main Line.

 

[paul1609]

Does anybody know when the London Euston to inverness day service was withdrawn? I seem to recall that it went via Birmingham New Street in the last few years?
I was thinking that if there is now sufficient demand again a 5 car voyager via the WCML would be a better bet than another ECML service, especially as when HS2 is complete this will be the main route to Scotland.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anybody know when the London Euston to inverness day service was withdrawn? I seem to recall that it went via Birmingham New Street in the last few years?

The Euston to Inverness "Clansman" was finally withdrawn in 1992, having been diverted to run via Edinburgh in 1987 which counted against it as it added 90 minutes onto the journey time. Although pre-1987 the fact that it served neither Glasgow nor Edinburgh can't have helped loadings to begin with. I can imagine that it's days were numbered ever since the introduction of the East Coast Inverness HST service in 1984.

 

[route:oxford]

A second Highland Chieftan would be good. A renewed "Clansman" between Inverness and Birmingham would be even better.

It would need a 7-Car tilting Voyager type unit though. Either running via a reversal at Waverley or Glasgow Queen Street (there is a suitable route/chord extant).

 

[tbtc]

A second Highland Chieftan would be good. A renewed "Clansman" between Inverness and Birmingham would be even better.

It would need a 7-Car tilting Voyager type unit though. Either running via a reversal at Waverley or Glasgow Queen Street (there is a suitable route/chord extant).

It would need a seven coach train?

When there aren't enough London - Inverness passengers to fill a single decker bus each day on the existing Chieftain (so presumably even fewer through passengers on a second service)?

A more pressing case could be made for Falkirk/ Stirling/ Perth having a second London service each day - it may not be as "romantic" as Inverness, but once the line to Dunblane is wired maybe there's scope for a couple of 225s to run to/from Stirling a day (via Falkirk).

 

[blackhill]

It would need a seven coach train?

When there aren't enough London - Inverness passengers to fill a single decker bus each day on the existing Chieftain (so presumably even fewer through passengers on a second service)?

A more pressing case could be made for Falkirk/ Stirling/ Perth having a second London service each day - it may not be as "romantic" as Inverness, but once the line to Dunblane is wired maybe there's scope for a couple of 225s to run to/from Stirling a day (via Falkirk).

Yes that would be a good idea. Thats what happend 1982-1984 before the hst was extended to Inverness.
Or another idea would be to diveret an ex Aberdeen hst service from Dundee via Perth to Stirling Falkirk ect before Edinburgh.

Or better still an new North East - South West service like the Devon Scot withdrawn in 1981.

 

[route:oxford]

It would need a seven coach train?

When there aren't enough London - Inverness passengers to fill a single decker bus each day on the existing Chieftain (so presumably even fewer through passengers on a second service)?

It would indeed if it were timed to arrive in Glasgow by or around 9am in the morning.

You do realise, that a Voyager tends to operate in a fixed formation don't you?

This means you have to consider the peak loadings of the journey rather than just protest that it is operating at 1/7th of seated capacity on the final mile.

If we are going to play with volumes of passengers, particularly for an Inverness to Birmingham service, it would be helpful if someone posted the sales volumes (for every day last year) of tickets to/from every station between Glasgow & Inverness to every station between Carlisle and Birmingham.

 

[Greenback]

I think that the number of through passengers between London and Inverness is a bit irrelevant. After all, the train does serve other stations in both Scotland and England!

It's even mor eirrelevant when talking about a through train between the Highlands and Birmingham via the WCML.

I must admit I quite like the idea of an additional service from the Highland Mainline to England (whether Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London!). However I can't see it happening under the present political set up and the present railway structure.

 

[bailey65]

I would opt for easy jet for a long haul like london to inverness a lot cheaper,quicker and better than sitting on a train for 9 hours plus.

 

[tbtc]

It would indeed if it were timed to arrive in Glasgow by or around 9am in the morning

So leaving Inverness around half five in the morning? Probably not going to be busy until Stirling I'd imagine

You do realise, that a Voyager tends to operate in a fixed formation don't you?

I also realise that a Voyager tends not to be seven coaches long

This means you have to consider the peak loadings of the journey rather than just protest that it is operating at 1/7th of seated capacity on the final mile.

...but running to Inverness isn't just a case of being fairly empty on "the final mile", maybe more than the final hundred miles?

Also there's the complication of your proposed service being the only train a day from Glasgow Queen Street to Birmingham, which probably won't attract as many passengers.

Better to concentrate resources on improving the length of existing HML services, sorry.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think that the number of through passengers between London and Inverness is a bit irrelevant. After all, the train does serve other stations in both Scotland and England!

It's even mor eirrelevant when talking about a through train between the Highlands and Birmingham via the WCML.

I must admit I quite like the idea of an additional service from the Highland Mainline to England (whether Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London!). However I can't see it happening under the present political set up and the present railway structure.

Yep, so what if it has 48 Inverness to London passengers if it also has 48 passengers from Inverness - Newcastle and York. Likewise Aviemore - London may have 60 passengers.

Central trains used that logic when killing off flows may people used. "no-one travels from Grimsby - Chester" - which really meant we don't care about the Shrewsbury - liecester or Nuneaton - Nottingham flows.