Abolish Railcards

[whhistle]

Or failing cutting fares wholesale, I would like to see ANOTHER railcard introduced for those that don't fall into the eligibility criteria of the current ones. You could make it a bit more expensive to buy than the existing ones available now, say at £50 a year to give the third off fares.

What's the point in that?
If everyone can get a railcard, may as well just get rid of them all.

Those people who rarely travel (and thus won't get your proposed railcard) will never choose rail as they'll feel penalised.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That completely misses the point of why the railcards have different conditions in the first place.

For example, the 16-25 railcard (which of course was once a 16-23 railcard) is designed to prevent short distance commuting being discounted during school / university terms but allow longer distance journeys to be discounted year round. This restriction isn't needed when schools / universities are on their summer break.

This particular restriction doesn't need to apply on other railcards.

And I raise you:

(1) for the Family & Friends Railcard (https://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/)

4.6. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel:

4.6.1. on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details; or

4.6.2. in First Class, except for upgrades to First Class at weekends (subject to availability) upon payment of the appropriate supplement.

(2) for the Two Together Railcard (https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/)

4.5. Discounted tickets are not valid for travel between 04:30 – 09:29 hours, Monday to Friday, except on Public Holidays.

As I understand it, both these cards are leisure products, so presumably the intention is that they should not be used on morning peak hour trains. Yet the same intention is implemented in different ways. There is room for harmonisation.

 

[ABB125]

Another complication with time restrictions on Railcards:
Imagine you (a family) are going on holiday by train to somewhere relatively far away from where you live. Suppose the hypothetical 0700 departure from your local station gets you to your destination at 1300, you then have maybe four/five usable hours at the destination before needing to buy food/go to your accommodation. This is plenty of time to, for example, visit a local museum or castle.
If you are restricted to off-peak times, which for your local station is 0930 onwards, and the next suitable departure to your destination is 1000, you will arrive at the destination at around 1600, leaving only an hour or two of useful time. This may mean that you need to stay another night at the place order to fully explore the area, which may mean the holiday becomes unaffordable.
Whilst I can understand some of the reasoning for off-peak restrictions, they shouldn't apply for long journeys. The problem is, where do you draw the line between short and long how do you stop people using longer tickets for shorter journeys?

 

[apk55]

The success of Aldi and Lidl in the supermarket sector shows what a what a simple straightforward pricing structure can achieve, with no loyalty cards, BOGOF offers or phony price cuts. Railcards might appeal to some users but they would probably use rail anyway. For an erratic and occasional user like myself the hassle of getting one and finding out what offers are available is very off putting and I would probable my car insead.

 

[JonathanH]

And I raise you:

(1) for the Family & Friends Railcard (https://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/)

(2) for the Two Together Railcard (https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/)

As I understand it, both these cards are leisure products, so presumably the intention is that they should not be used on morning peak hour trains. Yet the same intention is implemented in different ways. There is room for harmonisation.

There is a very clear difference though isn't there. Leaving aside that the Friends & Family Railcard isn't valid in the South East until off-peak tickets apply, elsewhere, if the Two Together Railcard was valid in the morning peak, two people could choose to commute together or go to a business meeting together at peak time using a Two Together Railcard. Indeed it could pay for itself in one trip. It is a bit less likely that someone would choose to take their child to work with them to reduce their train fares.

Moreover, the fact that children have to go to school also places a restriction on the use of a Friend & Family Railcard in a way that doesn't apply to the Two Together Railcard. Even if someone did arrange the place of education to match their workplace, that isn't commonplace and probably doesn't represent a significant extraction of revenue in the first place.

 

[markymark2000]

What is the point of a Railcard if I can't use it in peak times, ie the times when I'd be going to work?

I wouldn't mind abolishing rail cards, if all fares are reduced by 1/3. I can't drive due to my disability and rail travel can get very expensive

Personally I think this is a gimmick, and don't see why veterans deserve a Railcard anymore than nurses, teachers, people on the minimum wage etc

Fares will not decrease by 1/3rd if railcards cease to exist. The reason for this is that only a certain number of people have railcards and therefore only a select number get the discount. To add to that, people pay in upto £30 for the card to make up for some of the savings.
When you work this out, to be cost neutral, fares will probably only reduce by 1%.

 

[JonathanH]

Fares will not decrease by 1/3rd if railcards cease to exist. The reason for this is that only a certain number of people have railcards and therefore only a select number get the discount. To add to that, people pay in upto £30 for the card to make up for some of the savings.
When you work this out, to be cost neutral, fares will probably only reduce by 1%.

They wouldn't decrease at all. It might allow train operators to encourage custom at quiet times of the year through promotions or special fares and keep fares high at known times of high demand.

A blanket 33% reduction was implied as a Labour policy at the last election without a clear indication of what this would have entailed. Maybe they planned to abolish railcards and it got lost in the way it was announced.

 

[lachlan]

Fares will not decrease by 1/3rd if railcards cease to exist. The reason for this is that only a certain number of people have railcards and therefore only a select number get the discount. To add to that, people pay in upto £30 for the card to make up for some of the savings.
When you work this out, to be cost neutral, fares will probably only reduce by 1%.

You're implying that railways can't be subsidised more, which can and should happen.

 

[JonathanH]

You're implying that railways can't be subsidised more, which can and should happen.

If there is to be more subsidy it should go towards enhancements not a fares giveaway (unless you can find a way of only stimulating really off-peak demand).

 

[jon0844]

And yet my Dad gets one because he's partially deaf in one ear and uses a hearing aid (it's this that gives rise to the entitlement). While he's also entitled to a Senior Railcard anyway so it barely makes any difference other than the companion aspect, it seems to me that this is such a minor disability that it probably shouldn't be entitling to one. Arguably, to me, the criteria should be the same as a Blue Badge (for ENCTS too, I'm afraid).

Haven't they recently made it a lot easier to get a blue badge too? Fine until you realise they're not rolling out loads of new parking spaces, and blue badge misuse is huge so now you'll have even more people fighting for fewer spaces.

(off topic; blue badge misuse is easier now as we all talk about 'hidden disabilities', which is very much a real thing, but it enables people to take the mick by using the blue badge for someone else and being able to use that as a defence).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there not photographs on blue badges?

 

[markymark2000]

You're implying that railways can't be subsidised more, which can and should happen.

I don't think you understand supply and demand. The railway used the high fares to reduce the demand to bring it more in line with supply (hence why peak fares are so high, to put people off).
Lower fares make more demand and that then makes your trains more overcrowded and you then get more complaints about it and any small issue spirals out of control a lot quicker and has a bigger impact.

as JonathanH says, any investment should be going into the improvements and not the fares side. If we had a perfect railway system with loads of free capacity and we had loads of empty trains all day, yes fares need to be looked at but when parts of the railway are at breaking point in terms of overcrowding and track capacity, there are bigger things we need to look at than fares!

 

[transmanche]

Haven't they recently made it a lot easier to get a blue badge too?

If by 'made it a lot easier' you mean they 'extended the range of disabilities which qualify' then, yes.

But suggesting that it's now 'easier' to qualify for a blue badge is quite insulting to those badge holders that now qualify, but didn't before. There's a strong implication that they're 'not disabled enough'.

(off topic; blue badge misuse is easier now as we all talk about 'hidden disabilities', which is very much a real thing, but it enables people to take the mick by using the blue badge for someone else and being able to use that as a defence).

Which is why the government said they were going to launch a task force to help councils tackle fraudulent use of blue badges.

 

[Llanigraham]

Haven't they recently made it a lot easier to get a blue badge too? Fine until you realise they're not rolling out loads of new parking spaces, and blue badge misuse is huge so now you'll have even more people fighting for fewer spaces.

(off topic; blue badge misuse is easier now as we all talk about 'hidden disabilities', which is very much a real thing, but it enables people to take the mick by using the blue badge for someone else and being able to use that as a defence).

No, it is now much more difficult to get a Blue Card now.
And prosecutions for misuse have increased.

 

[transmanche]

Are there not photographs on blue badges?

No. And photographs would be of limited use, being that the holder is generally not present when the badge is in use...

Image shows a person holding a 'Blue Badge' inserted into a cardboard 'parking timer clock'.

 

[BigCj34]

What's the point in that?
If everyone can get a railcard, may as well just get rid of them all.

Those people who rarely travel (and thus won't get your proposed railcard) will never choose rail as they'll feel penalised.

Visitors or occasional users will pay more, the regular users get a discount. In terms of sum it is quite possible an open age railcard would be cost neutral, as initial outlay and increased usage would nullify revenue loss from a discount. But is this going to leave the railway bursting at the seams?

 

[HSTEd]

But is this going to leave the railway bursting at the seams?

Does it matter if the railway is bursting at the seems?

Bursting at the seams is the only way we are going to generate the political will to spend more on improving provision.

 

[BigCj34]

Does it matter if the railway is bursting at the seems?

Bursting at the seams is the only way we are going to generate the political will to spend more on improving provision.

Well I'm not personally bothered with more people switching modes to it, but there is a lot of emphasis on demand management here. Though it is highly unlikely any new railcard would make peak travel cheaper anyway.

 

[jon0844]

No. And photographs would be of limited use, being that the holder is generally not present when the badge is in use...

Image shows a person holding a 'Blue Badge' inserted into a cardboard 'parking timer clock'.

Is the photo not still on the reverse? (will try and remember to check when I see my mum next).

While I know people could be embarrassed if asked to prove the card is theirs, the problem now is that people will borrow a card and if questioned use the 'hidden disability' line that you can't argue with even if they're sniggering and not disabled at all.

The downside is that people like my mum increasingly find it difficult to park. If the Government intends to give powers to do checks, I'm all for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I know people could be embarrassed if asked to prove the card is theirs

Er, why? Are the same people embarrassed to show their season ticket photocard if commuting by train? They are extended a concession that is not for giving away, no harm in having to prove they are entitled to it by a quick and simple photo check if challenged directly.

 

[jon0844]

Er, why? Are the same people embarrassed to show their season ticket photocard if commuting by train? They are extended a concession that is not for giving away, no harm in having to prove they are entitled to it by a quick and simple photo check if challenged directly.

I agree, but that's where we are. Some people think it takes away their dignity, even though not showing the photo makes fraud so simple.

Anyway, this is still off topic.

 

[transmanche]

Er, why? Are the same people embarrassed to show their season ticket photocard if commuting by train?

It depends on who's asking. It's one thing if asked by a council official. It's another thing if challenged by some random person in a supermarket car park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on who's asking. It's one thing if asked by a council official. It's another thing if challenged by some random person in a supermarket car park.

To whom the answer ends in "off", just like if a random member of the public challenges you about anything else they aren't entitled to do.

 

[yorksrob]

What's the point in that?
If everyone can get a railcard, may as well just get rid of them all.

Those people who rarely travel (and thus won't get your proposed railcard) will never choose rail as they'll feel penalised.

The same reason shops provide loyalty cards and airlines provide air miles. People who already use the train are more likely to be encouraged to undertake discretionary travel if they think its a bargain.

 

[sprunt]

To whom the answer ends in "off", just like if a random member of the public challenges you about anything else they aren't entitled to do.

In principle, yes, but you have mentioned on here (in the context of leg room) that you're quite a big person - others might feel less confident when some ignorant fool is harassing them about their disability.

 

[PeterC]

No. And photographs would be of limited use, being that the holder is generally not present when the badge is in use...

Image shows a person holding a 'Blue Badge' inserted into a cardboard 'parking timer clock'.

The photo isn't on the side that is displayed. The problem comes when the holder isn't the driver. I have heard of a Civil Enforcement Officer trying to ticket a carer who had just helped the card holder into their destination and was returning to move the vehicle.

I always used to be worried when my late mother would walk the length of the High Street then decide that she couldn't manage the walk back resulting in a healthy middle aged man running back to a vehicle showing a blue badge. Luckily I was never challenged.

 

[GusB]

I wonder if the blue badge discussion perhaps warrants a thread of its own.

My late father had a stroke back in 2018, and his mobility was impaired as a result, but he didn't see the need to apply for one until he was diagnosed with cancer early last year and had to attend chemo sessions at Raigmore Hospital in Inverness. (A parking nightmare even with a blue badge!)

The application form was far more complicated than the one he had to fill out for Attendance Allowance, and took several months to process. It was only by contacting one of the local councillors that butts were kicked and the badge was eventually issued.

I regularly received evil looks from people when I parked in a disabled space when I went to pick him up after treatment. I was perfectly entitled to use the space as long as I was collecting him from hospital, and the **** off response was used frequently.

I have a friend who has a hidden disability and has recently received a blue badge. She also regularly has to deal with people questioning her legitimacy to park in the appropriate spaces.

TL;DR - it's really none of your business to question who parks where. If the person parking has the relevant permission and the person doing the questioning has the relevant authority, fair enough. The general public can sod off.

 

[hooverboy]

In an ideal world this would happen! I'd increase the subsidy from government, sure it would mean more tax payers money going towards people who use trains but it is supposed to be public transport after all!

Or failing cutting fares wholesale, I would like to see ANOTHER railcard introduced for those that don't fall into the eligibility criteria of the current ones. You could make it a bit more expensive to buy than the existing ones available now, say at £50 a year to give the third off fares.

..or you could have something like the bahncard system in germany.
they have 3 tiers :
25% discount off peak only (€62)
50% discount off peak only (€255)
100% anytime travel( €3952)

I think something like £200 per year for a national railcard with 1/3 discount (with DECENT off peak/time restrictions..ie after 9am travel) would probably be acceptable. Maybe £500 per year for the non-time restricted version.
I would be very,very interested in such a product.

I think also an expansion of "network railcard" type regional cards would also be a good idea.£30 p.a for these is quite OK, but they really should come up with a national standard for "off peak" hours,so everybody knows when and when not travel is valid.
a flat 9am/9.30am time for everything eliminates all the confusion

At the moment it could be 8.45am in the case of some anglia routes,to 10am in the case of network railcard purchase(or 9.30am off peak on exactly the same route with an off peak ticket)

 

[Bletchleyite]

..or you could have something like the bahncard system in germany.
they have 3 tiers :
25% discount off peak only (€62)
50% discount off peak only (€255)
100% anytime travel( €3952)

DB Bahncards are not "off peak only" - they do not have such a concept at all. All walk-up fares are "Anytime" - "Flexpreis" (though the price can vary by day of the week I believe, and commensurate with that it's singles only, no returns), smoothing of this is done by "Sparpreis" tickets which are the same as Advances.

 

[hooverboy]

The challenge is working out what price a 'railcard for all' should be available at. Given that trains are busy right now, you don't want to attract too many people in that there's not the capacity to move them. But politically/PR-wise you can't price it too high, else it's seen as just another way to rook the punters.

the sweet spot is just expensive enough to make you travel more by train than you otherwise would, but cheap enough to see the cost incentive for using it a couple of times.

for the network railcard it's a no brainer.
For someone in brighton travelling to london(or vice versa), the the payback period is only 5 return trips. Easily done in a year.
That same person will then use the ticket for days out/leisure activities quite a bit more frequently too,which increases revenue for the railway.

on a national card scale the cost should probably be something similar ie 5 return trips london to manchester.cheapest advance tickets about £45rtn so £225 a year(£200 sounds nicer for marketing!)