Accessing personal mobile phone records

[Bunsenburner]

Just wondering whether tocs/focs have a right to ask for your personal mobile phone records. I know of a few tocs that have demanded them to decide wether an individual has been using his personal phone in the driving cab. Can they do this by law and what are the repercussions If you refuse, if any?

 

[Carntyne]

TOC/FOC may not but I would assume the RAIB/BTP could request it after an incident for example as part of an investigation? Someone who knows more may be able to clarify though.

 

[fabs]

The employee has the right to refuse to provide mobile phone records. However, if an allegation is serious enough and there is sufficient evidence for a case to answer the case can be reported to the BTP or ORR, who can gather the evidence forensically.
If the alleged event is serious enough and proven through a court the remifications could be more severe. For example using a mobile while driving a train, if it goes to court would more than likely result in a custodial sentence. Where if the same charge is heard at a company level although the burden of proof is different, the ramifications would be slightly less severe.
I would advise anyone who's management requests sight of records to provide them, redacted if required for privacy, in order to prove innocence.
If I GENUINELY suspected an employee of inappropriately using thier mobile device while carrying out SC duties and they didn't cooperate during an investigation process, I would report it to the ORR.

 

[Iskra]

Is it in your contract that they can?

 

[rf_ioliver]

Just wondering whether tocs/focs have a right to ask for your personal mobile phone records. I know of a few tocs that have demanded them to decide wether an individual has been using his personal phone in the driving cab. Can they do this by law and what are the repercussions If you refuse, if any?

No - at least not without a court order.

t.

Ian

 

[ComUtoR]

Just wondering whether tocs/focs have a right to ask for your personal mobile phone records

Ours is contractual. They can, and have on many occasions, requested Drivers phone records. The best you can do is redact it.

During the incident investigation they always ask if they requested it, would you provide it. Feel free to say no. Its basically an admission of guilt and not looked favourably on. I've never known anyone to refuse and we have lost 2 Drivers (that I know of) for being on their mobiles.

I think the important thing is that they will only really request it if there is an accusation or an incident. The former is almost difficult to prove and the latter means your already in hot water and at the risk of job loss.

Why refuse ?

 

[swj99]

Out of interest, what records would exist in the case of someone who only has a prepay mobile ? The only paperwork as such that exists with my prepay is the shop receipt if I purchase credit.

 

[causton]

Out of interest, what records would exist in the case of someone who only has a prepay mobile ? The only paperwork as such that exists with my prepay is the shop receipt if I purchase credit.

The mobile phone operator has to, on payment of a £10 fee, give you all the data they hold about you. Same as any other company holding your personal data.

A quick Google as an example:

Lists of calls and SMS / MMS made to and from your Vodafone Mobile Phone
You will be able to request lists of calls and texts made from your mobile phones.
We store detailed records of incoming calls, texts and other messages for a 12 month period
only.
We cannot provide you with details of incoming calls or messages older than 12 months.
We will not provide details relating to incoming calls, unless we have a Court Order. This is to
protect the privacy of the individual who made the call. Please see section at the end about
Court Orders if you need incoming call information.
 List of incoming SMS / MMS to your mobile phone.
Vodafone can provide you with a list of your incoming SMS / MMS for the previous 12 months
only.


 If you have been charged with a Driving Offence involving a mobile phone.
If you have been charged with a driving offence related to mobile telephone use, to assist you
in court Vodafone will provide you with your list of:
 Incoming calls without any originating numbers;
 Incoming SMS and MMS-es; and
 Outgoing calls, SMS and MMS-es.
Proof that you have been charged by the Police must be provided with your SAR. Vodafone will
only have the preceding 12 month of incoming call, SMS and MMS data.

http://www.vodafone.co.uk/cs/groups/configfiles/documents/contentdocuments/vftst042750.pdf

 

[Economist]

For example using a mobile while driving a train, if it goes to court would more than likely result in a custodial sentence.

In Mick Whelan's interview with The Guardian he mentioned this, though it was in the context of a DOO incident. Given all the radio systems in the cab these days, I'd have thought that mobiles were to be left in a locker at the depot, unless the mobile is issued by the company.

 

[fabs]

Pay monthly or prepay users can submit a subject access request (SAR) to their provider. They have call/data log information. (Sorry already answered).
As a manager I've no problem with crew having their mobile in their bag. If it somehow turns itself on and rings (not unknown) please don't answer it! The ringtone will cause a very slight distraction no doubt but that's very temporary.
It's using the device for call/text/Facebook etc that's what will get you disciplined or worse, jailed. I personally think as it's a criminal offence TOCs shouldn't be investigating allegations of mobile use while driving, they should be passed on to the BTP/ORR.
I didn't read that Mr Whalen article you mention but if it's the current court case, he is not being tried for phone use (that's separate and already dealt with).

 

[Louby]

Keep it off , simples

 

[swj99]

The mobile phone operator has to, on payment of a £10 fee, give you all the data they hold about you. Same as any other company holding your personal data.

A quick Google as an example:



http://www.vodafone.co.uk/cs/groups/configfiles/documents/contentdocuments/vftst042750.pdf

Thanks, that's handy to know. I didn't realize it was that easy.

 

[Llanigraham]

No - at least not without a court order.

Ian

If it is the person's Contract of Employment then that would not apply.

 

[Llanigraham]

Out of interest, what records would exist in the case of someone who only has a prepay mobile ? The only paperwork as such that exists with my prepay is the shop receipt if I purchase credit.

The service provider would have the records of all activity for that number, no matter what contract is held.

 

[GB]

deleted

 

[Spikeylado]

Whats the rule for Conductors are they allowed their phones?

 

[GB]

For example using a mobile while driving a train, if it goes to court would more than likely result in a custodial sentence.

What would be the charge though because as far as I am aware the act of using a mobile phone while train driving isn't actually illegal like it is for road vehicles.

It was only brought in as a policy by the rssb following the Chatworth crash in LA in 2008 and only then as more of a "best practice" type thing. Has it since been ratified in law?

 

[Flying_Turtle]

well.. and how does that work for whatsapp / skype / messenger?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The service provider would have the records of all activity for that number, no matter what contract is held.

how exactly do you prove a prepay phone that has been topped up using cash only is in the control of an individual ?

 

[Llanigraham]

how exactly do you prove a prepay phone that has been topped up using cash only is in the control of an individual ?

If a railway worker (this applies not just to drivers) has a phone in their possession then the number of that phone can be obtained and the records for that number can be obtained very easily. It does not matter how it was topped up.
From experience, the phone will be confiscated after an incident and the supplier will be asked to provide details of all actions that have occurred with that phone within a certain period.
This is exactly the same as Police sometimes do after a road incident if they think a phone might have been involved.

 

[theageofthetra]

well.. and how does that work for whatsapp / skype / messenger?

A very good point. None of this has anything to do with a network provider.

I believe another issue is the time that an SMS is sent isn't always the time it appears on a bill- I'm sure due to the VAT element it can't be charged (even if inclusive) until it has been received the other end. I have vague recollections of a significant financial loss in a bank I used to work at where the time a client sent an SMS wasn't the same as on the providers records. Would appreciate clarification on this from any telecoms experts

 

[Sunset route]

well.. and how does that work for whatsapp / skype / messenger?

When I did jury service all of the whatsapp transcripts were printed off with the timeline for us to read.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

If a railway worker (this applies not just to drivers) has a phone in their possession then the number of that phone can be obtained and the records for that number can be obtained very easily. It does not matter how it was topped up.
From experience, the phone will be confiscated after an incident and the supplier will be asked to provide details of all actions that have occurred with that phone within a certain period.
This is exactly the same as Police sometimes do after a road incident if they think a phone might have been involved.

Assumes that BTP attend at the time doesn't it.

Or do all Managers have the power to seize private propertry and the necessary training and access to appropriate storage to maintain the chain of continuity of evidence ...

 

[GB]

Since when did managers have the power to confiscate or seize personal property in such a way?

Edit: To get phone records you need to know the number. I am under no obligation to hand out my personal number to anyone, the phone companies will not give out personal data without a court order as it would otherwise breach the data protection act. They certainly wouldn't hand out such information to company managers.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Since when did managers have the power to confiscate or seize personal property in such a way?

Edit: To get phone records you need to know the number. I am under no obligation to hand out my personal number to anyone, the phone companies will not give out personal data without a court order as it would otherwise breach the data protection act. They certainly wouldn't hand out such information to company managers.

exactly the only way the topped up in cash PAYG mobile could be linked to the individual is if it is found and seized in a legitimate search by a suitably authorised person.

and that suitably authorised person is a Holder of the Office of Constable.

I have worked for a technology company in a warehouse that holds millions of pounds worth of phones ... Company managers and the SIA badged security have very limited powers of search ( basically stand and watch and ask you to do things / walk through the magnetometer arches / 'wand' you ) and the company policy basically says if we suspect you have been stealing we will try and detain you on site until the Police come

 

[Llanigraham]

Assumes that BTP attend at the time doesn't it.

No. As long aqs the time of the incident is known then phone records can be request for any time at or around that time.

Or do all Managers have the power to seize private propertry and the necessary training and access to appropriate storage to maintain the chain of continuity of evidence ...

Certainly in the signalling world yes they can seize private property and it has been done. I suspect the same in other spheres.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly in the signalling world yes they can seize private property and it has been done. I suspect the same in other spheres.

Under what law? Is it in RoRA or something


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Llanigraham]

Since when did managers have the power to confiscate or seize personal property in such a way?

Edit: To get phone records you need to know the number. I am under no obligation to hand out my personal number to anyone, the phone companies will not give out personal data without a court order as it would otherwise breach the data protection act. They certainly wouldn't hand out such information to company managers.

If it is in your Contract of Employment then they can indeed do so.

I suggest you read the Data Protection Act. If there is the suspicion of a crime having been committed then data can be released. One of the reasons people are often arrested on a "holding charge" first.

I know this has been done in the last 5 years to a railway employee.

 

[Llanigraham]

exactly the only way the topped up in cash PAYG mobile could be linked to the individual is if it is found and seized in a legitimate search by a suitably authorised person.

and that suitably authorised person is a Holder of the Office of Constable.

I have worked for a technology company in a warehouse that holds millions of pounds worth of phones ... Company managers and the SIA badged security have very limited powers of search ( basically stand and watch and ask you to do things / walk through the magnetometer arches / 'wand' you ) and the company policy basically says if we suspect you have been stealing we will try and detain you on site until the Police come

Wrong.
See above.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Some of the comments here suggest that some people have never read and understood all the words in the Contracts of Employment!

 

[Llanigraham]

Under what law? Is it in RoRA or something

Under our Contract of Employment, Neil.