advanced tickets and breaking journey on the london underground

[MarkyMarkD]

For sure. I have often been tempted to spend the day in London in the middle of a very cheap "Advance to Timbuctu" journey from where I live. The availability of convenient and flexible "+connections" travel is very vulnerable to attack by ATOC and that's why I haven't abused it.

The strange thing is that there are occasions, on advances, where specified trains are explicitly stated (even where there are no reservations on those trains), so if there was a will to impose specific connections they could quite easily do it even with the existing systems. It would just then make the traveller's choices far more restricted which is not a good thing.

 

[Clip]

When I transferred at Athens, I had to stay within special area, got sent straight from arrivals to departures via a special corridor, without being required to go through passport

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Athens has smoking rooms though


Lets be honest on this subject now though without making up hypotheticals. Ive done it a few times myself when I didnt live in london and every time I have been let out at a different station to the one I was going. Yeah I had to ask but they let me. And no one at Kings Cross ever pulled me up on then carrying on using the ticket.

It happens quite a lot i should imagine too but as long as people dont take the preverbial I can see nothing wrong with it myself no matter what any rule book says.

 

[Skymonster]

It'll all come to a head sometime when an RPI on a +Connections TOC challenges someone for arriving at (e.g.) Euston at 1120 and not leaving Charing Cross until 1800.

Who said anything about a time limit? I certainly didn't.

But that's the implication isn't it? Sooner or later there's chance some RPI will decide someone has taken too long crossing London...

And if it were me I'd say something like - I decided to walk, and I sat on a bench in the park I happend to walk through enroute because my ankle hurt (or something like that)... And if the RPI still insisted on excessing me, I think I'd raise the whole thing with the Daily Mail or Watchdog...


Another good case in point is Nottingham, where there are barriers but where the only ATM is on the outside of the barriers but still inside the station forecourt... If a passenger on an advance is denied access to the ATM when connecting I could see that as an issue... And yet once at the ATM, it'd be very easy for the passenger to slip just across the road to the pub or to Greggs for a sausage roll without being noticed... And whilst the rules are clear, the day someone is caught out going to Greggs there's a risk that person could make a fuss about it and expose the rules for being rather rediculous.


If enough people were to get caught out, sooner or later one of them will raise a public argument about it. And whilst the rules protect the TOCs interests and loopholes might be "useful" to the savvy traveller, there's a risk of such loopholes being exposed making the rules look daft and the railway look like fools.

Andy

 

[AndyLandy]

If you've got a booked train both in and out of London, I'd be surprised if anyone cares what you do in the London crossing gap. So long as you make your booked trains, I can't imagine the TOCs being bothered. If you want to play things straight by TFL as well, pay for your own crossing with intermediate stops and don't use your rail ticket.

If you have a +Connections ticket, it's harder to call. In the past, I used to get +Connections on the SWT part of a Crewe-Southampton via London ticket (Before SWT had advance quotas on their services) I'd often take advantage of this and get into London for early afternoon and hang around for a few hours before getting an evening train back to Southampton. The spirit of the ticket would be that I should get a train in the evening peak back to Southampton. In practice, I'd suspect that SWT would far prefer that I got a quieter evening train than a peak one.

 

[cuccir]

If enough people were to get caught out, sooner or later one of them will raise a public argument about it. And whilst the rules protect the TOCs interests and loopholes might be "useful" to the savvy traveller, there's a risk of such loopholes being exposed making the rules look daft and the railway look like fools.

Yes, but one of the points that this thread is missing is that people aren't being 'caught out' on this? Are we aware of any situations in which someone has popped out to Greggs, been stopped by an RPI, and not allowed back into the station on the grounds that they had unreasonably broken their journey? Or where someone walking between London stations has been traced to check their behaviour?

Now, this situation isn't totally implausible, I agree, but until it actually starts happening we can all relax a little!

 

[moonrakerz]

Another good case in point is Nottingham, where there are barriers but where the only ATM is on the outside of the barriers but still inside the station forecourt... If a passenger on an advance is denied access to the ATM when connecting I could see that as an issue...

The ATM at Exeter St Davids is an even more curious example. The ATM signs in the station direct you to the machine which is on the outside of the station building - almost "in the car park".
This must therefore be classified as being still on the station - but at the same time it must be classified as being outside the station as there are plenty of people by it having a cigarette

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Another good case in point is Nottingham, where there are barriers but where the only ATM is on the outside of the barriers but still inside the station forecourt... If a passenger on an advance is denied access to the ATM when connecting I could see that as an issue....

If it is within the station the you should be allowed to use it within the rules (using station facilities).

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think anyone is saying that. It's perfectly valid to walk from, say, Liverpool St to Paddington just as it's valid to walk from St Pancras to Euston. The TOCs are not going to be fussed over such matters as whether someone gets a drink from a shop that is not on station premises on the way, but if loads of business people in suits with briefcases start pretending to have done such a walk when really they've had a meeting, I suspect they may not be happy then.

Well, it depends on your interpretation of the rules doesn't it! And, you feel it does fall foul of the rules, the only way to test it would be to find someone with such a condition to test it, and own up and ask the TOC if they want to charge an excess fare. I suspect the answer is likely to be that no excess is charged

Yes, come to think of it, I can see that might be a problem if businessmen started getting advances on peak hour trains for this purpose. For most cases though, it does seem a bit like "making windows into peoples souls" for railway staff to try and speculate what people have been doing on the way.

When I used to buy cross-London advanced tickets, they tended to be very specific that I had to catch that Inter-City train, but there was no inference of me having to catch a particular train at the other end, just so long as it was on the day complied with that companies peak-hour requirements.

 

[IanXC]

The strange thing is that there are occasions, on advances, where specified trains are explicitly stated (even where there are no reservations on those trains), so if there was a will to impose specific connections they could quite easily do it even with the existing systems. It would just then make the traveller's choices far more restricted which is not a good thing.

I've had this out with the gateline staff at Glasgow Queen Street a couple of times. I wanted to go A2B rather than Falkirk High and when asked they were insistent I must take the route in the itinery.

However if I say nothing at the Low Level gateline they let me through. The guard on one of the A2B services even said, "maybe SR should book all other operators advances this way"

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Yes, come to think of it, I can see that might be a problem if businessmen started getting advances on peak hour trains for this purpose. For most cases though, it does seem a bit like "making windows into peoples souls" for railway staff to try and speculate what people have been doing on the way.

The real point is that you can get a seriously off-peak (say mid-morning) advance for a very low fare, and then travel into (say) London in the peak.

Indeed, by adjusting the transfer time settings on NRE, you can get it to give you an itinerary which achieves this in which case arguably you have a rock-solid right to spend a few hours on your inter-station transfer.

I really think the reality is that any inter-station transfer which involves going outside National Rail premises is impossible to monitor in any meaningful way. And that includes walking and LUL legs.

The other side of the coin is that, the earlier customers undertake their "pre-reserved leg" journey, the lower the risk of them missing their reserved leg and claiming under Delay Repay. So it probably overall benefits the TOCs for customers to get to their reserved leg departure station early.

 

[yorksrob]

The real point is that you can get a seriously off-peak (say mid-morning) advance for a very low fare, and then travel into (say) London in the peak.

Indeed, by adjusting the transfer time settings on NRE, you can get it to give you an itinerary which achieves this in which case arguably you have a rock-solid right to spend a few hours on your inter-station transfer.

I really think the reality is that any inter-station transfer which involves going outside National Rail premises is impossible to monitor in any meaningful way. And that includes walking and LUL legs.

The other side of the coin is that, the earlier customers undertake their "pre-reserved leg" journey, the lower the risk of them missing their reserved leg and claiming under Delay Repay. So it probably overall benefits the TOCs for customers to get to their reserved leg departure station early.

Having looked at NRE a couple of months in advance for Ashford - Leeds journey's, there don't appear to be any AP's available leaving Ashford before 9:00 am, so it looks as though they've factored it in from that direction anyway

 

[yorkie]

Yes, they've put a block on such Advance tickets on HS1. The more people try to state that they can misuse the system then the more prospect of such restrictions increasing. There was even talk of a coupon for non-reserveable trains compelling you to get a specific connection, but that went quiet (it would have been ridiculous on Merseyrail or journeys from, say, Clapham Jn).

 

[island]

Advances were never valid before 10am on HS1 going towards London.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, they've put a block on such Advance tickets on HS1. The more people try to state that they can misuse the system then the more prospect of such restrictions increasing. There was even talk of a coupon for non-reserveable trains compelling you to get a specific connection, but that went quiet (it would have been ridiculous on Merseyrail or journeys from, say, Clapham Jn).

I could image that working against the passenger the other way. Let's say you are travelling from Leeds - Woking. You arrive at Kings Cross early get a good run over London on the tube and get a train to Woking a lot earlier than expected with a Penalty fare for the trouble.

Oh well I guess I should stop going to the pub at Barnetby on those long waits for connections to Market Rasen and eat at one of the many outlets on the station. Lol.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, they've put a block on such Advance tickets on HS1. The more people try to state that they can misuse the system then the more prospect of such restrictions increasing. There was even talk of a coupon for non-reserveable trains compelling you to get a specific connection, but that went quiet (it would have been ridiculous on Merseyrail or journeys from, say, Clapham Jn).

I think it would be ridiculous frankly. By all means protect your peak flow, but why on earth do the railway companies have an interest in what off-peak connection you get so long as it's an off-peak one.

 

[clagmonster]

Having looked at NRE a couple of months in advance for Ashford - Leeds journey's, there don't appear to be any AP's available leaving Ashford before 9:00 am, so it looks as though they've factored it in from that direction anyway

What happens if you ask to avoid Ebbsfleet Intl (or Stratford Intl, they should have the same effect).

 

[yorksrob]

What happens if you ask to avoid Ebbsfleet Intl (or Stratford Intl, they should have the same effect).

Nothing at the moment as NRE seems to be throwing a wobbly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update - you get an advance fare allowing you to travel to London during the peak hour.

However - this is still ten pounds more than the anytime single to London, so it's not as if you can play the system and get away without paying the full anytime fare into London anyway.