Advice needed - Chiltern excess fare demand

[Waverley125]

On Sunday 16th March 2014 I boarded the 1455 Moor Street - Marylebone service, to travel to Leamington Spa.

I purchased an Anytime Day Single from Birmingham Stations to Leamington, Route 'Chiltern Only' and 16-25 railcard, price of £4.30

When the Guard came to inspect fares I found I did not have my railcard with me, and apologised. (Railcard number YOU00453680)

The guard asked I pay an excess on the fare as my ticket was not valid without my railcard, to which I agreed - the full-fare anytime single for that journey being £6.50, an excess of £2.20. The guard then demanded aggressively that I must pay for a £9.10 'Any Permitted' single. I objected, as I had (railcard aside) a valid ticket, and because I was not travelling XC.

I attempted to get an explanation, but he refused, and would only repeatedly (and increasing loudly and aggressively) demand the fare. I pointed out this his behaviour was discurteous, and that I would be making a complaint to Chiltern because of it. I also pointed out that, as a Network Rail employee, I wouldn't let this put me off using Chiltern but that the other passengers might.

Having taken payment, he then said 'Network Rail, my god, you should be bloody ashamed of yourself' and stormed off. At this point, many of the passengers were visibly shocked by his behaviour. Intending to complain, I went back to my paper and expected to alight at Leamington without further issue.

Instead, having dispatched the train from Warwick Parkway he returned (I was sat at the very front of a three-car 170) with a 16-25 railcard leaflet, and shouted points 5 & 6 from the T&Cs at me, before saying 'so you're wrong, you idiot' and walking off again.

At this point I have several questions

1. Where can I get a refund on the excess ticket I bought?

2. How can I ensure that someone at Chiltern has a word with this ****?

 

[transportphoto]

It is standard protocol to charge for a new ticket as if no ticket is held when a railcard isn't presented with a railcard discounted ticket, guards do have the ability to use their discretion however this guard chose not to.

I personally don't think it was wise of you to point out your employer, this may have counted against you, the only point you have to complain about (if it were true) is that you were called an 'idiot'...

1. Where can I get a refund on the excess ticket I bought?

A refund of the unused ticket (original £4.30 ticket) is theoretically possible, however this will be subject to a £10 administration charge, so there is nothing to refund. The ticket you used to travel was the new one you purchased from the guard.

2. How can I ensure that someone at Chiltern has a word with this ****?

You could write in, but I can't see any point in you doing so to be honest. Unless you write in commenting on the way the guard handled it from a third party point of view.

The guard followed procedure and charged you correctly, I wouldn't be referring to him as a 'moron' for doing his job correctly, albeit with reported little regard for customer service.

TP

 

[Zoidberg]

...

The guard then demanded aggressively that I must pay for a £9.10 'Any Permitted' single.

...

Instead, having dispatched the train from Warwick Parkway he returned (I was sat at the very front of a three-car 170) with a 16-25 railcard leaflet, and shouted points 5 & 6 from the T&Cs at me, before saying 'so you're wrong, you idiot' and walking off again.

...

I just read conditions 5 and 6 at http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-card/railcard-terms-conditions/

Was he not right, not about the 'idiot' remark, but about insisting on you paying the full Standard Single fare?

Conditions 5 and 6 ...

5 Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

6 You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

EDIT: I type too slowly - the answer is in post #2.

 

[Waverley125]

Quite potentially he's technically correct. I don't care, I didn't realise I didn't have my railcard on me, had I done so I'd have paid for the £6.50 ticket. It's abhorrent that instead of paying £2.20 more I'm asked to pay an extra £9.10 for a ticket I'm not using.

I also object to being abused by staff on the railway. It's fine when it's me, but if that were (for instance) my mother you'd never get her on a Chiltern service again after such appalling customer service.

 

[transportphoto]

Quite potentially he's technically correct. I don't care, I didn't realise I didn't have my railcard on me, had I done so I'd have paid for the £6.50 ticket. It's abhorrent that instead of paying £2.20 more I'm asked to pay an extra £9.10 for a ticket I'm not using.

Unfortunately this doesn't change what the rules are, you accepted these terms and conditions when you ticked the box online when you bought the railcard... but you probably didn't read them; nobody does.

I also object to being abused by staff on the railway. It's fine when it's me, but if that were (for instance) my mother you'd never get her on a Chiltern service again after such appalling customer service.

Feel free to complain to Chiltern about the negative experience you had of the company, but I wouldn't hold your hopes high! Their complaints procedure and details of how to complain can be found in this document.

Please do report how you get on

TP

 

[455driver]

So you bought a railcard discounted ticket but didnt have your railcard on you (making your ticket invalid, not technically invalid, it was strictly not valid), you are then correctly asked to buy a new undiscounted ticket, refuse and the guard is a moron!

Yeah woteva! :roll:

If it was possible to just get the ticket excessed what is to stop every Tom Dick or idiot trying their hand and just buy a railcard discounted ticket and if they get caught just be excessed up to the ticket they should have bought in the first place!

The whole point of the new ticket is to act as a deterrent, something that wouldnt exist if the excess was available.

I must be really unlucky because whenever I see somebody get caught on a train they get stroppy and the guard is always polite (why I dont know but there you go) and yet on all these threads its always the other way round!

Make sure you get your complaint in quick otherwise the CCTV evidence will be lost.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree that the Guard applied the correct procedure, though admittedly there is some temptation, especially if asked politely before boarding, to show some discretion to passengers who are clearly apologetic or confused.

Judging from your post on here, I expect that you would have failed the so-called 'attitude test' which might just have triggered that discretion, and that is why you were only offered a full fare.
I see that you refer to the guard using the word "idiot", but you failed to illustrate the terms in which you expressed your mistaken view which appeares to have been stubborn, unwilling to accept that you were wrong, and asserting a complaint. I don't think many guards would bother showing discretion or courtesy to anyone behaving like that. I wonder if the 'discourteous' behaviour you mention could have been a response to your own?

However, I am pleased that there is one piece of helpful advice that I can offer you. It is this: Please take great care before calling anyone a 'moron'; you do so at your own hazard.

 

[MyFriendMary]

Being unable to present the railcard on your journey would mean that the Guard has followed the procedure by issuing the full priced single fare for your journey. Luckily it was a Guard and not an RPI as it is a Penalty Fare offence which, since working for Network Rail, could lead to some troubles there possibly.

As for the Guard's behaviour - without being present it is difficult to comment on why they behaved as they did. You are entitled to complain though and I'd recommend doing so with the like provided above

 

[MichaelAMW]

Why was the fare due £9.10? I would have thought that the £6.50 ticket was "full price Standard Single fare for your journey", to quote the conditions.

 

[Urban Gateline]

If you are really Network Rail staff OP, you should keep your nose clean and not put up any further complaint, I'm sure Network Rail would be delighted to hear you broke a Railway byelaw...:roll:

Without the railcard itself being present the ticket becomes invalid and the procedure is to buy a new undiscounted ticket so the Guard did nothing wrong. You are lucky it wasn't an RPI that challenged you, as refusing to pay/making a fuss could have led to you being prosecuted!

 

[tbtc]

I can only echo what others have said - my understanding was that if you don't have a valid ticket (and you didn't have a valid ticket - no "technically" about it) - then you are ticketless on a train, so in no position to ask for any form of discount ticket (like an operator-specific one).

I wouldn't go down the "don't you know who I work for" line of argument, I wouldn't get petty with a member of staff who was doing their job correctly and I really wouldn't mention my YP railcard number on a public forum so that someone could identify me.

Count yourself lucky you are only a few quid out of pocket, keep your head down and stop calling railway professionals "morons".

Oh, and...

(I was sat at the very front of a three-car 170)

...a 168, you mean?

Chiltern don't have any 170s yet

 

[Waverley125]

Wow.

A guard acts, in the words of one of the people sat next to me, as a '****', berates a passenger, and the only care is that he correctly applied the rules?

As everyone sat around me agreed - if those are the rules, the rules are wrong. An innocent mistake shouldn't get such a harsh punishment. It's lucky it was only a tenner, and not as substantial a penalty as could have been on a longer-distance service.

If this is the sympathy an average member of the public can expect from the railway, little wonder we have such difficulty getting people out of their cars.

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind.

 

[tbtc]

Count yourself lucky you are only a few quid out of pocket, keep your head down and stop calling railway professionals "morons"

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind

Well, I tried to help...

 

[Waverley125]

Well, I tried to help...

I think the better railway is one where guards don't run down their trains to berate their passengers, but that may just be me.

 

[transportphoto]

A guard acts, in the words of one of the people sat next to me, as a '*****', berates a passenger, and the only care is that he correctly applied the rules?

Indeed it is, what else can we advise?

As everyone sat around me agreed - if those are the rules, the rules are wrong. An innocent mistake shouldn't get such a harsh punishment. It's lucky it was only a tenner, and not as substantial a penalty as could have been on a longer-distance service.

If you don't agree with the rules I do suggest you desist using your railcard. As I pointed out earlier, you accepted the rules when you purchased your railcard, if you don't agree with the terms and conditions of it's use, don't use it!

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind.

Please do let us know when you plan to make the journey and we'll make sure that the British Transport Police and Chiltern Railway know of your intentions so that they can make adequate measures to protect the Guard's safety. I do hope your employers find out that you have breached a Railway Byelaw and have then threatened to abuse a member of railway staff... :roll:

TP

 

[Urban Gateline]

Wow.

A guard acts, in the words of one of the people sat next to me, as a 'jobsworth wanker', berates a passenger, and the only care is that he correctly applied the rules?

As everyone sat around me agreed - if those are the rules, the rules are wrong. An innocent mistake shouldn't get such a harsh punishment. It's lucky it was only a tenner, and not as substantial a penalty as could have been on a longer-distance service.

If this is the sympathy an average member of the public can expect from the railway, little wonder we have such difficulty getting people out of their cars.

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind.

I'm quite astonished by your poor attitude! You bought the Railcard so you agreed to its terms of use when buying a discounted ticket. Whether you or passengers around you think the rules are wrong is irrelevant, they are the rules and you should not expect the Guard to give discretion to you especially if you are rude and arrogant to them. It's your funeral if you decide to give "him a piece of" your mind, as the saying goes if you're already in a hole, stop digging!

What you call an "innocent mistake" is unfortunately not always the case, maybe not you, but many people do buy discounted tickets to which they have no entitlement to and then claim to have left their railcard at home! You must understand it from the industry's point of view that if passengers were just allowed to pay the difference when challenged there would be little deterrent to fare evaders buying discounted tickets for which they have no railcard!

You mention "average member of the public", well most people falling in this category who have a railcard are aware of its terms of use and follow the rules and accept that they have to buy a new ticket if they don't carry the railcard.

 

[yorkie]

On Sunday 16th March 2014 I boarded the 1455 Moor Street - Marylebone service, to travel to Leamington Spa.

I purchased an Anytime Day Single from Birmingham Stations to Leamington, Route 'Chiltern Only' and 16-25 railcard, price of £4.30

When the Guard came to inspect fares I found I did not have my railcard with me, and apologised. (Railcard number YOU00453680)

The guard asked I pay an excess on the fare as my ticket was not valid without my railcard, to which I agreed - the full-fare anytime single for that journey being £6.50, an excess of £2.20. The guard then demanded aggressively that I must pay for a £9.10 'Any Permitted' single. I objected, as I had (railcard aside) a valid ticket, and because I was not travelling XC.

Neither action is correct.

The correct course of action would be to charge you for a new ticket, the Chiltern Only ticket would suffice, at £6.50.

You are not entitled to pay the excess, though the Guard could charge you the excess at his/her discretion.

1. Where can I get a refund on the excess ticket I bought?

2. How can I ensure that someone at Chiltern has a word with this moron?

If you call him names, Chiltern will no doubt take his side and assume you are in the wrong.

I would ask for a refund of the difference between the Chiltern Only fare and the Any Permitted fare, and point out that this Guard is costing Chiltern money to XC by not selling Chiltern Only fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why was the fare due £9.10? I would have thought that the £6.50 ticket was "full price Standard Single fare for your journey", to quote the conditions.

Indeed, £6.50 would be correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this is the sympathy an average member of the public can expect from the railway, little wonder we have such difficulty getting people out of their cars.

But when you are so insulting about the guard, you will lose all sympathy, and Chiltern will back the Guard up. It doesn't matter if you think you were provoked. That's the way it is.

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind.

Is that wise? If you forget or lose your Railcard again, the guard will be able to note down your details for the prosecution department.

A Red Dwarf quote seems rather apt: "I know this game... it's called cat and mouse. There's only one way to win... don't be the mouse."

If you've been wronged, you make the right moves, and you can get a good outcome. Make the wrong moves, and you may regret it...

 

[bnm]

(Railcard number YOU00453680)

Someone should be able to identify the OP with that...

 

[Waverley125]

I think two things need to be made clear.

Firstly, I have a fully valid railcard, which I believed was in my wallet at all points up till I went to get it and it wasn't there. That's my mistake, but I was in no way trying to get away with buying a ticket absent of that railcard.

Second, the guard berated me, firstly while buying the ticket and then coming the length of the train to do so again. He was at all times aggressive and rude.

I am undoubtedly angry at the way I was treated. His behaviour was completely unprofessional, and in a more customer-focused business would get him fired (right or wrong his application of the rules).

 

[transportphoto]

If on those basis you wish to complain to Chiltern, their contact details and complaint procedures can be found using the URL I posted earlier

TP

 

[yorkie]

I think two things need to be made clear.

Firstly, I have a fully valid railcard, which I believed was in my wallet at all points up till I went to get it and it wasn't there. That's my mistake, but I was in no way trying to get away with buying a ticket absent of that railcard.

I agree that a prosecution under the RoRA would not succeed, but that doesn't mean a Penalty Fare or Byelaw prosecution wouldn't succeed.

Second, the guard berated me, firstly while buying the ticket and then coming the length of the train to do so again. He was at all times aggressive and rude.

I am undoubtedly angry at the way I was treated. His behaviour was completely unprofessional, and in a more customer-focused business would get him fired (right or wrong his application of the rules).

And what if the guard denies it and counter-claims you were "aggressive and rude" and points to this forum thread as evidence?

My advice would have been to be polite throughout, get other passengers details if they are prepared to be witnesses, and make a polite complaint.

I think under the circumstances you're best off leaving it now!

 

[island]

Neither action is correct.

The correct course of action would be to charge you for a new ticket, the Chiltern Only ticket would suffice, at £6.50.

This is incorrect.

A passenger with a Railcard-discounted ticket who is unable to present the Railcard is treated as being without a ticket. (NRCoC 22)

A passenger without a ticket is liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare, or if appropriate, a Penalty Fare. (NRCoC 2)

The full single fare or full return fare is defined as "the highest priced single... fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making". (NRCoC 2)

It is entirely clear that the guard was entitled to sell an ANY PERMITTED ticket, which is the highest priced single fare at £9.30. He could have used discretion to sell a CHILTERN ONLY ticket or an excess fare, but I see no need in repeating DaveNewcastle's analysis and reference to the "attitude test".

If the OP had been seen by an Authorised Collector he would been liable to a Penalty Fare of £20.

I would urge Waverley125 not to take the matter any further. Aside from the small residual risk of a byelaw prosecution, by far the most likely outcome is that Chiltern will send a wishy-washy "we're sorry you were unhappy with your journey" response.

 

[tony6499]

To the OP you may wish to ask for this thread to be deleted, you've basically identified yourself as a Network Rail employee intending to threaten and abuse a Conductor and your employers may not look too favourably at this

 

[yorkie]

The full single fare or full return fare is defined as "the highest priced single... fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making". (NRCoC 2).

That doesn't mean the 'route' should be disregarded. An Anytime ticket is still a full-fare ticket, and the routeing shouldn't be altered to artificially inflate the price. I've seen memos from TOCs reminding staff of this!

It doesn't make sense for Chiltern to give money to XC either - Chiltern had these flows taken from them by XC, and Chiltern have every right to 100% of the revenue on this ticket, rather than a much smaller percentage on a ticket that costs a bit more.

 

[TheEdge]

Wow.

A guard acts, in the words of one of the people sat next to me, as a '****', berates a passenger, and the only care is that he correctly applied the rules?

As everyone sat around me agreed - if those are the rules, the rules are wrong. An innocent mistake shouldn't get such a harsh punishment. It's lucky it was only a tenner, and not as substantial a penalty as could have been on a longer-distance service.

If this is the sympathy an average member of the public can expect from the railway, little wonder we have such difficulty getting people out of their cars.

I make the Leamington to Birmingham journey regularly, so I do hope the chap turns up again so I can give him a piece of my mind.

Yea, I can see why you had no chance of getting the discount excessed away....

Now really, are the rules wrong because they really are wrong or are they wrong because you broke them and they still apply and got enforced?

(Hint, its the second one... :roll: )

 

[MichaelAMW]

This is incorrect.

A passenger with a Railcard-discounted ticket who is unable to present the Railcard is treated as being without a ticket. (NRCoC 22)

A passenger without a ticket is liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare, or if appropriate, a Penalty Fare. (NRCoC 2)

The full single fare or full return fare is defined as "the highest priced single... fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making". (NRCoC 2)

It is entirely clear that the guard was entitled to sell an ANY PERMITTED ticket, which is the highest priced single fare at £9.30. He could have used discretion to sell a CHILTERN ONLY ticket or an excess fare, but I see no need in repeating DaveNewcastle's analysis and reference to the "attitude test".

Just to be clear, as an alternative example: Are you implying that if I were travelling on a Southampton to Brighton Route Barnham ticket, £10.25 with my railcard discount, then in the event I did not have my railcard it would be reasonable and appropriate to charge me the Any Permitted fare of £57.20 rather than the Route Barnham (full) fare of £15,50? As you have said, it's the highest fare "for the journey you are making", not the highest fare for any *possible* journey between the two places, so I find it hard to agree with you here. Yorkie's view, that the full version of the Route Chiltern fare should be charged, seems to reflect the rule accurately.

 

[yorkie]

MichaelAMW - exactly. And, funnily enough, I was just discussing this with another forum member, and I also gave Southampton to Brighton as the example. Spooky or what?!!

 

[island]

Just to be clear, as an alternative example: Are you implying that if I were travelling on a Southampton to Brighton Route Barnham ticket, £10.25 with my railcard discount, then in the event I did not have my railcard it would be reasonable and appropriate to charge me the Any Permitted fare of £57.20 rather than the Route Barnham (full) fare of £15.50?

Yes. That is the effect of the rule as written. If the rule should not say that, then it should be changed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

FWIW, I believe most of Chiltern's Train Managers are Penalty Fare trained, so by rights the OP should have been issued a £20 Penalty Fare, or even prosecuted under Byelaw 17 (Moor Street being a CTA).

 

[island]

You can't be prosecuted for a byelaw 17 breach. Or you can, but there is no punishment.