Advice re Anytime Fare charged for travelling on the wrong train on an Advance ticket

[34D]

Ah yes, the mythical man on the platform said...!

The problem I suspect here, is that the conversation went:

Passenger : 'Where does the Stevenage train leave from?'
Platform staff : 'The next one is from Platform 9'
Passenger : 'Thanks very much'

The onus is on the passenger to make sure they ask the right question, otherwise you'll get the wrong answer. Although, a 300 quid bill for that is a bit harsh in my opinion!

Its not the wrong question, its also the wrong answer.

The response (from any staff member at York) to the question "which platform for Stevenage/London surely ought to be to "can I see your tickets, please" not to offer information which may or not be appropriate.

 

[GadgetMan]

Its not the wrong question, its also the wrong answer.

The response (from any staff member at York) to the question "which platform for Stevenage/London surely ought to be to "can I see your tickets, please" not to offer information which may or not be appropriate.

Not all platform staff are familiar with ticket types and restrictions. If the passenger is not sure about the validity of their ticket then it is their responsibility to ask the right questions to familiarise themselves with the restrictions. It isn't practical for platform staff to be asking passengers to produce their ticket everytime someone wants to know a platform number or train departure time.

 

[richandmich]

I appreciate all the responses; thank you for taking the time.

My wife did check the tickets while on the train form Brough, but could not see the train times; I think she looked at the tickets, rather than the seat reservations. She was dealing with three boisterous kids, a load of luggage and was in a highly emotional state after receiving bad news about her mother's health.

In response to specific points:

The conversation went "where do we go to get trains to Stevenage?"
"Platform (X). There is one coming in shortly"
"Do you know what time it gets into Stevenage?"
"8.20"

No, my wife knows the tickets apply to only a specific train; she thought she was getting on the right one.

Yes, she should have seen the train time on the seat reservation when she looked at it for the carriage and seat numbers. She didn't. She was rushed, stressed and harrassed. Her eyesight is crap and she had forgotten her reading glasses.

Was she negligent? In the strict eyes of the law, I think she was. Are East Coast entitled to levy a charge? In the strict eyes of the law they are.

However, there was clearly no intent to gain benefit, nor was any gained. Not even getting an earlier train. She had to run up a ramp and across a bridge to the train with kids and cases; she would have preferred to have taken her time and got herself in order. The train arrived three minutes before the one on which she was booked.

East Coast suffered no loss, nor were other passengers inconvenienced. The carriage in which my wife and the kids travelled was empty save two other passengers.

East Coast sees fit to criminalise their customers in those circumstances?

In the past 12 months our family has spent over £1500 on train fares to see our parents in Hull and Newcastle. (My father died suddenly in January while I was with him and you would not believe the conversation I had with customer services when I explained I was at my dying father's bedside and asked their help to re-arrange my ticket) We always book advance tickets so, yes, we know the rules. We have also ample evidence it is our intent to follow them.

We'd love to talk to the East Coast management, but two calls to customer service have ended with "No-one at the company can help you once the process has begun. Your appeal to Revenue Protection has been turned down, you must pay".

Please can someone give me the address of Peter Williams, the Customer Service Director? His phone number would, of course, be lovely

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Its not the wrong question, its also the wrong answer.

The response (from any staff member at York) to the question "which platform for Stevenage/London surely ought to be to "can I see your tickets, please" not to offer information which may or not be appropriate.

Firstly, answering a question with a question is impolite. Secondly, members of this forum have noted in previous threads that they would take exception to member of platform staff asking that question in response to a simple request for information on the basis that it is none of the staff member's business, and, unless they are actually revenue staff who happen to be on the platform, they have a point.

If the passenger asks the right question they get the right answer.

I recall an occasion I was working at City Thaneslink and a passenger asked what time the next train to St Albans was. I looked up at the departure board and told them the time of the next fast train to St Albans. They then proceeded to ask for a ticket to Radlett. The right question was actually "what time is the next train to Radlett?", but this is not what they asked and consequently they did not get the right information.

 

[RPI]

It may seem harsh but im afraid you need to lay blame on the chancers who are responible for such strict enforcement, how many people have i had saying "Oh, i cant find my reservation" when i can see it clearly in their wallet just hiding behind the credit card they put in the way, the reservation for the previous train in most cases, for every 10 people i "catch" on the wrong trains with Advance tickets i would say 9 of them are trying it on with only the one being genuine. It's not like the restrictions are confusing either, its quite simple and is only a couple of paragraphs.

 

[bb21]

East Coast sees fit to criminalise their customers in those circumstances?

I think this is a rather strong word and does not actually reflect what East Coast's actions indicate. They haven't criminalised anyone. They merely charged your family members the correct fare valid for travel on the service they took.

I believe that many people are of the opinion that it is very harsh to charge an additional £300 for a truly innocent mistake, however apart from offering sympathy, there is very little forum members can help you with.

If I were you, I would contact East Coast in writing, explain the circumstances and see what they say. If no joy, then feel free to contact someone higher up, although I must point out that this does not guarantee you will get your money back.

I would pay the debt collectors unless you still have some time available, although I doubt you will hear a response from East Coast before the debt agency becomes impatient.

Sorry we can't be of more help.

 

[richandmich]

It may seem harsh but im afraid you need to lay blame on the chancers who are responible for such strict enforcement, how many people have i had saying "Oh, i cant find my reservation" when i can see it clearly in their wallet just hiding behind the credit card they put in the way, the reservation for the previous train in most cases, for every 10 people i "catch" on the wrong trains with Advance tickets i would say 9 of them are trying it on with only the one being genuine. It's not like the restrictions are confusing either, its quite simple and is only a couple of paragraphs.

Perhaps, but that excuse has been used by every East Coast customer service agent I have spoken with, including the particularly unpleasant lady who effectively told me she did not believe my "dying father story" (the actual phrase she used).

East Coast is a service business which, as a result of the scenarios you describe, has taken an adversarial stance with its customers. Furthermore, that stance has led to a corporate culture geared to the mistrust of those customers. That culture is evident in every interaction I have had with the organisation.

That is the road to damnation for any business.

I think this is a rather strong word and does not actually reflect what East Coast's actions indicate. They haven't criminalised anyone. They merely charged your family members the correct fare valid for travel on the service they took.

Sorry to disagree, but I have been placed in a situation where I must pay or see my credit standing damaged and, ultimately, face criminal prosecution. I stand by the word 'criminalise'

 

[yorkie]

East Coast sees fit to criminalise their customers in those circumstances?

Not at this stage, no they aren't doing that.

However if you simply did not pay, then they have a choice to make. I couldn't say if they would pursue her through the courts or not, and whether or not a defence may succeed, but if you are unable to reach an agreement with East Coast, then I would consider legal advice (you may be able to get a free initial appointment).

Another tactic that can work is going to the media, e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/may/12/consumernews.moneysupplement2 (note: the title is misleading; it was an Anytime fare not a fine). The previous franchise holder was very quick to cancel the UFN - but was not until the media got involved. That case was a bit different to yours but the tactic can still work.

Other people have had successes, a couple of examples that occurred a few years ago with previous franchise holder GNER that relate to an almost identical situation to yours:-

Last year I inadvertently boarded a 17.55 GNER train at York for London King's Cross, my destination, with a first class ticket bought in advance. On the trip I was told this was not the train on my ticket but an earlier train that was delayed. "Didn't hear the announcement?" said the guard. There wasn't one that I heard at York, or at any other destination en route to King's Cross. Also, a GNER uniformed train assistant had seen my first class ticket at York and pointed me to the carriage and my reserved seat. I refused to pay the guard the £120 he demanded. He took my name and address, declining to see my driver's licence. Half an hour later he came back, took me out of the carriage, told me there was no record of me living at my address in York on their software, and if I didn't tell the truth about my identity I'd be arrested at King's Cross.

He called me a "fare dodger" several times and it was humiliating to be "escorted" out of the first class carriage in full view of other passengers. Luckily, I had my driver's licence and could prove he was wrong - but it was awfully embarrassing after a full day lecturing at York University. And, of
course, no apology!

So in the space of 30 minutes a first class paying passenger went from a upright member of the academic community to a "dangerous" individual - a nasty "fare dodger" - the allegation being that I tried to get something for nothing. This is appalling. I've never defrauded transport providers and am the first to say it is wrong to do so. I later discovered all east coast line GNER trains ran late that afternoon. To cut a long story short, six weeks later GNER wrote to me demanding £120 plus £10 admin costs - I refused. In reply, I wrote letters to GNER, its chief executive and my MP. I got a response from my MP, but none from GNER's CEO. The CEO later wrote to my MP admitting just what your article said: they are having problems with customers boarding inadvertently.

The upshot was, they issued me with a letter from their "prosecutions department" reducing the fee to £82 but loosely implying (threatening?) that my credit worthiness may be affected if I was convicted of fraud! I wrote back suggesting we pay £41 each as we were both equally to blame. That was in January. They wrote to me this week (after my prompting phone call) saying the case is closed, thanks for my "cooperation in this case" and trusting that I "will have no more problems when travelling on GNER services". What a cheek!

Overall, I think they're extorting money from the public, they're unreasonable, don't admit their mistakes, and everyone is socially constructed within their system as a potential "fare dodger", irrespective of the facts. How many fare dodgers buy first class tickets in advance? It's made me nervous when travelling on GNER. I'm always worried about having another "big brother" experience.
Dr Kevin Corbett PhD RN, senior research fellow in health and social care, Liverpool John Moores University

My pre-booked mid-day train from Doncaster ran late, so I caught the one in front - also late - at roughly the pre-booked time. Plenty of empty seats, but I was harangued by the ticket collector, who refused to accept that, as GNER had not kept its side of our bargain, I felt justified in what I did. A erbal bottom-smacking in front of the rest of the carriage followed, but at 0-plus that doesn't worry me. I refused to pay. What followed, however, was a letter from GNER, then letters from its outsourced solicitors, none of which even acknowledged my point of view. I phoned GNER at York, pointed out that going to court was stupid and would probably do them no good, and then was given a courteous (and, I felt, sincere) apology.
Terry Cooper, Sheffield

I would have thought the likes of the Daily Mail are likely to be interested in your case, based on previous articles they have printed, and I am pretty sure if that happened EC would drop the case as they don't want the negative publicity for charging £hundreds to a family who got a train arriving 3 minutes earlier into their destination.

The problem here is the amount of money being charged is that the rules require the "full" fare, not the "appropriate" fare to be charged, and for no consideration of the amount already paid to be charged. There were rumours that this whole practice was going to be investigated but it's all gone quiet. Some TOCs (e.g. Virgin Trains) now have a policy of being more lenient in this situation, as they recognise the risk for negative media attention and they clearly find the official rules unfair. TOCs are allowed to give passengers more rights than the minimum, and guards are allowed to show discretion. So making the same mistake will have different consequences depending on the TOC and the guard.

 

[GadgetMan]

How soon after being issued the Unpaid Fares Notices did you contest it. Was it done within the 21 days or whatever the time limit is or did you let that time period pass and wait for them to write to you advising of debt? Similarly when did you contact East Coast customer services and was it done in writing or on the phone?

None of the above changes the situation, however it appears this saga must have been going on a while for it to have been sent for debt recovery.

I believe East Coast can at any point cancel the debt should they wish contrary to what you've been told by them.

 

[yorkie]

I believe East Coast can at any point cancel the debt should they wish contrary to what you've been told by them.

Indeed they can.

Someone was harassed by those dodgy people at RPSS, and it was about to go to back to EC for possible prosecution, but an email to the right person at EC got the UFN cancelled completely and instantly (the guard who issued it did so incorrectly - one of many - and can no longer be seen inflicting misery on unsuspecting customers on the route).

So yes, I've witnessed it myself, EC most certainly can cancel it at any time - any claims to the contrary are simply not true.

I think the requirements for working at RPSS are an IQ well under the national average, no knowledge of the NRCoC, no knowledge of the Routeing Guide, no common sense, no awareness of the media, no compassion, no manners, and an ability to tell blatant lies. They are utterly clueless, faceless and disgraceful. By the way, they are a trading name of Southeastern!

 

[richandmich]

Thanks again to you all for your input.

I am particularly grateful to the member who sent me a very helpful private message. I tried to respond, but either your settings don't allow me to do so or I am even dumber than I thought I was and simply can't find the right button

 

[Ferret]

I do enjoy your rants Yorkie! Quite often I agree too!

Going back to the OP - criminalisation is the right word to use if EC did indeed go down the 'Notice of Intention to Prosecute' road. But yes, East Coast do have the ability to cancel a UFN - I've heard several examples of that happening. It's up to them to decide whether it's appropriate in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its not the wrong question, its also the wrong answer.

The response (from any staff member at York) to the question "which platform for Stevenage/London surely ought to be to "can I see your tickets, please" not to offer information which may or not be appropriate.

I see where you are coming from here - certainly whenever I get asked something on a platform along those lines, my first action is to ask to see the ticket! But then, I do actually have a clue what I'm looking at where tickets are concerned, which does place me in a minority.......!

 

[Flamingo]

If I was to say "can I see your ticket" to everybody who comes running along the platform asking "Is this the X train?", I'd never get off the platform!

 

[Ferret]

If I was to say "can I see your ticket" to everybody who comes running along the platform asking "Is this the X train?", I'd never get off the platform!

You do get a certain vibe from the confused specimens though!

 

[Greenback]

I would strongly advise anyone who wishes to contest something with any organisation to send writtne correpsondence rather than rely on telephoen calls to a contact centre.

Sadly, it is my experience with a rnage of organisations from banks to retailers, that staff int hese centres have less knowledge and discretion than those who deal with traditional letters.

With a letter, it cna be passed on to an appropriately senior or knowledgeable person. It can be considered at length and a proper reply composed. And a record is retained of exactly what was said by whom and when, which is vital in a chain of correspondence which could involve solicitors and court action at some point.

In this instance, it seems that incorrect information has been provided over the phone. Although EC are legally entitled to sell new tickets it is also very much within their power to resolve the situation.

 

[Ferret]

I partly agree Greenback, but I also hold the opinion that sometimes, speaking to a human being can be far more productive then sending letters and getting automatic replies.... However, when speaking to somebody, especially managers - get their name.

 

[snail]

East Coast is a service business which, as a result of the scenarios you describe, has taken an adversarial stance with its customers. Furthermore, that stance has led to a corporate culture geared to the mistrust of those customers. That culture is evident in every interaction I have had with the organisation.

That is the road to damnation for any business.

Or the end of Advance ticket offers if no one pays any attention to the conditions and expect to be 'let off' when challenged. You would probably find customer service improved because there would be fewer complaints like the ones described.

 

[222007]

Well not just a mistake, but if you read the OP a staff member at York told them to get on that train!

But the passenger did not show her ticket to the person she asked therefor the information given was CORRECT with the information presented. Had the misplaced reservation been shown then the staff member could have advised the actual correct information. No sympathy im afraid

 

[Greenback]

I partly agree Greenback, but I also hold the opinion that sometimes, speaking to a human being can be far more productive then sending letters and getting automatic replies.... However, when speaking to somebody, especially managers - get their name.

I speak entirely from experience. Talking with anyone, even supervisors and managers in a customer service/contact centre environment has been pretty pointless. Either the people involved have not udnerstood what I was saying, or when they did, they did not have the power to do anything about it and told me to write to a different department anyway!

Having worked in complaints and customer services myself, I realise that it is difficult to make an instant decision anyway, or even to ascertain the facts during a live phone call, particularly when things are getting a bit heated or emotional.

What I would add, though, is that it can be productive for both parties to have a telephone conversation (or even a meeting if the issues are serious enough to warrant one) with a named individual as a follow up to a letter or letters.

Unfortunately, it is far too easy for poorly trained, poorly paid and unknowledgable staff to attempt to fob people off, and the majority of organisations do not see the right differentiation between customer services and complaints.

In these sort of circumstances, I believe that the best approach would have been to immediately contact the TOC in writing and explain that it was simply a mistake that the worng train was boarded (leaving out the extraneous detail about children, poor eyesight and so on) and ask for a gesture of goodwill. If that avenue ultimately fails, the options are then either to pay up, have a day in court, or go running to the media.

 

[blacknight]

OP could try e-mailing [email protected] & explain circumstances to them. Try to stay calm & rational & use only relevent facts when you do this, ie boarded wrong train in a genuine mistake & unable to reconnect with correct train as its first stop Stevenage after York.
You might get a positive outcome come from them if you deal with them direct as opposed to recovery agency.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP could try e-mailing [email protected] & explain circumstances to them. Try to stay calm & rational & use only relevent facts when you do this, ie boarded wrong train in a genuine mistake & unable to reconnect with correct train as its first stop Stevenage after York.
You might get a positive outcome come from them if you deal with them direct as opposed to recovery agency.

I believe the matter is quite far advanced now. I would suggest contacting them in writing, as emails can often go unread.

East Coast's Customer Relations team are outsourced to Intelet, in Plymouth. The standard of their response has been unequivocally poor whenever I've had cause to contact them. I'm sorry I can't provide any further consolation!

 

[snail]

Thanks again to you all for your input.

I am particularly grateful to the member who sent me a very helpful private message. I tried to respond, but either your settings don't allow me to do so or I am even dumber than I thought I was and simply can't find the right button

You need 5 posts to activate the PM system. Keep going!

 

[BrianTheLion]

In this day and age Smartphones are very handy for avoiding this predicament! The onus is always on the passenger, regardless if a member of staff have pointed you in a certain direction.

Theres a few different apps that can provide departure information. I regularly check mine on approach to the station Im getting off at just so I have a reasonable idea of where Im heading to change trains.

Another thing which is handy is that you can check the arrival information too. You could have checked Stevenage which would have indicated that there were two trains within a couple of mins.. enough to at least set alarm bells ringing and ensure that the right train was boarded at York...

Might be worth considering if yourself or your wife have a smartphone? It'll certainly save your bacon in the future!

 

[calc7]

In this day and age Smartphones are very handy for avoiding this predicament! The onus is always on the passenger, regardless if a member of staff have pointed you in a certain direction.

Theres a few different apps that can provide departure information. I regularly check mine on approach to the station Im getting off at just so I have a reasonable idea of where Im heading to change trains.

Another thing which is handy is that you can check the arrival information too. You could have checked Stevenage which would have indicated that there were two trains within a couple of mins.. enough to at least set alarm bells ringing and ensure that the right train was boarded at York...

Might be worth considering if yourself or your wife have a smartphone? It'll certainly save your bacon in the future!

I know what you're saying is meant with the best of intentions, but one could conclude from this post that you have little chance of successfully completing a multi-leg rail journey without a Smartphone.

 

[BrianTheLion]

I know what you're saying is meant with the best of intentions, but one could conclude from this post that you have little chance of successfully completing a multi-leg rail journey without a Smartphone.

I'd like you to explain how you came to that conclusion if you dont mind?

The comment I made was to suggest to the OP that himself or his wife, if they have the technology at their disposal, that they use an "APP" to help in this sort of scenario in the future. I was trying to highlight that technology is available to allow you to view this sort of information on your phone. Have you ever thought that some people might think that departure information is only available within the relevant stations?

Simply checking the departure board at York would have been no help in this instance as the train arriving into Stevenage leaves York at 18:29 and arrives at 20:20, the next train leaving York 26 minutes later arrives at Stevenage just 3 minutes later.

I'd assume that most of the general public wouldn't expect a journey on one East Coast train to take 23 minutes less than another journey with the same provider.

I don't really need to explain my comments further...