• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Airport Expansion in South East England

Status
Not open for further replies.

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
It isn't that simple.


I think people realise that, but It's an option being presented and I really don't think it would be presented unless it offered an overall increase in performance.

As I alluded to unthread, the lengthened runway option will add capacity, but probably not as much capacity as a third runway because of the safety issues related to landing an aircraft behind another that's about to take off - the capacity gains may well come from the increased flexibility rather than outright numbers. Whilst it is normal to see aircraft buzzing in at 90 second intervals at peak, that doesn't happen all the time. I seem to recall that there is a period following a takeoff that another aircraft cannot land because of the wash from the engines, this could be mitigated by displacing the wash to a place that doesn't impact on the following aircraft landing, or especially the airspace required following an aborted landing - i.e. The space above the extended runway.

I'm not aware of anywhere else this has been done, but it's extremely unlikely that Heathrow would spend £Billions on lengthening the North runway and adding extra passenger facilities without first proving the concept to the relevant aviation authorities.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
But it would be two runways, that happen to be end on end, with a suitably large safety gap between them.

But wouldn't it have to be a pretty large gap in between the runways? Two aircraft pointing and possibly moving in the same direction one behind the other, one slow, heavy and full of fuel, the other landing presumably behind it lighter but moving faster. This is different to two planes on parallel runways.

Two parallel runways you could run simultaneously. Two linear aligned runways you could end up with a plane unable to start its take off run with one behind it unable to stop. You could also end up with a plane starting its take off roll and one coming in behind needing to do go around. Two runways you can't use at the same time basically.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
But wouldn't it have to be a pretty large gap in between the runways? Two aircraft pointing and possibly moving in the same direction one behind the other, one slow, heavy and full of fuel, the other landing presumably behind it lighter but moving faster. This is different to two planes on parallel runways.


See above. There's a minimum time between aircraft in the same horizontal path on the same runway, moving the vertical path to enable two runways in the same horizontal path opens up the fourth dimension... time ! Where previously you could land an aircraft every 90 seconds, you will be able to accommodate (for example) an aircraft landing and one taking off in (for example) 120 seconds - boosting capacity at peak times.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But wouldn't it have to be a pretty large gap in between the runways? Two aircraft pointing and possibly moving in the same direction one behind the other, one slow, heavy and full of fuel, the other landing presumably behind it lighter but moving faster. This is different to two planes on parallel runways.

At a single runway airport (e.g. Gatwick in any meaningful sense) you have that anyway. It's just a case of spacing.

If the two aircraft get too[1] close together, the back one goes around and tries again. It's not common, though - in 2 years of weekly Luton-Geneva and back I had it precisely once. It was quite exciting suddenly getting full power and a hard pull up and right.

[1] In aviation terms, "not very close" is "too close" - this is pretty much never a few metres, normally it's hundreds.
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
....In aviation terms, "not very close" is "too close" - this is pretty much never a few metres, normally it's hundreds.

In the air, reduced down to a minimum of 3 nautical miles (close in to airports - in layman's terms), which may be reduced between successive aircraft on final approach to a runway (2.5nm minimum or minimum time separation where allowed).
Vortex wake separation criteria may require wider spacing e.g. 5 miles.

Separation between a landing aircraft performing a go around and a departing aircraft, may be fully or partially covered by the missed approach procedure, however the controller(s) must endeavour to establish a minimum of 3nm separation between the subject aircraft as soon as is safely possible.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
See above. There's a minimum time between aircraft in the same horizontal path on the same runway, moving the vertical path to enable two runways in the same horizontal path opens up the fourth dimension... time ! Where previously you could land an aircraft every 90 seconds, you will be able to accommodate (for example) an aircraft landing and one taking off in (for example) 120 seconds - boosting capacity at peak times.

I get what you are saying and I don't think I am putting my thoughts in to words very well. Say you had a hugely long runway with some aircraft starting their take of roll from the middle and others landing behind and ending their landing roll towards the middle surely you couldn't have one lining up to take off as another was touching down further behind it.
 

freetoview33

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
3,721
Location
West of England
I get what you are saying and I don't think I am putting my thoughts in to words very well. Say you had a hugely long runway with some aircraft starting their take of roll from the middle and others landing behind and ending their landing roll towards the middle surely you couldn't have one lining up to take off as another was touching down further behind it.

I can understand how it would allow takeoff/landings closer together but still think it would be a lot of money for little improvement versus other options
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
I get what you are saying and I don't think I am putting my thoughts in to words very well. Say you had a hugely long runway with some aircraft starting their take of roll from the middle and others landing behind and ending their landing roll towards the middle surely you couldn't have one lining up to take off as another was touching down further behind it.


It's complex I'm sure, but as I said above, it wouldn't be proposed if there wasn't some gains to be made in aircraft capacity at peak. Simplistically I'd expect the lengthened runway to perform less well than a third parallel runway, but there must be a balancing point where a lengthened runway gives benefit... What I don't know is if that's 5%, 20%, 50% or 95% worth of benefit.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
In the air, reduced down to a minimum of 3 nautical miles (close in to airports - in layman's terms), which may be reduced between successive aircraft on final approach to a runway (2.5nm minimum or minimum time separation where allowed).
Vortex wake separation criteria may require wider spacing e.g. 5 miles.

Separation between a landing aircraft performing a go around and a departing aircraft, may be fully or partially covered by the missed approach procedure, however the controller(s) must endeavour to establish a minimum of 3nm separation between the subject aircraft as soon as is safely possible.

To add to that, the gap is varied with the realtive size/weight of following aircraft. For example, a series of A320/B737 aircraft would have similar gaps between them. But a following A330/B767 could fly closer, whereas the reverse situation of a smaller aircraft following a larger type would require a larger gap as the larger vortices would have a bigger impact on it.
At a busy airport, the controllers can order planes on final approach in increasing sizes and then have a larger gap after the last, e.g. a 747 to allow the vortices to subside. I believe a similar routine is practiced on takeoff but different rates of climb can complicate matters.
With a serial runway layout, they can be slightly offset or angled to avoid collisions with a simple overrun. Madrid Barajas has a 45 deg angle, but overruns could send planes through the taxi/queue roads.
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
To add to that, the gap is varied with the realtive size/weight of following aircraft. For example, a series of A320/B737 aircraft would have similar gaps between them. But a following A330/B767 could fly closer, whereas the reverse situation of a smaller aircraft following a larger type would require a larger gap as the larger vortices would have a bigger impact on it......

Basically correct except that an A330/B767 (heavy) following an A320/B737 (medium/ UK lower medium) requires the same spacing as between successive A320/B737 (M/LM) sized a/c.
The spacings that I mentioned earlier are the minimum and you are correct that Wake Vortex separations and aircraft speed (for very slow e.g. small prop) may increase the required spacing between successive landing aircraft.

....I believe a similar routine is practiced on takeoff but different rates of climb can complicate matters......

Significant speed differentials between successive departing a/c may come into play, but most important is whether the aircraft are following different, diverging departure routes or the same departure route immediately after take-off (you can depart more aircraft when alternating their departure routes immediately after take-off).
Sometimes temporary en-route restrictions result in increased or reduced spacing between aircraft following the same departure route.
Over riding this is the wake turbulence separation.
It results in a complicated situation which is skilfully managed by ATC, to obtain the maximum safe utilisation of the runway.
 
Last edited:

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
One of the various plans- and one submitted by the Mayor of London's office- was for a four-runway airport to be built north of the current Stansted, with on each side of the central terminal area two runways in a line
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
One of the various plans- and one submitted by the Mayor of London's office- was for a four-runway airport to be built north of the current Stansted, with on each side of the central terminal area two runways in a line

It was a similar plan to the one submitted by Stansted's owners, Manchester Airport Group, for a new 4 runway airport using the existing runway as one of the 4.

http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/LongTermCapacity/$file/Long+Term+Capacity+Options.pdf
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,397
Location
0035
The Davies Commission will report tomorrow apparently.
 

freetoview33

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
3,721
Location
West of England
The Davies Commission will report tomorrow apparently.

"The Airports Commission will recommend Heathrow as the preferred site for London's new runway, sources have told the BBC.
But while backing Heathrow, it may also leave the door open for alternative expansion at Gatwick."

So basically we could still end up with both! And to be fair this whole process has got us no where new!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It depends if Heathrow goes with.

Plan A: Expand a current runway
Plan B: Build the shorter Northern Runway, I wonder how longer before a plane accidentally lands on the M4!
Plan C: (Stanwell) South Western full size runway. (But there would be massive costs of relocating Londons water supply!)

I personally think Plan C is the best option for Heathrow.

This would allow for allow for Terminal 4 to be rebuilt and a new terminal 1,3 or 6
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,397
Location
0035
Plan A: Expand a current runway
Plan B: Build the shorter Northern Runway, I wonder how longer before a plane accidentally lands on the M4!
Plan C: (Stanwell) South Western full size runway. (But there would be massive costs of relocating Londons water supply!)

I thought the shortlisted options were
A: Gatwick south runway
B: Heathrow third runway to the north west of current northern runway
C: "Heathrow Hub" northern runway extension

In my opinion, expansion at Heathrow is the only sensible option. But politically unacceptable so I wonder if Gatwick will happen instead.
 

freetoview33

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
3,721
Location
West of England
I thought the shortlisted options were
A: Gatwick south runway
B: Heathrow third runway to the north west of current northern runway
C: "Heathrow Hub" northern runway extension

In my opinion, expansion at Heathrow is the only sensible option. But politically unacceptable so I wonder if Gatwick will happen instead.

Well! Really it was Gatwick or Heathrow. And there was the 3rd Heathrow option of a full size South West runway as far as I know the plan for North West runway would not be a full length one. Around 6000 to 7000ft .
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
Plan C: (Stanwell) South Western full size runway. (But there would be massive costs of relocating Londons water supply!)


Could a new south western runway be built on a viaduct - thinking a Madeira style runway - the water supply stays underneath ?
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
Could a new south western runway be built on a viaduct - thinking a Madeira style runway - the water supply stays underneath ?

The "viaduct", as you put it, would have to be very wide to accommodate the mandatory safety over-run area either side of the runway.

Another issue would be pollution.
Airport surface drainage has to go into special waste water storage reservoirs before decontamination is carried out, as it isn't possible to put it into the sewerage system.
With a public water supply underneath, the problems would be horrendous.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,272
Location
St Albans
Being reported now that Heathrow it is

That's just the report. Cameron is likely to bow to the greater weight of West London MPs complaints than those in a couple of West Sussex constituencies.

This may at last, signal the start of improvements to the BML north of Gatwick.
 
Last edited:

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
That's just the report. Cameron is likely to bow to the greater weight of West London MPs complaints than those in a couple of West Sussex constituencies.

This may at last, signal the start of improvements to the BML north of Gatwick.

What's the point in the study if he is just going to cave in to the whims of a few West London MPs, just seems like a utter waste of taxpayers money.

The study clearly recommends Heathrow so he ought grow some balls and go with the recommended option and damn the few NIMBY MPs!
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
The "viaduct", as you put it, would have to be very wide to accommodate the mandatory safety over-run area either side of the runway.

Could be, but it's not insurmountable - are you familiar with the "viaduct" at Madeira - it has run off areas either side - I doubt they are suitable for very large aircraft, but it demonstrates the concept.


Another issue would be pollution. Airport surface drainage has to go into special waste water storage reservoirs before decontamination is carried out, as it isn't possible to put it into the sewerage system.

With a public water supply underneath, the problems would be horrendous.


Always with the problems ;) we deal with these problems on a regular basis you know - civil engineering is fun when it's difficult !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Half hearted report conclusion in my eyes - Boris Island was always a none event, wrong place, huge environmental impact, moving 100,000 workers across London, supporting businesses having to relocated etc.

Recommendation should have been for approval in principle for four runways at Heathrow as a let's get it done now for the next 100 years investment. Fast track a second runway at Gatwick as it has least issues against it, whilst pushing forward the planning processes for runway three at Heathrow with a view to getting on with runway four in 10-15 years from now if the need continues.

Meanwhile, offer incentives for expansion at Manchester as the UK's second global hub airport.
 

zoneking

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
269
That's just the report. Cameron is likely to bow to the greater weight of West London MPs complaints than those in a couple of West Sussex constituencies.

This may at last, signal the start of improvements to the BML north of Gatwick.

Gatwick affects a lot more than West Sussex. A large part of Surrey and Kent are also affected by Gatwick. Gatwick is in the wrong place for a UK national hub. Improve rail links to Stansted and increase the use of existing capacity there.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
Yup, having read the news reports more now, it seems that rather than deliver a definitive technocratic answer that massively favours one option (which is what the politicians wanted), the assessment is that either would work, Heathrow would work a bit better, but batting it firmly back to the politicians.

It's been noted that compared to the opposition from (tory* ) MPs from constituencies that would be adversely affected by noise from a Heathrow 3rd runway, the (tory) MPs representing the constituencies affected by Gatwick have been pretty much silent. Follow the politics!

*important this, to note that it is Tories, and not Labour/Lib Dem/Green politicians, that are key to this whole thing.
 
Last edited:

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
It's been noted that compared to the opposition from (tory* ) MPs from constituencies that would be adversely affected by noise from a Heathrow 3rd runway, the (tory) MPs representing the constituencies affected by Gatwick have been pretty much silent. Follow the politics!

The Tory PM for Crawley was not afraid to defy the government on same sex marriage and on Europe, but appeared to be indifferent to Gatwick expansion.

http://www.henrysmith.info/content/gatwick-airport

Until yesterday...

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2015-06-30/gatwick-would-be-the-wrong-choice-mp/

but by then it was already known what the Davies Commission was going to say. It is fair to say, though, that the immediate locality around Gatwick would be relatively unscathed by a second runway, other than increased pressure on infrastructure. Smith's interview showed him to be more worried about inward migration than noise. Noise from planes to and from Gatwick aircraft is more acutely felt by villages quite distant from the airport.
 
Last edited:

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,090
Those 'West London' MPs mentioned are also from S.W.London and Berkshire, and include the Home Secretary, the Defence Secretary, the Secretary of State for International Development, the current Mayor of London and the would-be Mayor of London, the ex non-dom Goldsmith. The Gatwick naysayers may just include Osborne's bagcarrier Michael Gove. The decision, when made, will be entirely a political one and which one is opted for will show which of Osborne, May and Johnson B. may be coronated in due course. If Goldsmith resigns, is put up for the mayoralty and then wins it partly on an anti Heathrow ticket then Heathrow is dead in the water, effectively. Expect Gatwick as the 'safe' option, until it registers that a whole new pair of rail lines will have to be built as an absolute minimum between Gatwick and somewhere approaching central London. Perhaps BOris Island in't such a bad idea after all!!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,929
Location
Nottingham
Can someone explain why Boris Island would solve the noise problem, which appears to be Boris's chief concern about Heathrow?

The various Thames Estuary sites are a bit further east of London than Heathrow is west, but not much. In either case an east-west runway orientation means that planes will fly over central London, but in the case of Boris Island they will more often be taking off and therefore making more noise, as the wind is more often westerly.

Is this idea just a case of moving the noise out of the affluent suburbs of west London and dumping it on the less blessed communities to the east?
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
Does anybody know the % of traffic that uses Heathrow as a hub? Are the majority of passengers using Heathrow for travelling point to point or indeed another hub in another continent? I am trying to asses whether current or future traffic patterns can be serviced by two airports which from a transport point of view are not well connected to each other. Do passengers want to use Gatwick? Or is Gatwick just a larger version of East Midlands?
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
Can someone explain why Boris Island would solve the noise problem, which appears to be Boris's chief concern about Heathrow?

The various Thames Estuary sites are a bit further east of London than Heathrow is west, but not much.....

As you point out, "Boris Island" has become a euphemism for several proposed sites in the Thames Estuary, ranging from two different off-shore island sites (the actual "Boris Island" proposals), to the Isle of Grain site proposed by the Sir Norman Foster Group, which latterly gained the support of the Mayor of London, replacing his own support for the "Boris Island" idea.


....In either case an east-west runway orientation means that planes will fly over central London, but in the case of Boris Island they will more often be taking off and therefore making more noise, as the wind is more often westerly.

It would actually be the reverse effect on London itself.

The routes that departing aircraft follow immediately after take-off, are more widely dispersed than the final approach path to a runway, which is usually the extended centreline of the landing runway.
The reasons for the different departure routes are that aircraft are heading out in different directions towards their various destinations and that dispersion allows far more departure movements to take place off the runway than could be accommodated if the aircraft were all following the same route.
The departing aircraft follow set Standard instrument Departure routes, which also incorporate Noise Preferential Routes for the first few miles until the aircraft are above a specified minimum altitude. These various departure routes feed into the en-route airway/air route structure.

Discounting the proposed off-shore sites and looking at the more realistic IOG proposal...

With the more common westerly (wind) orientation, the various departure routes from the IOG site could and would be arranged to avoid most of London, both geographically and below a certain altitude overhead. Certainly, central London would not see any aircraft overhead at the altitudes currently experienced with aircraft either landing or taking-off from Heathrow.
The eastern fringes (east of the M25 and the outlying areas to east and SE) of London would however be affected and it's likely much traffic would be routed over outer south London.

What would be unavoidable, is that a whole swathe of towns and built-up areas in SW Essex (north of the Thames corridor) and a number of more separated towns and settlements south of the river, would be affected by noise from those departing aircraft.
A mitigating factor, is that with new airspace arrangements designed for such a new airport, faster, less constrained climb profiles for departing aircraft could be accommodated, thus reducing the size of the area most affected by aircraft noise.

In the case of the less common easterly operations, we see a very different scenario.
Note that the IOG proposal, as with all the green field proposals, is for a 4 runway airport.
The likely mode of operation will be the simultaneous use two runways for arrivals and two for departures.
This will mean parallel approach paths to the two landing runways, resulting in a wide swathe of E and SE London and the Thames corridor (from just east of a line roughly from Barking to Sidcup, outwards towards the IOG) being underneath or in affected areas either side of the centrelines of the proposed runways.
Not only that, aircraft will also have to be fed into those approach paths and will therefore be flying low over SW Essex and NW Kent.


For guidance..... although the easterly orientation accounts for just over 30% of operations at Heathrow, that is still a significant proportion of time and number of aircraft movements.
The easterly operations also predominate at varying times of the year, due to the weather.
For example...
The first 6 months of 2010 - average 44.2% easterly operation (including February 48% and May 54%).
March and April 2011 - 57% & 52% respectively, easterly operation. (set against the average for the first 10 months of 2011 at 30.1%).
April and June 2014 - 45% & 40% respectively.
September and November 2014 - 53% for both.
March and April 2015 - 38% & 47% respectively.

It is often the case that continuos easterly operations lasts for days or even a couple of weeks at a time.
The same is likely to apply to an airport built on the IOG.


Is this idea just a case of moving the noise out of the affluent suburbs of west London and dumping it on the less blessed communities to the east?

Personally, I believe most of the politicians really don't understand the current impacts, let alone the potential impact of a new site.


 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top