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Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line

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daodao

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Would not the simplest solution be to suspend the rail service until the Bletchley-Bicester line has been re-opened for passenger trains, and then re-open the line, but only with selected stations of those that currently exist.
 
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zwk500

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Would not the simplest solution be to suspend the rail service until the Bletchley-Bicester line has been re-opened for passenger trains, and then re-open the line, but only with selected stations of those that currently exist.
LNWR have a contract with the DfT saying they must run a service today, so the DfT would need to approve the modification of the service specification. EWR's rebuild of the Marston Vale is a lot further down the road than the initial opening of Bletchley-Bicester, so you'd be closing the MV for about 5 years minimum.
Options are either to strike a deal with the administrators to re-start the contract, purchase the contract and maintenance teams from Vivarail and bring it in-house (but this may need to wait until liquidation is confirmed), for another company to purchase Vivarail outright, or to secure alternative traction and serve the stations you can while running taxis for the stations/PRM passengers you can't.
 

zwk500

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Providing the DfT agree, LNWR could bustitute it long-term until the contract can be renegotiated/cancelled.
True, but this is a line that has been long term bustituted for years during the 230 problems and level crossing failures. Mind you, it isn't electoraly significant so the dft could say yes.
Bit of a waste of the maintenance money though.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Providing the DfT agree, LNWR could bustitute it long-term until the contract can be renegotiated/cancelled.
Did someone mention Barlaston & Wedgwood?
6,770 days and counting.
Stations rather than a whole line though.
 

zwk500

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Did someone mention Barlaston & Wedgwood?
6,770 days and counting.
Stations rather than a whole line though.
Also stations that don't really serve anything. The Marston Vale, whilst not exactly Thameslink, is still a well-used line.
 

daodao

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Also stations that don't really serve anything. The Marston Vale, whilst not exactly Thameslink, is still a well-used line.
Barlaston is a village with a population of about 3000, and Wedgwood is sited close to the Wedgwood Factory complex and visitor centre, with housing nearby. I am not necessarily advocating re-opening these 2 stations, but it is incorrect to state they "don't really serve anything.", a statement that is applicable to several of the stations on the Bedford-Bletchley line.
 

zwk500

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Barlaston is a village with a population of about 3000, and Wedgwood is sited close to the Wedgwood Factory complex and visitor centre, with housing nearby. I am not necessarily advocating re-opening these 2 stations, but it is incorrect to state they "don't really serve anything.", a statement that is applicable to several of the stations on the Bedford-Bletchley line.
But the context is also important here. The MV is a self-contained branch line for people travelling either to London or the end points of the line. Barlaston and Wedgwood are on a line where a slow train has a massive penalty to passenger traffic on the London-Manchester route. You're also talking about bussing passengers from 2 stations just up the line, rather than the MV where the road access to the stations is indirect and remote from the settlements.

And if you go through them, only Millbrook doesn't really serve anything and Kempston Hardwick only really serves a hamlet (at the moment). Ridgemont serves the distribution centre, comparable to Wedgwood and the rest serve villages bigger than Barlaston or suburbs of MK.

When EWR comes along, I do support rationalisation of the MV line, but it's also isn't a quick solution and doesn't resolve the current problem.
 

Baxenden Bank

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My point was to highlight the length of time that bustitution has been in operation, without resolution, not the merits of station A over station B.
 

A S Leib

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Barlaston is a village with a population of about 3000, and Wedgwood is sited close to the Wedgwood Factory complex and visitor centre, with housing nearby. I am not necessarily advocating re-opening these 2 stations, but it is incorrect to state they "don't really serve anything.", a statement that is applicable to several of the stations on the Bedford-Bletchley line.
Fenny Stratford - ~10,000 people within 2 km
Bow Brickhill - ~4,000 within 2 km
Woburn Sands - ~9,000 within 2 km
Aspley Guise - ~5,000 within 2 km
Ridgmont - tiny population (nice station, but I don't think there's much which couldn't be moved)
Lidlington - ~1,500
Millbrook - ~4,000
Stewartby ~4,000
Kempston Hardwick - ~4,000
Bedford St. John's - ~53,000 within 2 km

So excluding Bedford St. John's and accounting for overlapping areas, around 35,000 people live within 2 km of one of the stations. I wouldn't be massively surprised if Ridgmont or Lidlington went during major works, but I wouldn't say that any of the Marston Vale stations don't rally serve anything.
 

zwk500

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My point was to highlight the length of time that bustitution has been in operation, without resolution, not the merits of station A over station B.
But the context is important. Nobody would be suggesting a permanent bus replacement service between Gatwick Airport and Brighton, for instance. The Marston Vale was frequently bustituted when the 230s were bedding in, and also frequently bustituted when the Level Crossings were failing very often. If bustituting was a long-term viable plan, wouldn't LNWR have just chucked in the towel at that point and just pulled the 230s? The fact they persisted in getting trains running again suggests buses were not seen as a long-term option.
 

A0wen

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True, but this is a line that has been long term bustituted for years during the 230 problems and level crossing failures. Mind you, it isn't electoraly significant so the dft could say yes.
Bit of a waste of the maintenance money though.

TBF most of the bustitution was during the Covid pandemic because crew were reassigned to other duties - but passenger numbers were well down at that time as well.
 

Bletchleyite

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Barlaston is a village with a population of about 3000, and Wedgwood is sited close to the Wedgwood Factory complex and visitor centre, with housing nearby. I am not necessarily advocating re-opening these 2 stations, but it is incorrect to state they "don't really serve anything.", a statement that is applicable to several of the stations on the Bedford-Bletchley line.

Though housing development continues apace and usage is growing at several of them. The 5 station proposal (or a modified version of it) with e.g. eco towns centred on the new stations would make it more of a suburban service than a rural branch line and up numbers considerably.
 

A S Leib

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Though housing development continues apace and usage is growing at several of them. The 5 station proposal (or a modified version of it) with e.g. eco towns centred on the new stations would make it more of a suburban service than a rural branch line and up numbers considerably.
And Bletchley / Milton Keynes presumably will want to look for more room for people at some point; the built-up area's gone up from 180,000 in 2001 to 255,000 last year, with plans to get up to 400,000 by 2050. Even with that population it wouldn't be as dense as Dartford, Sheffield and Woking are now, but it would still make sense to build large parts of the new housing where there's already transport links. (Looking on a map the area immediately north of Wolverton also seems to be quite empty - can that be developed a lot further?)
 

zwk500

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And Bletchley / Milton Keynes presumably will want to look for more room for people at some point; the built-up area's gone up from 180,000 in 2001 to 255,000 last year, with plans to get up to 400,000 by 2050. Even with that population it wouldn't be as dense as Dartford, Sheffield and Woking are now, but it would still make sense to build large parts of the new housing where there's already transport links.
MK is famously not dense at all, and arguably would be better developed by densification than greenfield development, but that's politically impossible.
(Looking on a map the area immediately north of Wolverton also seems to be quite empty - can that be developed a lot further?)
Look a little closer! North of Wolverton is the floodplain of the River Great Ouse, and believe me it's all needed. I've stood on the Iron Trunk aquaduct and not been able to see any dry land in the valley at all. Of course, this hasn't stopped people proposing to infill between Wolverton and Newport Pagnell with another town-sized development, including an extra Motorway junction.
 

Bletchleyite

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MK is famously not dense at all, and arguably would be better developed by densification than greenfield development, but that's politically impossible.

I don't agree. Not because a denser development would be bad, but because it would deliver fewer new homes than building on new sites (because you would be demolishing existing ones), of which some are brownfield e.g. around Kempston Hardwick.

It would also be crushingly expensive to purchase existing homes to redevelop.

There are a few estates where this might be feasible where the housing stock is in poor condition - the Lakes, Netherfield, Tinkers Bridge and Beanhill are the obvious ones - but not most of the rest of the city where the stock is generally newish, in good condition and of increasingly high value.
 

zwk500

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I don't agree. Not because a denser development would be bad, but because it would deliver fewer new homes than building on new sites (because you would be demolishing existing ones), of which some are brownfield e.g. around Kempston Hardwick.

It would also be crushingly expensive to purchase existing homes to redevelop.

There are a few estates where this might be feasible where the housing stock is in poor condition - the Lakes, Netherfield, Tinkers Bridge and Beanhill are the obvious ones - but not most of the rest of the city where the stock is generally newish, in good condition and of increasingly high value.
I did say it'd never happen.
The suitability of development for MK is a different question, so I'll just leave it to say that the proposed developments along this corridor, Especially Stewartby and Wixams, will be a game changer for the Marston Vale that means a bus replacement is not a long-term viable option.
 

Hadders

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Any Pacers still around? They would be ideal for the Martson Vale.
 

A0wen

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Any Pacers still around? They would be ideal for the Martson Vale.

There are a few scattered around some heritage railways awaiting use.

But if 142s are an option, then why not just do proper bustitution ? At least that would be done with a bus design from this century rather than the last.....
 

Hadders

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There are a few scattered around some heritage railways awaiting use.

But if 142s are an option, then why not just do proper bustitution ? At least that would be done with a bus design from this century rather than the last.....
A Pacer would be faster than a bus.
 

Kilopylae

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But if 142s are an option, then why not just do proper bustitution ? At least that would be done with a bus design from this century rather than the last.....
My experience is mostly with 143s to be fair but they still enjoy most of the advantages of trains over buses (speed, low of likelihood of being left stranded with no rights, and relative comfort)
 

mike57

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There are a few scattered around some heritage railways awaiting use.
Is there anything in the heritage sector that could be drafted in short term to keep things running while a long term solution is delivered. For most heritage railways apart from Santa specials, which tend to steam hauled and not what I had in mind, its the quiet season, so a short term arrangement for 2-3 months.

With respect to PRM compliance surely just provide taxis in the short term, better than just shutting the whole thing down. I agree that adequate provision should be made for disabled people, but sometimes we 'throw the baby out with the bath water' where a temporary solution to an unforseen problem is better for 95% or more of the population rather than waiting for a perfect solution which is PRM compliant.
 

A0wen

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A Pacer would be faster than a bus.

Whilst true, cost and viability has to enter the discussion - the rail industry is getting rid of the Pacers so bringing them back isn't a sensible solution - equally they are completely unfamiliar for LNW's train crew so incur all the training costs.

Speed apart, a modern bus or coach (which may well be accessible) is probably the most cost effective solution in the short to medium term. Perhaps the one improvement would be to offer ticket acceptance on the Stagecoach X5 between MKC and Bedford for those who are making end to end journeys.
 

hooverboy

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A Pacer would be faster than a bus.
What about a 2 car 755?
There's only doors are in the centre of the carriage,so could accommodate a small platform with no need for SDO.
At a rough guess the doors would be sited at 11m and 38m.
 

ashkeba

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Is there anything in the heritage sector that could be drafted in short term to keep things running while a long term solution is delivered. For most heritage railways apart from Santa specials, which tend to steam hauled and not what I had in mind, its the quiet season, so a short term arrangement for 2-3 months.

With respect to PRM compliance surely just provide taxis in the short term, better than just shutting the whole thing down. I agree that adequate provision should be made for disabled people, but sometimes we 'throw the baby out with the bath water' where a temporary solution to an unforseen problem is better for 95% or more of the population rather than waiting for a perfect solution which is PRM compliant.
PRM Pacer 144012 is stored by Network Rail, isn't it? But that is the microest fleet, of 1.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there anything in the heritage sector that could be drafted in short term to keep things running while a long term solution is delivered. For most heritage railways apart from Santa specials, which tend to steam hauled and not what I had in mind, its the quiet season, so a short term arrangement for 2-3 months.

With respect to PRM compliance surely just provide taxis in the short term, better than just shutting the whole thing down. I agree that adequate provision should be made for disabled people, but sometimes we 'throw the baby out with the bath water' where a temporary solution to an unforseen problem is better for 95% or more of the population rather than waiting for a perfect solution which is PRM compliant.

I saw the coach and minibus in use a few days back - it didn't appear to be an accessible coach, and I'm not sure the all stops minibus was either. I guess Centrebus couldn't do the usual low floor single deckers at short notice, though I expect that will return once they can.

PRM Pacer 144012 is stored by Network Rail, isn't it? But that is the microest fleet, of 1.

A single unit service could capture most of the business (what business there is) if effort was put into the timetable rather than just running a flat 0.5tph. It did during most of COVID, the buses were largely empty. But I don't think it's practical to bring in a random unit without anyone trained to drive it, and the classic substitute of a pair of locos and two coaches wouldn't work because of the platform lengths and inability to do "SDO" using central door locking (if I recall) - a 2x23m unit I worked out above probably could be made to work, but not something about 80m long.
 

SuperLuke2334

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PRM Pacer 144012 is stored by Network Rail, isn't it? But that is the microest fleet, of 1.
I believe that one is stored at Worksop but I may be wrong. It probably won't be in the best condition for service if it still is around.
 

Haywain

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Ridgmont - tiny population (nice station, but I don't think there's much which couldn't be moved)
Ridgmont station is right next door to a giant Amazon warehouse, which probably contributes to the number of users of the station. In terms of usage, the latest ORR figures show that it is not right at the bottom end in usage terms, with 10,600 entries and exits from April 2021 to March 2022, making it the fifth ranked station for usage on the line.

For comparison the full figures for the line are as follows:
Fenny Stratford - 7,230
Bow Brickhill - 17,046
Woburn Sands - 19,718
Aspley Guise - 4,146
Ridgmont - 10,604
Lidlington - 9,544
Millbrook - 3,618
Stewartby - 76,872
Kempston Hardwick - 3,154
Bedford St. John's - 108,408
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm amazed Stewartby is that high - what is most of the usage there driven by? Schoolkids?

Similarly I'm surprised about Bow Brickhill - more using it for Tilbrook industry than I thought?
 

Haywain

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I'm amazed Stewartby is that high - what is most of the usage there driven by? Schoolkids?
No idea, but the figures show that 61,308 of the entries/exits are using season tickets. There's no indication in the figures of a child/adult split that I can see.

Similarly I'm surprised about Bow Brickhill - more using it for Tilbrook industry than I thought?
Again, no knowledge - is Tilbrook the industrial park close by? Season tickets make up 9,252 of the total.
 
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