Amended timetable for Govia Thameslink Railway services on Brighton mainline

[tsr]

Some very miffed off folks around, and not helped by the lack of info, esp as we are right in the middle of a comms change for front line staff. (I've not had a work phone for over 4 months now, only my own i-phone and a free app!!) Our Blackberrys are going and being replaced with some android phone, but the swap is going a lot slower than some think and they turned off the Blackberry system on thur thinking we all had our new phones.

The comms situation is not ideal, though I can confirm the BlackBerry email systems were not turned off on Thursday for everyone - maybe just your depot. Also the new phones are Microsoft Lumia handsets (and back up your contacts before you change over to them, as from what I understand from speaking to others, there've been issues with that!). They're actually not bad pieces of kit but for some people it will be a learning curve.

Personally I use a combination of personal and official systems for rail info at work, with sussextrains.co.uk, OpenTrainTimes and RTT feeding a lot of my announcements and updates for passengers. However, I've recently found the official BlackBerry internal NRE app to actually start working quite well again for things like delays and platform numbers, after a period where it seemed to be absolutely useless, so it'll be a shame if that goes forever.

 

[sarahj]

The comms situation is not ideal, though I can confirm the BlackBerry email systems were not turned off on Thursday for everyone - maybe just your depot. Also the new phones are Microsoft Lumia handsets (and back up your contacts before you change over to them, as from what I understand from speaking to others, there've been issues with that!). They're actually not bad pieces of kit but for some people it will be a learning curve.

Personally I use a combination of personal and official systems for rail info at work, with sussextrains.co.uk, OpenTrainTimes and RTT feeding a lot of my announcements and updates for passengers. However, I've recently found the official BlackBerry internal NRE app to actually start working quite well again for things like delays and platform numbers, after a period where it seemed to be absolutely useless, so it'll be a shame if that goes forever.

I wish I could back up my contacts, I had built up a great set of numbers and e-mails for places around the system, but my Blackberry went in for repair in July and I've not seen it since. for some reason as well, my O2 service on my own i-phone wont let me access internal BR numbers, (we have tried everything), so I'm stuck with two numbers on my phone. Control sussex and PM Brighton, for which I have external numbers for. Oh and I've been told Southern (or whatever) will not refund me if I go over my data limits while checking for train running info.

 

[asylumxl]

The comms situation is not ideal, though I can confirm the BlackBerry email systems were not turned off on Thursday for everyone - maybe just your depot. Also the new phones are Microsoft Lumia handsets (and back up your contacts before you change over to them, as from what I understand from speaking to others, there've been issues with that!). They're actually not bad pieces of kit but for some people it will be a learning curve.

By default Microsoft Lumias should have an app called "Transfer My Data". While I never had a need for it, I have found it is very straight forward to use and supports a wide range of phones. If my Mum could figure it out, other people should be just fine .

 

[infobleep]

Last week in the last few days we were hit by:

Thur. Body on the line between Three Bridges and Horsham
Fri. TL lost it's shoes near Three Bridges
Then OHLE issues near St panckaes
Then an 'incident at East Croydon, which involved the police at around 16.00 and trains stopped trashed the first part of the evening rush hour. I was working arun valley trains and a Sou came in almost 40 mins late and terminated Cch after running fast and not splitting HRH to BAA, then my PMS came in almost 30 mins down. We did split (rear stopper portion was packed) and ended up terminating at Fratton, but made it almost right time back to Brighton.
and then 'signalling' issues near Wiveslfield.

Some very miffed off folks around, and not helped by the lack of info, esp as we are right in the middle of a comms change for front line staff. (I've not had a work phone for over 4 months now, only my own i-phone and a free app!!) Our Blackberrys are going and being replaced with some android phone, but the swap is going a lot slower than some think and they turned off the Blackberry system on thur thinking we all had our new phones.

You missed out the signalling problems at Victoria station on Friday night. But then there have been so many incidents going on, trying to remember them all must be something.

That evening I got to Clapham Junction and it said next train to Hove was 8.52 and Haywards Heath was 8.53. It was 8.50 and on the platform was the 8.30 to East Grinstead.

Someone was telling everyone,via the tannoy, to get this train and change at East Croydon.

At Clapham Junction or East Croydon, I saw that there was signalling issues at Wivelsfield. I did wonder why this was affecting East Grinstead trains so much. At Croydon I got in 21.05. At 21.06 I saw that their was a Brighton train at 21.07. Running across the slippery footbridge I got to the platform and no train but one was pulling into platform 4, this being the 21.08, so up to the footbridge again.

Managed to get on it in time and it then waited until a Gatwick Express come passed some 3-4 minutes later. Turns out the 20.53 was cancelled. Not sure which train was the 20.52 to Hove and if that ever ran.

Eventually reached Haywards Heath and I saw on the departure board problems at St Pancras. Just at this point the station announcer mentioned problems at Victoria.

There were no announcements surrounding the delays on the trains but if the blackberrys were still switched off that might explain why.

EDIT: I see they weren't switched off everywhere so I don't know the reasons for no announcements. The East Grinstead train had a guard but he just made regular announcements.

 

[zoneking]

I have just looked at the timetable for my local station (Caterham), and, not surprisingly, it has gone downhill. All off peak services (xx.09, xx.26, xx.39. xx.56) have been retimed to start 2 minutes earlier. But they just spend an extra 2 minutes at Purley and depart Purley at the same time as before (In fact, the xx.07 and xx.37 depart Purley a minute later than before - an extra 3 minutes delay). The peak joiners maintain the extra 3 minutes early departure time, which is entirely unnecessary. Peak-time delays are caused by the South Croydon-East Croydon platform 4 bottleneck, or Windmill Bridge Junction hold-ups. What has happened to progress on the railways?

 

[infobleep]

I have just looked at the timetable for my local station (Caterham), and, not surprisingly, it has gone downhill. All off peak services (xx.09, xx.26, xx.39. xx.56) have been retimed to start 2 minutes earlier. But they just spend an extra 2 minutes at Purley and depart Purley at the same time as before. The peak splitters maintain the extra 3 minutes early departure time, which is entirely unnecessary. Peak-time delays are caused by the South Croydon-East Croydon platform 4 bottleneck, or Windmill Bridge Junction hold-ups. What has happened to progress on the railways?

So how come they are not delayed at platform 4 in the morning or do you think they will delayed at platform 4 on top of leaving earlier?

 

[JonathanH]

I have just looked at the timetable for my local station (Caterham), and, not surprisingly, it has gone downhill. All off peak services (xx.09, xx.26, xx.39. xx.56) have been retimed to start 2 minutes earlier. But they just spend an extra 2 minutes at Purley and depart Purley at the same time as before. The peak splitters maintain the extra 3 minutes early departure time, which is entirely unnecessary. Peak-time delays are caused by the South Croydon-East Croydon platform 4 bottleneck, or Windmill Bridge Junction hold-ups. What has happened to progress on the railways?

It looks to me as if the trains leave Caterham earlier because the arrival times there are slightly amended and the change in departure times avoids a conflicting movement.

Prior to timetable change

Arrivals xx07, xx28, xx37, xx58
Departures xx09, xx26, xx39, xx56

After timetable change

Arrivals xx12, xx25, xx42, xx55
Departures xx07, xx24, xx37, xx54

The Victoria stands at East Croydon to let the London Bridge to Horsham train pass it. The London Bridge leaves there earlier but has extra time at Norwood Junction and Purley.

All part of sharing the slow lines with Redhill services in an efficient manner by the looks of things.

 

[sarahj]

You missed out the signalling problems at Victoria station on Friday night. But then there have been so many incidents going on, trying to remember them all must be something.

That evening I got to Clapham Junction and it said next train to Hove was 8.52 and Haywards Heath was 8.53. It was 8.50 and on the platform was the 8.30 to East Grinstead.

Someone was telling everyone,via the tannoy, to get this train and change at East Croydon.

At Clapham Junction or East Croydon, I saw that there was signalling issues at Wivelsfield. I did wonder why this was affecting East Grinstead trains so much. At Croydon I got in 21.05. At 21.06 I saw that their was a Brighton train at 21.07. Running across the slippery footbridge I got to the platform and no train but one was pulling into platform 4, this being the 21.08, so up to the footbridge again.

Managed to get on it in time and it then waited until a Gatwick Express come passed some 3-4 minutes later. Turns out the 20.53 was cancelled. Not sure which train was the 20.52 to Hove and if that ever ran.

Eventually reached Haywards Heath and I saw on the departure board problems at St Pancras. Just at this point the station announcer mentioned problems at Victoria.

There were no announcements surrounding the delays on the trains but if the blackberrys were still switched off that might explain why.

EDIT: I see they weren't switched off everywhere so I don't know the reasons for no announcements. The East Grinstead train had a guard but he just made regular announcements.

There may have been more on Friday, but I was done by 21.10, and since I dont have a work phone, what I cannot see, I cannot know. Only knew the issues at Wiveslfield as they were mentioning them as I walked out the door.

 

[infobleep]

There may have been more on Friday, but I was done by 21.10, and since I dont have a work phone, what I cannot see, I cannot know. Only knew the issues at Wiveslfield as they were mentioning them as I walked out the door.

I don't blame you for not knowing. When it will happens, I'm sure it's hard to keep up to date and that's with a working mobile that has reception.

How did people cope for mobiles were invented?

 

[southern442]

At Clapham Junction or East Croydon, I saw that there was signalling issues at Wivelsfield. I did wonder why this was affecting East Grinstead trains so much. At Croydon I got in 21.05. At 21.06 I saw that their was a Brighton train at 21.07. Running across the slippery footbridge I got to the platform and no train but one was pulling into platform 4, this being the 21.08, so up to the footbridge again.

If anything, because they share the same route north of Croydon, and also probably in quite some part due to the bottleneck at East Croydon. This is a perfect example of what I have been saying about this station. It is too small for the number of trains that use it and more platforms should be a priority.

 

[infobleep]

If anything, because they share the same route north of Croydon, and also probably in quite some part due to the bottleneck at East Croydon. This is a perfect example of what I have been saying about this station. It is too small for the number of trains that use it and more platforms should be a priority.

In this case the bottle neck isn't at the station platforms as East Grinstead trains don't use the same platforms as the south coast trains.

 

[gtr driver]

In this case the bottle neck isn't at the station platforms as East Grinstead trains don't use the same platforms as the south coast trains.

Yes but they do share something called the Up and Down Brighton Fast just north of there, as well as platforms at Clapham Junction and Victoria.

 

[Sunset route]

Yes but they do share something called the Up and Down Brighton Fast just north of there, as well as platforms at Clapham Junction and Victoria.

Down & Up Brighton (VASC) / Victoria (TBASC) Fast lines fringe being Thonton Heath-Norburry

 

[infobleep]

Yes but they do share something called the Up and Down Brighton Fast just north of there, as well as platforms at Clapham Junction and Victoria.

They do but that's not a platform issue at East Croydon and I don't see how adding platforms at East Croydon would solve platform issues at Clapham Junction, if there are any.

 

[LBSCR Times]

They do but that's not a platform issue at East Croydon and I don't see how adding platforms at East Croydon would solve platform issues at Clapham Junction, if there are any.

No, but an extra platform AND resignalling / realigning north of East Croydon would solve a lot.
At present all moves on the Fast lines north oF East Croydon can be subject to delay by late running from either Victoria or London Bridge, compounded by Platform 2 being used by services in both directions, can cause a hold up at Selhurst Junction.
The extra platform would be for Fast line services.

 

[Class377/5]

There a plan for East Croydon in CP6 then Clapham Junction in CP7. Both are huge pieces of work.

 

[southern442]

In this case the bottle neck isn't at the station platforms as East Grinstead trains don't use the same platforms as the south coast trains.

But there would be plenty of platform alterations. It isn't uncommon for any train that runs via Redhill to be routed to platform 5, and there are several scenarios where a rerouted train will go to platform 6, then the next train due in will be delayed as a result of that. And, as you said, there are other problems, such as the junctions at Selhurst, and the fact that they share mainline tracks north of there, whcih probably should be blamed for the brunt of the knock-on delays on other lines.

 

[infobleep]

But there would be plenty of platform alterations. It isn't uncommon for any train that runs via Redhill to be routed to platform 5, and there are several scenarios where a rerouted train will go to platform 6, then the next train due in will be delayed as a result of that. And, as you said, there are other problems, such as the junctions at Selhurst, and the fact that they share mainline tracks north of there, whcih probably should be blamed for the brunt of the knock-on delays on other lines.

I've never been on a train that went into platform 5 or 6 but then I don't travel on every train, every day. I wasn't aware it was possible to get from the lines to platform 1 and - 4 to 5 and 6 as the East Grinstead trains always seem to take a different line north of East Croydon.

 

[sarahj]

At last, I have a new work phone. Its big and has an orange cover. One of the apps is Tyrel, trouble is it needs a password, and no-one knows what it is.:roll:

 

[southern442]

I've never been on a train that went into platform 5 or 6 but then I don't travel on every train, every day. I wasn't aware it was possible to get from the lines to platform 1 and - 4 to 5 and 6 as the East Grinstead trains always seem to take a different line north of East Croydon.

I believe that there is a connection, but obviously as it's at ground level it wouldn't be fit for a regular service.

 

[Stats]

This is a worrying comment in ORR's latest NR Monitoring Report published last week.

An emerging concern is the new GTR timetable, to be introduced
on 13 December 2015. This will make significant changes to off-
peak services across the franchise and we have identified some
specific concerns.

Whilst Network Rail has provided evidence to satisfy us in a
number of areas, we remain concerned by the lack of
performance modelling and evidence of post-implementation
contingency planning. We will continue to press the company on
these issues in order to minimise the potential for further
disruption for passengers.

 

[asylumxl]

This is a worrying comment in ORR's latest NR Monitoring Report published last week.

That's amusing. The view of most customers has been confirmed by the ORR, they couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag.

 

[tsr]

I believe that there is a connection, but obviously as it's at ground level it wouldn't be fit for a regular service.

Oxted Line trains from the Slows at South Croydon can access East Croydon Platforms 2-5 going Northbound.

Going South, you can also use Platforms 2-6 to access the Slows / Oxted line.

As you say, it's not regularly done because of the massive conflict across the junctions. However, there is one train from London Victoria per weekday which uses Platform 3 at East Croydon and then heads to East Grinstead.

As for coastal services, these can use Platforms 2-6, but generally only use 4-6 overnight and early in the morning. Conflicting routes across the junctions again come into play, but also strange little quirks such as (IIRC) the lack of an RA indicator when heading South from Platform 4 at East Croydon, which is inconvenient given the number of DOO services to the Coast.

 

[87015]

That's amusing. The view of most customers has been confirmed by the ORR, they couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag.

Its the Southern/GTR planning that has totally failed all the modelling, not NR's. Really clever ideas like service groups being run with minimum turnarounds at both ends...

 

[southern442]

Oxted Line trains from the Slows at South Croydon can access East Croydon Platforms 2-5 going Northbound.

Going South, you can also use Platforms 2-6 to access the Slows / Oxted line.

As you say, it's not regularly done because of the massive conflict across the junctions. However, there is one train from London Victoria per weekday which uses Platform 3 at East Croydon and then heads to East Grinstead.

As for coastal services, these can use Platforms 2-6, but generally only use 4-6 overnight and early in the morning. Conflicting routes across the junctions again come into play, but also strange little quirks such as (IIRC) the lack of an RA indicator when heading South from Platform 4 at East Croydon, which is inconvenient given the number of DOO services to the Coast.

I have seen some strange oddities in the past. I've been on a orthbound train form the Oxted line at platform 2, and platform 3 before, and i have boarded a northbound train at platform 3, although, as mentioned, this can happen because most of the tracks around the area are bi-directional. Never seen a southbound use 4 before though.

 

[Sunset route]

I have seen some strange oddities in the past. I've been on a northbound train form the Oxted line at platform 2, and platform 3 before, and i have boarded a northbound train at platform 3, although, as mentioned, this can happen because most of the tracks around the area are bi-directional. Never seen a southbound use 4 before though.

Some signallers will stick close to the plan without deviation for fear of criticism, while other will ab-lib it and use the layout to its full potential to get/keep trains moving. Thus there can be trains going all different directions from strange platforms. As long as the station controller is advised in time to get the passengers across in time anything is possible, last minute changes to which island your using are to be avoided at all costs.

 

[physics34]

Its the Southern/GTR planning that has totally failed all the modelling, not NR's. Really clever ideas like service groups being run with minimum turnarounds at both ends...

someone needs to tell them you cannot run a railway on a shoestring......

no spare drivers or conductors
minimum turnarounds
no spare stock
no spare sidings/berthing points to leave stock
no spare terminus station space
no slack in the timetable
not enough alternative routes.

I know alot of these arent easy fixes but a few of them with a bit of effort can be accomplished.

This new timetable is meant to slightly improve things, but with no changes during the peak, disruption will continue.

Thameslink/the core will also help a couple of these.

 

[asylumxl]

Its the Southern/GTR planning that has totally failed all the modelling, not NR's. Really clever ideas like service groups being run with minimum turnarounds at both ends...

Where did I even mention Network Rail?

I was referring to Govia, which I thought was quite clear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

someone needs to tell them you cannot run a railway on a shoestring......

Well the only people who can really mandate improvements are the government. Since they will have chosen Govia based on them offering the lowest costs and highest premiums, I imagine they're likely to do absolutely nothing about it.

 

[physics34]

Where did I even mention Network Rail?

I was referring to Govia, which I thought was quite clear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well the only people who can really mandate improvements are the government. Since they will have chosen Govia based on them offering the lowest costs and highest premiums, I imagine they're likely to do absolutely nothing about it.

yeah, expect many years of chaos then.

Staff shortages at current levels are unacceptable

 

[zoneking]

yeah, expect many years of chaos then.

Staff shortages at current levels are unacceptable

This morning the Redhill / Reigate shuttle trains were cancelled and one of the Tonbridge trains due to staff shortages. However, an empty train went to Reigate from Redhill and back again (empty). This delayed the 07.28 GWR to Reading. Total confusion at Reigate with passengers on both platforms waiting for a London bound train.