Another driver asleep on Croydon Tramlink

[Antman]

If by "In the past" you mean on a traditional tram then falling asleep would be more or less impossible as the drivers were mostly stood up and sometimes in the open.
The thing that strikes me is that we are hearing a lot about Croydon tram drivers but not about Metrolink, Nottingham, Sheffield and so forth. So surely it is worth considering whether the routes, the trams the working hours or some combination are especially conducive to this in Croydon.

The results of such a study should be useful to staff unions and management.

We're hearing a lot more about Croydon because people are paying more attention to drivers after last years fatal accident.

 

[455refurb]

This surely indicates a failure on the part of senior management at First Trams. To my mind, it's not the fault of the drivers if they are being forced to work a shift pattern which does not permit them to manage their fatigue properly.

Given this is the latest of many incidents of this nature, surely TfL need to step in here and take direct control of the operation. I can't see how they can still have confidence in the management there.

 

[Busaholic]

We're hearing a lot more about Croydon because people are paying more attention to drivers after last years fatal accident.

Not entirely true - there were incidents reported to TfL prior to the fatal one (at least one just a few days before) including video footage. These may have only come into the public domain after the crash, but there were certainly individual passengers who took it seriously and were doing their best to bring it to the attention of officialdom. Allegations of scaremongering are then thrown around on here and elsewhere, though I haven't noticed any of the injured or relatives of the deceased taking this attitude: until then, I'll be contemptuous of those who throw the allegations around.

By the way, is there anyone still around who doesn't think the role of the tram operator will not come under great scrutiny in the near future?

 

[endecotp]

if this driver was indeed prosecuted the trams would grind to a halt overnight.

Better that than another fatal crash.

Actually, I think I might support a total shutdown until the problem is properly investigated. Multiple fatalities and serious injuries, remember.

 

[Antman]

Better that than another fatal crash.

Actually, I think I might support a total shutdown until the problem is properly investigated. Multiple fatalities and serious injuries, remember.

The scaremongering on here is just ridiculous, do you really think people would still be using tramlink if it were unsafe?

 

[Antman]

This surely indicates a failure on the part of senior management at First Trams. To my mind, it's not the fault of the drivers if they are being forced to work a shift pattern which does not permit them to manage their fatigue properly.

Given this is the latest of many incidents of this nature, surely TfL need to step in here and take direct control of the operation. I can't see how they can still have confidence in the management there.

Do you actually have any evidence or is this just more conjecture?

 

[NickBucks]

Perhaps TfL and the London Mayor should take this in hand and get these trams automated as soon as possible. That would reduce significantly the risks when a human being is involved. It would also avoid the heartache for the families of those killed in the recent incident whose loss seems to have been forgotten in the usual posturing we get from both sides on this forum when an incident like this occurs.

 

[Antman]

Perhaps TfL and the London Mayor should take this in hand and get these trams automated as soon as possible. That would reduce significantly the risks when a human being is involved. It would also avoid the heartache for the families of those killed in the recent incident whose loss seems to have been forgotten in the usual posturing we get from both sides on this forum when an incident like this occurs.

Automated? Would did you have in mind?

And just to be clear this thread isn't about the fatal accident which is still under investigation.

 

[Moonshot]

What exactly is the shift pattern for Croydon tram drivers ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps TfL and the London Mayor should take this in hand and get these trams automated as soon as possible. That would reduce significantly the risks when a human being is involved. It would also avoid the heartache for the families of those killed in the recent incident whose loss seems to have been forgotten in the usual posturing we get from both sides on this forum when an incident like this occurs.

How quickly do you think the Croydon tram system can be 'automated' ?

 

[Khxds]

So you see a the Driver of your Tram asleep and the first thing you reach for is your phone hock:

You sit there filming and swearing about it rather than knock on the glass and wake him up

What has this world come to.

so you knock on the window straight away.. the driver wakes up and carries on, with no proof of what you've witnessed when it comes to reporting it. how can you think that's the best course of action? as has been mentioned earlier the passengers did both, otherwise there would have been trams bunched up right up to East Croydon station.

 

[WatcherZero]

What exactly is the shift pattern for Croydon tram drivers ?

From what ive heard
6-9 hour daily shifts, one week at a particular time two days rest then the following week at a different booking on time, if asked to work 7 days got an extra 2 days (i.e 4) break the following week).

 

[DriverToBe]

Where I work its max shift of 10 hours, 4.5 hours drive before a minimum 30 minutes break (normally more) 11 hours off between shifts (normally much more) and a minimum of 30 hours rest per week.
Coming from the bus industry I can say I always feel much more rested now than I ever did on the buses.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah, that's the EU driving regs your on.

 

[waterboo]

I understand that some people believe that there was a possibility of a 'medical emergency', but stick to the belief that the driver has fallen asleep, and I am firmly in the conviction that there is no defending what the driver has done in this video.
People are very quick to blame management, but at the very end of the day, the ultimate safety of the passengers falls to the responsibility of the driver who has clearly failed in his role. Drivers consent to the working hours as clearly stated in the FirstTrams contract, and by agreeing to that contract they have to ensure that they provide their full attention during those working hours. They have the right to refuse the service under the grounds that they are too tired to operate it, and I understand that drivers may fear that the management may give them a hard time for it, but then it leads again to the point that the drivers absolute priority must be the safety of all passengers regardless.

 

[Poolie]

So, if I was a tram/train/bus driver (and I'm not) and I had fallen asleep due to medical or other reasons and I was awoken by knocks on the door/window, I think I would realise and terminate the tram/train/bus and step down from duties for the medical or other reasons. This could then be investigated and outcome awaited. For whatever the reason, a duty of care must apply and help/counselling offered.
Surely in this social media age it must taught in training about mobile phone filming and the potential consequences?

 

[philthetube]

When S stock underground trains were being designed one thing the unions pushed for and got was a cab design which allowed drivers to work standing up, this is a great safety feature driving standing should be designed into all future rail vehicles.

 

[Shadow Cat]

I understand that some people believe that there was a possibility of a 'medical emergency', but stick to the belief that the driver has fallen asleep, and I am firmly in the conviction that there is no defending what the driver has done in this video.

Less about defending the driver and more about the length of time it took to check the drivers condition.

If they needed to film, then maybe 10~15 seconds of showing the driver was asleep and then bang on the window to confirm the situation of the driver, this gives better evidence than someone just sleeping as it shows him waking up

--------------

Also I'm wondering just how many people would put a complaint in (or if we would be seeing a similar news report) if the tram driver at the station prior to this incident announced something like /I'm sorry to inform passengers but this service to XXX has been terminated early due to driver fatigue/ if tramlink weren't able to find a replacement driver?

 

[bramling]

True. But the responsible thing to do is send it to Tramlink rather than get your 15 minutes of fame by sending it to the local rag.

Normally I would agree, however in the circumstances where seven people died not long ago, I'm regrettably of the opinion that the owners/operators of this system need to get their act together.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps TfL and the London Mayor should take this in hand and get these trams automated as soon as possible. That would reduce significantly the risks when a human being is involved. It would also avoid the heartache for the families of those killed in the recent incident whose loss seems to have been forgotten in the usual posturing we get from both sides on this forum when an incident like this occurs.

Easier said than done. The technology simply isn't there at the moment, at least without fully segregating the system from street running, in other words making it into a DLR operation.

An engineered safeguard monitoring speed would help, however this doesn't address the root cause if fatigue keeps being an issue. If fatigue is left unaddressed as a root caused it could cause other issues, e.g. when driving on sight but within the speed limit, or the potential for incidents when the driver is doing the doors (e.g. draggings), etc.

One way or other, someone needs to get hold of this.

 

[Antman]

I understand that some people believe that there was a possibility of a 'medical emergency', but stick to the belief that the driver has fallen asleep, and I am firmly in the conviction that there is no defending what the driver has done in this video.
People are very quick to blame management, but at the very end of the day, the ultimate safety of the passengers falls to the responsibility of the driver who has clearly failed in his role. Drivers consent to the working hours as clearly stated in the FirstTrams contract, and by agreeing to that contract they have to ensure that they provide their full attention during those working hours. They have the right to refuse the service under the grounds that they are too tired to operate it, and I understand that drivers may fear that the management may give them a hard time for it, but then it leads again to the point that the drivers absolute priority must be the safety of all passengers regardless.

I agree that you can't just blame it on management without any sort of evidence, if they were expecting drivers to work excessive hours for example it would be different but there is nothing to suggest that is the case.

As for the driver, I think it is unfair to say that he has failed in his role. Obviously if he had been up all night playing computer games or whatever and come into work having had little or no sleep it would be different but again there is nothing to suggest that is the case.

I'm sure we've all fallen asleep watching TV or whatever and these things happen, what can realistically be done to prevent such occurrence?

 

[Antman]

Normally I would agree, however in the circumstances where seven people died not long ago, I'm regrettably of the opinion that the owners/operators of this system need to get their act together.

And do what exactly? I don't mean to sound confrontational I am genuinely curious as to what people expect management to do?

 

[bramling]

And do what exactly? I don't mean to sound confrontational I am genuinely curious as to what people expect management to do?

Some kind of investigation to firstly establish *if* there's an underlying issue of any sort, and then measures to mitigate or address the issue. Meanwhile, interim measures.

To be fair, this is probably all already going on - however at the moment there clearly are issues, and several months have already elapsed since the derailment with not much *appearing* to be happening. This hardly inspires confidence in the way the system is operated.

 

[Antman]

Some kind of investigation to firstly establish *if* there's an underlying issue of any sort, and then measures to mitigate or address the issue. Meanwhile, interim measures.

To be fair, this is probably all already going on - however at the moment there clearly are issues, and several months have already elapsed since the derailment with not much *appearing* to be happening. This hardly inspires confidence in the way the system is operated.

Obviously we don't know what may have been going on behind the scenes but with the derailment still under investigation they can't really be taking any remedial action.

There are posters on trams with contact details if anybody has any safety concerns in the wake of the derailment.

 

[BestWestern]

Obviously we don't know what may have been going on behind the scenes but with the derailment still under investigation they can't really be taking any remedial action.

There are posters on trams with contact details if anybody has any safety concerns in the wake of the derailment.

I would think they certainly can be taking action. They know the driver of the crash tram lost his situational awareness, and we've now had a number of reports of drivers very obviously severely fatigued on the job. Regardless of the report, management should already be looking at why those fatigue issues exist, and what they can do about it.

 

[fabs]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here. What is the general consensus if the root cause of fatigue is something along the lines of length of commute (it is the employees decision as to where he lives in relation to workplace, I get that it's more difficult in the London area). Or if they have a permanent family situation that is fatiguing, is it the employee or employer that is responsible for being fit for duty and in charge of passengers lives?
If rosters, links and diagrams are legal and comply with necessary union rostering/manning agreements is management of fatigue a personal responsibility?
FWIW my take is that it is an employers responsibility to ensure work patterns are legal and there is a reasonable level of duty of care. Unions responsibility to ensure the company are staying on the right side of the law and agreements. But you can't get away from the personal responsibility that crew have to their passengers. If your life doesn't fit with the job you applied for and you are dangerous you have no right being in charge of anyone's safety.
CAVEAT - I make no assumptions on what happened here or the crash and await the official investigation.

 

[LeeLivery]

The scaremongering on here is just ridiculous, do you really think people would still be using tramlink if it were unsafe?

As someone who works in Croydon, many people do think its unsafe.

Many reports of speeding by passengers before the crash and yesterday BBC London said they've had 4 Tramlink drivers telling them they've fallen asleep, and another saying he isn't surprised by this and believes most drivers have fallen asleep in their career. Drivers don't want to report fatigue and public confidence in the network is small right now, Tramlink clearly has problems. I'm afraid calling it scaremongering is just burying your head in the sand.

 

[LeeLivery]

So, if I was a tram/train/bus driver (and I'm not) and I had fallen asleep due to medical or other reasons and I was awoken by knocks on the door/window, I think I would realise and terminate the tram/train/bus and step down from duties for the medical or other reasons. This could then be investigated and outcome awaited. For whatever the reason, a duty of care must apply and help/counselling offered.
Surely in this social media age it must taught in training about mobile phone filming and the potential consequences?

Precisely, if he drove beyond George Street (the next stop), not suggesting he did, but if he did, that is inexcusable. It is said "many people got off" for their own safety, whether he continued seems to be unclear.

 

[philthetube]

Assuming tram drivers driving hours are the same as for bus drivers, (as someone posted earlier) they are ridiculous and if staff are being allowed to work close to this,

10 hours max driving/working duties a day
8.5 hours rest between shifts on 3 occasions, 10 hours on the rest
1 24 hour rest period every 2 weeks, (this does not have to be a full day, could be 2pm one day to 2pm the next.

Effectively, and I am assuming the earlier post was correct tram drivers could work 70 hours a week every week.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hours-passenger-vehicles/2-great-britain-domestic-rules

 

[Dave1987]

With modern day society and the public wanting services to run from the very early hours of the morning to very late at night fatigue is always going to be an issue for those that work in industry that provides those services. People who work office hours Monday to Friday have that wonderful thing called a body clock. People who work varied shift patterns who swap constantly do not. Who is to say this chap did not have a good night sleep because his child was ill? Jumping to conclusions and demanding he be locked up is utterly ridiculous. It should be investigated properly and appropriate action taken.